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I was wondering this today
Do Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is/was perfect?
Do they believe that Moshiach will be perfect?
I have the utmost respect for the ba’al hatanya, Rav Dovber and the tzemach tzedeck. I own most of their maamarim and the ones i don’t own it’s because Kehot hasn’t republished them.
I have the utmost respect for the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe.But anybody who believes that the Rebbe is moshiach is bordering on apikorsus and is outside the fold of Yiddishkeit entirely. And that’s why it’s so scandalous that people talk about it.
No human being is perfect, not even Moshe Rabeinu, who made mistakes and erred at times.
Though these actions might be perceived as sins due to Moshe Rabeinu’s elevated spiritual level, beyond our basic comprehension, as we are so removed from the Dor Hamidbar, the Torah still acknowledges them as such.
This is one of the remarkable aspects of the Torah – its honesty. Unlike other religious texts, which often idealize their leaders and avoid mentioning their faults, the Torah, as Toras Emes, presents its leaders as fallible and capable of making mistakes
querty,
I may be new to this thread, but I’m not new to the CR.
Not exactly my thing to involve myself in these types of discussions.
To 2scents
I am new to the CR(about two weeks) so I wasn’t familiar with your handle. I greatly appreciate your rational approach to the subject.qwerty,
What I posted earlier is what I heard from Harav Avigdor Miller Zt”l.
To 2scents
Thanks for that tidbit. I’m quite familiar with Rabbi Miller’s teachings as I spent thirty years in the yeshiva of his Talmud muvhak. It’s interesting that Rabbi Miller was a fan of Chabad and the Rebbe but I think he wasn’t aware of their more outlandish doctrines.2scents,
I’m quite familiar with Rabbi Miller as I spent 30 years learning with his Talmid Muvhak. Rabbi Miller was a fan of the Rebbe and Chabad but if he fully understood both the individual and his followers I’m sure he would have changed his position.
2acents
I asked the Lubavitchers on this site to which none of them answered the question
I would really like to know their opinion
@coffee addict: to answer your question, i believe the rebbe was a tzadik gamur like the tanya explains and i beleive moshiach will be a tzadik gamur. see derech mitzvosecha mitzvas מינוי מלך. i dont know what you mean by perfect.
@emunas 1: can you please explain what makes such a beleif wrong? does it controdict one of the 13 ikrim and why? (or is it just an argument in pshat of a gemara)To coffee addict
First let me say to you and 2scents, I’m really jealous of your cool handles. Just kidding. To your point. There’s a Klal Godol, no Lubavicher will ever respond to any question raised by someone they perceive as an opponent(snag.) I learned that when I posted on VIN. They assume we’re trying to trap them(in a sense we are, ie we want them to admit that their theology is a lie.) They feel that the safest play is to ignore the questions and they’ll disappear.“But anybody who believes… … …is outside the fold of Yidishkiet entirely.”
Yeah, yeah, blah, blah. This tired excuse keeps coming up. It is completely false. Jews do not do inquistions. We don’t have a belief police. If someone is missionizing or has a teaching position, then we would ask for clarification on certain trends. But we don’t demand of anonymous people in any group to confirm their fidelity to the mainstream beliefs. And someone who doesn’t advertise his doubts is definitely fully within the fold. I don’t how they judge doubtful or propagandized heresey in the World To Come. But I do know that they severely punish slander. Even when it is directed at those with questionable theologies.
Dear Coffee,
It’s bad etiquette to ask online people their personal beliefs.
To seichel83
Coffee addict asked if the Rebbe and/or Moshiach will be perfect. Perfect means that they never do or say anything wrong. This is what L’Havdil the Christians say about Yoshka. Perfect means that whatever the Rebbe said cannot be wrong or questioned. To call him a Tzaddik Gomur evades the question because it doesn’t address whether said person is infallible. Again a classic case of Chabad dodging the subject. One more point. Don’t you know the spelling rule that it’s “i” before “e” except after “C”?
I’d be happy to respond within the limited confines of this forum:
1) For thousands of years, Jews have argued with Christians against J-s being moshiach. One of the major arguments was that he died without a redemption. The Christians respond that he will come back a second time to complete it. This is precisely the argument that the modern-day Lubavitchers are making regarding the Rebbe, z”l. If you combine this idea with the Rebbe’s statement רב” – הוא זה שמקושר עם עצמות ומהות א”ס ב”ה, and that we do not have to connect to Hashem, but only to the Rebbe, we’re not too far off from the Christian belief.
This is not to say that a Rebbe is not a vehicle to bring a person closer to Hashem, because he is, and this is likely what the Rebbe meant. But the language in the Maamar can be quite dangerous.2) Even if we do accept that Moshiach can be someone who has died, the argument that there are much greater people among the dead than the Rebbe is very strong. The common Lubavitcher argument is that Moshiach needs to come from the generation of Moshiach. This argument might have worked in 1995, but we’re 25 years later. Many, if not the majority of Lubavitchers today have never seen the Rebbe. In another twenty years, if Moshiach has not come yet, C”V, the situation will be even worse. Will they continue to say that the Rebbe is the gadol of their generation, having died 25/45 years prior? That’s absurd, and it against everything the Ba’al Shem Tov stood for.
And by the way, עקבתא דמשיחא started with the Baal Shem Tov, although there are references prior to him as well. If you’re going to say that we are still in the generation of the Rebbe, then you can very easily say that we are in the generation of the Baal Shem Tov. He was much greater than the Rebbe; as the Beis Avrohom said, if he had lived during the time of the Avos, there would have been four. But people don’t go around saying that the Baal Shem Tov is Moshiach.3) Gedolim, including gedolei hador, mekuballim throughout the generations, have been wrong about Moshiach’s arrival. Countless people have made calculations and been wrong. The Rebbe said that Moshiach’s arrival is imminent. But for Hashem, who lives outside of time, imminent is a relative concept (a thousands years being a day, for example; of course this as well is only a moshol). If all those gedolim who predicted Moshiach’s arrival were wrong, the Ramban and others, why can we not accept that the Rebbe was wrong as well?
Dear Qwerty,
If you make up the subject, (Is the Rebbe perfect?) you can’t require the other party not to dodge. Being that this is not a subject on Chabad, he is entitled to think it has no bearing on the matter.
The Christians are not non-Jews because of your classification. It is because they classified themselves as out of Judaism. It gets very muddy when we want to exclude those who think they are included. Unless you convince him to leave or return because of your argument, you are waiting for him to leave on his own. Unless you can come up with some hard and fast rule for what makes one a Jew. There was major debate in the last century on just this issue. Nobody settled it.
Dear Emunas,
1) Except that Chabad isn’t calling us to debate them. So no comparison unless you think that beliefs is some kind of spiritual team sport.
2) Are you predicting the future? And what did the Baal Shem Tov stand for?
3) Or maybe The Rebbe was trying to achieve a different goal with all his messianic talk.
Nomesora — indeed none. Not even from the seforim. I have news for you. There are beliefs that place a Jew outside Judaism. Look in Hilchos Teshuvah by the Rambam, to start with.
Dear Mdd,
I don’t follw the first line of your post.
That is not the correct way to read the Rambam.
You know the Rambam wrote about belief at length. He also wrote the Moreh.
It’s fallacious to quote the one liners from the Rambam on belief.
And, the Rambam clearly places all these heretics within the fold.
To Nomesora
Let’s get the facts straight. Coffee addict asked if Lubavichers think the Rebbe is/was perfect and if Moshiach will be perfect. The implication of perfection is that he will be unlike any human who has ever lived, because, as 2scents said(according to Rabbi Miller) even Moshe Rabbeinu “sinned.” I then told Coffee addict that no Lubavicher will answer his question and, true to form, Seichel83 changed the narrative by referring to the Rebbe as a Tzaddik Gomur which has nothing to do with infallibility. So feel free to dodge any question you want, but at 120 you’ll have to answer them. Finally, mddi is absolutely correct, beliefs that are antithetical to the Torah place one outside the realm of Torah Judaism.
To No Mesorah
“And the Rambam clearly places all these heretics within the fold.”
What is that supposed to mean? That Rambam would consider a Jew for J in the fold of Judaism if his mother was actually Jewish? That’s not exactly a Chiddush. The problem is that such a belief likely(assuming he’s not a Tinok Shenishba) costs one his Cheilek in Olam Habo.n0mesor,
1) Of course the comparison is uncanny in many ways. And it makes not one iota of difference that Chabad is not calling on us to debate them. All of the responses that we have given missionaries for thousands of years show the falseness of their arguments today. And they have taken away one of the main arguments that anti-missionary activists can use against people trying to convert the innocent to Christianity.2) I am not predicting the future. If you want to know what the BST stood for, learn Chassidus.
3) I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
Sechel,
There were other “tzaddikim gemurim” (one was even Shlomo’s son I think) so they should be moshiach (they’ll come back from the dead to do all those things)
Qwerty,
What’s my handle?
@emunas did you even learn exactly what the rebbe said or you just saw it in the dumb book of kefira written by a sonei yisroel?
dumb questions, but im still waiting for a source about theses debates with Christians.
and if you have one, well there are many more reasons why yashke cant be moshiach, and you will still need to answer the gemarah, but first lets start with the source,
2) we find in gemarah many times when goyim asked yidden questions and they just gave them an answer to push them away, its not a source, see i.e sanhedrin beginning of perek chelek, meseches tamidaobviouly the rebbe could have made a mistake, we see sometimes he corrected himself when speaking and writing, i dont even understand what you’re trying to ask.
if you mean that i should judge the rebbe chas vishalom, well look in pirkei avos. for mw whatever the rebbe says is kodesh hakodashim! just like gemarah!
and if you think im crazy, well see mechilta parshas bishalach, and brisk says the same type of statements, and im sure other litvaks.
and can you answer this simple question: some litvaks said that beleiving moshiach can come from the dead is kefira, some litvaks take what they said and disregard a clear gemara, can you explain how that is not more extreem with what i wrote.Dear Qwerty,
One can claim that the Rebbe is perfect even though he sinned and still play your game. All inferences are your own. Nobody has to think that their beliefs follow your logic. People have illogical beliefs and there is nothing you or anyone can do about it. Some believe that the only way to achieve perfection is through sin.
I didn’t dodge anything. I love these topics.
Beliefs that are antithecial to Judaism includes blurring the distinction between weekdays and Shabbos. How extreme are you in theological exclusions? The Realm of Torah Judaism is what in the words of Chaal?
I pointed out on the PEW thread (As well as many times in the past.) that we do not have any thought police of an individual Jew anywhere in halacha. It is only an issue when in a leadership role.
Jews for J would not be in the fold. They are not included in ‘Amisecha’. Many sources for that. But losing Olam Habaah over beliefs does not take one out of the fold. We still are required to treat them like Jews as long as there is no spiritual danger in associating with them.
Nomesorah, those are not one-liners. And the apikorsim and minim are not considered in the fold! If one of them mekadesh a bas Yisroel, then indeed the kiddushin is good, but in many other ways he is not in the fold. You are so ignorant about so many things.
Sechel83, from which volume of the Rebbbe’s writings does the source have to be? Because things which are known in the rest of Klal Yisroel are not known or authoritative to you.Sechel83, the more of your statements I see, the more anti-Chabad I become.
To Seichel83
So you agree that the Rebbe can make a mistake. Great, we’re getting somewhere. Now you wrote in a different thread that if a Misnaged does all the things that Moshiach is supposed to do, you’ll accept him. This implies that these things haven’t yet occurred. This said, how can some of your fellow Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is already Moshiach while others believe it’s only a matter of time? The only reason for these beliefs is that the Rebbe said or hinted that he’s Moshiach. But you just admitted that the Rebbe could be wrong. So combining the Rebbe’s fallibility with the “FACT” that the Rambam’s criteria haven’t been met eliminates the suggestion that the Rebbe “IS” Moshiach. That he could come from the dead, perhaps, but that’s a different subject.
sechel,
The paste in the Hebrew was taken literally out of the sicha which is posted online. https://www.chabad .org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/2988061/jewish/page.htm
As for a source, see vikuach haramban: https://hebrewbooks.org/22088 p.34 (page 35 of the PDF), the large paragraph starting in the middle of the page. If you read it carefully, then you understand that his entire argument is based on this idea that moshiach can’t be J-s because he died and the world is still not peaceful, etc.
As for your argument that this can’t be a source because it is a discussion because it’s a discussion with the goyyim, this would be true if it were second-hand. But when the Ramban published it himself in לה”ק, he made it into a valid source.
n0mesora:
I don’t want to get pulled back into the Chabad debate, but what you’re saying completely transcends it. If you want to say Chabad’s beliefs are fine and kosher, then go ahead, but you’re actually claiming that the halachah has no concept of kefira whatsoever. Other than being completely untrue, this line of reasoning should offend both sides of this thread.Someone absolutely can be pasul from aidus on the basis of beliefs alone if they make them public. Would you eat the food of Jew for Jesus as long as he otherwise kept halacha? Judaism doesn’t care about belief according to you, right, so why not? What about an openly proud atheist who happens to keep halacha out of a sense of tradition (like the original idea of Reconstructionism)?
We don’t have to put people under a microscope and try to figure out their beliefs. It sounds like someone probably told you this at one point and you erroneously assumed it to mean that people can believe whatever they want and it doesn’t matter.
To Seichel83
We’re still waiting for your answer. You acknowledged in a different thread that Rambam’s criteria for Moshiach have not been met. How then can Lubavichers declare that the Rebbe is Moshiach?
Dear Neville,
You have my perspective completely wrong.
“Halacha has no concept of kefira”
It clearly does.
“Passul from aidus”
Rambam Eidus 11:10
“…beliefs alone if they make them public.”
Quite the qualifier.
“Jews for J”
Is a clear mumar. Even if he keeps everything.
“Judaism doesn’t care about belief.”
That is not my position.
“The original idea of Reconstructionism.”
Is to take everything apart. It’s a parallel religion. They even termed it as such.
“We don’t have to put people under a microscope.”
More than that. We are allowed to ignore their opinions. Especially if it absurd.
And I will prove it to you. I have never been shy about this topic and nobody felt required to stop me at all costs. Even though it has been much more threating to some posters than anything claimed by Chabad. So there is no obligation to shut down a random person’s opinion. My take is that most of this is about our own struggles being projected onto Chabad. Why does anybody care. It works somewhat for them. And if it fails, we will not be able to help much. Do you think that our group has a much stronger theology? Do you believe that we are free of any sacred goats?
Bonus question: Do you understand why Chabad has this specific absurdity and why it was always allowed to prosper?
Maybe I should just post my whole perspective on beliefs.
Dear Mdd,
Those are one liners. The Rambam wrote many chapters on theory and two major essays on belief.
What does kiddushin prove? If one is mikadesh his sister there is no kiddushin. Obviously they must be out of the fold.
I am ignorant of so many things.
The fold here is that being Chabad has the same din of any other Yid. I thought that was a settled matter. There are some safeguards on using their geirus etc. that are put in place by Chabad itself. So obviously we trust them. What is the purpose of slandering them?
Dear Menachem,
.. questioning a tzaddik.. ..trying to understand…
I understood Tanya differently. But it’s only a small difference.
Just because I don’t question the tzaddik, it doesn’t make the tzaddik’s actions into proof for anything. Anything at all. Because who am I to know what is really going on.
Dear Emunas,
1) Christianity has the uncanny comparison to Chabad, like a dog to a dandelion. What do you prefer, scotch or bourbon?
2) It doesn’t matter where Chabad goes with Chassidus and their beliefs. As long as they stay true to the Torah, all is well. Same goes for everyone.
You said it goes against everything the Baal Shem stood for and I have no idea what you meant by that.
3) The Rebbe didn’t make a prediction. He spoke about excessively. It’s not just making a mistake. It would be abondoning his vision.
“More than that. We are allowed to ignore their opinions. Especially if it absurd.”
This is in direct contradiction to what you say earlier in the post. If he makes his beliefs public like in the case of Jews for J, it’s an issue that you can’t just ignore. If you’re dining at someone’s table for a Shabbos meal, and he admits “I actually believe there are 5 gods and 3 goddesses that created the world,” you can’t just label that as “absurd” and continue eating his food a pretending he’s acceptable in the frum world.
I’m not answering your questions about Chabad, as I stated earlier I don’t want to be a part of the Chabad war on this thread anymore. What you’re implying at face value has the potential to be far more problematic than anything Chabad does or believes. However, you only seem to apply to Chabad exclusively and no other group or belief-system.
“I have never been shy about this topic and nobody felt required to stop me at all costs.”
I’ve had people say insanely kefiradik stuff around me in-person, and I don’t stop them either, but right now you’re on the internet, so you get to hear what all those people who “didn’t try to stop you” actually think of your shittos.
The problem with Jews for J is what he did by leaving. It’s not just a belief issue. I don’t really know what they believe.
I think you misunderstood my position.
It’s amazing. After reading any of Nomesorah’s posts, I don’t have the slightest idea of what he’s trying to say. And that’s probably exactly what he wants. I sense that he’s intelligent and realizes that Chabad is a lost cause and so his only hope is to obfuscate the readership.
“The problem with Jews for J is what he did by leaving.”
What does this even mean? Left what? He never stopped identifying as a Jew. Christianity wasn’t spread to the goyim until Paul. It started out as a sect within Judaism that was considered heretical. Were you under the impression that chazal added the birkas haminim to refer only to non-Jewish religions?
How people self-identify is completely meaningless. The Essenes, Tzadokim, Early Christians all identified as Jews (and halachically were). Ironically, the only group who’s name implies an act of leaving or separating was the Perushim.
“I think you misunderstood my position.”
Would you eat the food of a polytheist who still identifies and acts as Jewish? Your opinion seems to be that unless there is some official “leaving Judaism” ceremony, then everyone is still considered fine.
to much to read today. so ill answer and explain a little for now:
disclaimer this (and any of my other posts)
is my own personal opinion, i dont speak for chabad
my beleif that the rebbe is moshiach has 2 aspects.
1) based on what chassidus is, which is penimius hatorah, its the deepest level of torah called yechida. it reveals סתים דקוב”ה סתים דאורייתא סתים דישראל. and how these three are all one (answers the other attach someone had on עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף) and how nothing else exists in the world – אחדות ה. now what a rebbe means is the leader of the generation who has the neshama called yechida haklalis and he reveals by everyone in the generation their yechida shebinefesh to some extent in galus, this will be complete when moshiach comes. (based mainly on קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות) so obviously i beleive the rebbe is moshiach (chassidim always beleived this about their rebbe)
2) the rambam is writing according to halacha how we can tell if someone is moshiach. so the rambam writes ואם יעמד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו. כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה. ויכף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה. וילחם מלחמות ה’. הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח. (אם עשה והצליח ובנה מקדש במקומו וקבץ נדחי ישראל הרי זה משיח בודאי.
so in this aspect to me it seems clear thar the rebbe fit chezkas moshiach and so many rabbonim paskend too. the rebbe never finished and came moshiach vadai.
now (according to my understanding of the rambam) the rambam says that if this person who is bichezkas moshiach dies then he’s not moshiach, but that just means that from a halachik look, you may have thought he was moshiach, you only saw in him chezkas moshiach so now since he died, he’s not. but this is all in #2, meaning if im a simple jew who never learned chassidus, and only understands technical things so i have no reason to say the rebbe is moshiach now, (my whole reason when he was alive would be because i saw he fit the rambam) but since i learned chassidus b”h, and i have a deeper understanding on what moshiach is so the rebbe is prosumingly still moshiach (this does not contradict the rambam like i explained)
disclaimer; obviouly the rambam knew all this, but he wrote his sefer for every jew – כקטן כגדול – like he writes in the hakdama.
i hope i was clear enough – but see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות and likutai sichos vol 27 parshas bechukosai@emunas one: #1 read above.
#2 thanks for the source, but its talking about the idea that the Christians say moshiach already came and is was yoshke, nothing to do with this discussion, i don’t say moshiach already came. and the fact the the ramban published it, well the gemarah was also published. and back to the same question what about the gemarah? and find me a better source that the ramban said moshiach cant come from the dead!Sechel, what rabbonim outside of chabad believed that the Lubavitcher rebbe was anything close to being close to being chezkas moshiach? He did nothing mentioned in the list there, sxcept being hogeh batorah…in which case, rav shach was just as bechezkas as the Lubavitcher rebbe; actually, moreso, because he brought about more learning, spent more time being hogeh, and….his name was Menachem too!
To Menachem Shmei
Based on your postings, I’d consider you a Chabad moderate as compared, at least, to someone like sechel83. Since you started this thread I assume you’re still following it. I therefore ask you or any other Lubaviuchers who consider themselves reasonable to comment on Sechel’s explanation of why he believes that the Rebbe “IS” Moshiach.
To Menachem Shmei
This is a followup to what I wrote earlier this morning. You described yourself in the initial posting as ignorant and closed minded. In a sense, all people are ignorant to some degree and that’s why Avos teaches that we should be willing to learn from everyone. On the other hand, you call yourself close minded which means that you won’t listen to nor accept anything that goes against your previously held convictions. How do you resolve this contradiction? To put it another way, what do you hope to gain from this thread if you’re not interested in the positions of the anti Lubavichers?
Dear Neville,
“How people self-identify is completely meaningless.”
Exactly! If a yid identifies as an athiest or nilhist it doesn’t change his status until he is actually meeting certain criteria.
“Would you eat the food of a polytheist … and still acts Jewish?”
So how is he a polytheist? If he serves as such, than he is a mumar l’avodah zara and is not believed on his food. If he is a mumar for just praxis his food may also be problematic. If a Yid is certifying the food, than e can eat it. How does this prove anything?
Leaving Judaism is a problem of a mumar l’chol HaTorah as I explained in the other post. Even if he believes and worships correctly.
“…then everyone is still considered fine.”
No. It is not fine at all. But we are still included in the mainstream enough that there is no benefit to calling out theological differences.
Dear Neville,
A mumar l’chol HaTorah is one leaves the Jewish Community to live among with Akum for his own benefit. It doesn’t matter what he does or doesn’t keep. Nor does it matter what he believes in regard to Hasem, His Torah, or our purpose on Earth. That would be a min, kofer, or apikores. Just leaving makes one a mumar. It is that simple. There is need for an inter-faith roundtable to figure out why we are not Christians. It has it’s applications in kiruv et cetera, but it doesn’t matter among Torah Jews. Which is where this Chabad debate takes place. I really don’t know what you want out of this part of the argument.
Dear Sechel,
1) You are skipping a step here, so it’s not so obvious to me that it follows that The Rebbe is Moshiach. I am not fool enough to try to debate a Chabadsker online about the exact nature of Chassidus and Kabbalah. If we meet in real life, we would have a great bull session and it would be a fun, deep, and informative.
2) I don’t know why the Kabbalistic or halachic qualifications matter. In reality, we are still in Galus as much as fifty or a hundred years ago.
To Nomesorah
I’m confused. You told Sechel that you’re not convinced that the Rebbe is Moshiach and then added that you wouldn’t debate a Chabadsker online vis a vis Chassidus and Kabbalah. This would imply that you’re not Lubavitch. On the other hand, you vehemently reject the implications that Chabad is akin to Christianity. This is generally the position of a Lubavicher. Would you be kind enough to clarify who and what you stand for? If you’re just a contrarian then that’s okay, as that forces people to make clear-cut and accurate statements. By the way point number two to Seichel was spot on. When Moshiach actually comes there will be a sea change in the world. Everyone will be aware of it. Seichel posits that there’s a secret society and they alone know that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Where does that come from?
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