Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

Menachem.
“The women never mention the name of the Rebbe before washing and scrubbing their hands.
The fear of the Rebbe is rooted deeply in the chassidim, and they mention the Rebbe regarding every step they take. Anything said in the Rebbe’s name, whether regarding their spiritual life or monetary matters, is holy to them and they fulfill it with mesirus nefesh.”
This is what we all have to do, except that we have to substitute “G-d” for “Rebbe”.

Avira, sorry but I am not saying what I heard from anyone else other than Lubavicher chassidim. Those who aren’t totally blind know that the Rayatz invented a lot of what he wrote to fire up the chassidim in the dark times of Communist Russia. It helped keep them loyal (and frum!).

The story of the sundial is not a moifes story, nor something that is meant to be supernatural. It is a story that was intended to show the great SCIENTIFIC wisdom of the Baal Hatanya. The trouble is that SCIENTIFICALLY it makes no sense whatsoever. I’ll try to source it for you so you can see for yourself.

And to set things straight, although in relation to Lubavich I could certainly be considered a snag because of my opposition to them on a number of fronts (not just the Mashiach issue), in relation to chassidus I am not a snag at all. In fact I am a “card-carrying member” of a known chassidus, and clearly look the part.

I looked it up and I’ll be honest, I’m not so clear on how it’s unscientific; the claim is that the baal hatanya said that there were trees obstructing the suns rays at a certain time of day. Why is that impossible?

@sechel83 And we are all waiting for anyone to find a non-Chabad Rav who says that the Meshichist way of belief has legitimacy. someone?

““i love all misnagdim, im sorry if anyone gets offended by the term snag, its just short for misnagdim“

We know what it’s short for, and they’re both slurs. Thank you for offering proof that Chabad uses those terms so often that many in Chabad don’t even realize they’re meant to be offensive anymore. This directly refutes Menachem Shmei’s claims about how they’re never used, and how we’re just making stuff up.

Calling people misnagdim is basically calling them “the enemies.” So, the people who kept following the traditional Ashkenazi mesora somehow became “the opposition” overnight because they opted NOT to join a sectarian movement and change their minhagei avos. The entire concept is extremely one-sided and derogatory.

@sechel
Correction – not pre 96 .
It should read pre 94 instead.

Neville, i disagree; the term misnaged became something similar to yekkie; it’s no longer a pejorative for one who wears short jackets. Some use the term for litvishe in general, but it’s rare.

Menachem: “Complete lies. Anyone who said what you said and calls himself a Chabad chossid is like an Israeli knesset member who calls himself satmar.”

I can understand your surprise, but it’s the truth. The Rayatz wasn’t the first one who wrote “fiction” in order to save Yidden from leaving Torah and Mitzvos. There was R Meir/Marcus Lehman, who btw was an outstanding talmid chochom. There was R Yudel Rosenberg, who was a rov and a talmid chochom, and who is responsible for all the stories about the Maharal’s golem.

“Something tells me that although you dress chassidish, you don’t have a rebbe, but that’s just a theory.”

And it’s BH a completely incorrect theory.

Now it’s my turn to guess. Something tells me that you have never known what it is to have a live Rebbe who talks to you personally one on one. That is, I’m guessing that you came on the scene after the first stroke and therefore never faced a rebbe to his face.

Avira, I’m surprised that you didn’t see what is inherently unscientific in the sundial story, but before I explain allow me to summarize the pertinent parts of the story very briefly for those who are unfamiliar with it.

A poritz had a sundial that did not work correctly from 2 pm to 5 pm. The greatest professors could not explain why, but the Baal Hatanya could.
(That may sound as if c”v I’m denigrating the Baal Hatanya, but I am not at all. In fact, I seriously have no problem believing that a gaon who was so kadosh vetahor could have a greater understanding of science than even the greatest professors nowadays. It’s just that the explanation given in the story is nonsensical.)
He suggested that there were tall trees growing on a tall hill 12 to 15 miles to the south, and they were blocking the sun from 2 pm to 5 pm. The trees were cut down and the Baal Hatanya was proven right. (The story is longer and contains accounts of anti-Semitism and trickery, but in a nutshell that’s what happened.)

What’s wrong with the story?
1. The horizon on flat land is approximately 3 miles away. Due to the curvature of the earth no hill or trees 12 to 15 miles away could interfere with the sun’s rays hitting a sundial.
2. If when standing next to a sundial on a clear day (sundials require sun to function properly) you can’t see any obstruction such as trees on a hill, the sundial can’t see it either, and it would not affect the time shown. If something would affect the sun’s rays reaching the sundial at any particular time, you would be able to notice it with the naked eye without having to resort to experts or professors.

Rso, are you sure about the 15 miles part? I didn’t notice that in the version i read – maybe the trees were closer and visible, and it was the baal hatanya ‘s attention to detail which made him notice something everyone else overlooked.

Avira:

Nobody self-identifies as “misnagdish,” and I mean nobody. Maybe a few baal teshuvos here and there who learned the term from Chabad then graduated from Chabad without learning proper yeshivish terminology. Even if someone genuinely opposed Chassidus, why would they make their entire identity defined around their stance on a movement they don’t hold of?

If you want to say other Chassidim use the term also, fine, but they’re also being derogatory. It’s not comparable to Yekke which is a clearly defined term and is used proudly as an identity. Misnaged has no clear definition and basically just refers to anyone Chassidim don’t like, much like when socialists use the word “bourgeois.” Are non-Chassidish sphardim misnagdim? Are yekkes misnagdim? Was the Chasam Sofer misnagdish even though one of his rebbeim was the Baal HaFlaah?

@Neville
I guess I am a nobody by your logic…..
A multigenerational Litvish Jewish American, I was brought up to proudly use the term Misnagid when describing myself. In fact you will see me use it in some comments I have posted in the CR over the years.
My familial and personal opposition to Chasidus is not to its individual adherents but the practice of establishing a ‘court’ ruled by a dynasty. Just being the son or son-in-law of a leader does not make one a Talmud Chochem or a leader or anyway qualified to take over control of Millions of dollars of assets and direct the votes of followers.
I particularly object to a Chasidus where a Rebbe dies and multiple sons take the title of the XXXXer Rebbe followed by a geographic location such as Boro Park, Monsey, Yerushalayim, etc. In affect setting up Cadet branches of these non-Royal Dynasties.

AND>>>>>>I may oppose (be Neged) the Chasidus for the above reasons, but still support their Yeshivos, Hospitals, Kollelim, Bikur Cholim, Food Distributions for the poor because They are Jews and I support all Jews to the best of my financial ability. I also have cordial social interactions with members of Chabad, Satmar, Ger, Sanz and Bobov.
Here, OOT, when I was growing up the Day School choice in New Haven was Chabad. Otherwise it was public school or be shipped OOT. Never was any of the Melech HaMoshiach sentiment expressed, but The Rebbe was alive for many years after I was out of school.

“I guess I am a nobody by your logic….”

I mean, sort of, yeah. Not in a mean-spirited sense, just in the sense that you seem to be the only person in existence who defines their affiliation on the basis of a machlokes that happened centuries ago. You’re definitely the exception, not the rule.

@NevilleChaimBerlin Hey hey lay off of us Yekkes! The older crowd absolutely detests the term, probably because they recall it as an insult, “A kleineh yakkeh Yid”, and prefers a confusing mouthful like “Frankfurter am Main Juden” or some such.

@Yeserbius
My paternal side is Litvak, my mother’s Yekke, arriving in the USA back in 1868.
Oma never accepted my mother marrying a peasant from the east(with a college degree and a family that arrived in 1872).
There were strict negotiations before the wedding 80 years ago. OPA insisted that the male offspring would wear taleisim from Bar Mitzvah and the ‘gutter’ language Yiddish not be uttered in his presence

@Neville
I would never take anything you contribute as mean spirited.
As for people who describe themselves according to a makloches that occurred centuries ago, instead of Jews look at the Anglican (Church of England) Christians.
Henry wanted another Divorce, the Pope said no. Presto a new denomination with the head of the church, the head of the ruling dynasty. I have already stated my opposition to dynasties

Which Rav Yitzchok? Rav Amnon?

Ivri means – avar to the other side, so it is OK to define oneself as negative to something.

Ran across this on the wikipedia page for Lithuanian Jews yesterday when trying to figure out if my ancestors called themselves Litvaks 100 years ago as a geographic or a religious affiliation.

“Lithuania became the heartland of the traditionalist opposition to Hasidism. THEY NAMED THEMSELVES “misnagdim” (opposers) of the Hasidi. The Lithuanian traditionalists believed Hassidim represented a threat to Halachic observance due to certain Kabbalistic beliefs held by the Hassidim, that, if misinterpreted, could lead one to heresy as per the Frankists.”

If the term misnagdim was a title they created for themselves then originally it was not pejorative to them. However since it emphasizes the dangers they saw in chassidism it was perhaps originally pejorative towards them. So maybe it’s been twisted since but the discontinuance of that term seems more about Litvish accepting Chassidim today then finding it offensive.