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To n0mesorah
You stated that in your opinion Nevuah never completely ended. What gives you the right to challenge our Mesorah? It would seem that your affinity to Chabad is because you each look to tear down our traditions. When I joined this thread you insulted Rav Moshe, albeit unintentionally. You then said that you hold him in greater esteem than the Rebbe. Rav Moshe didn’t argue against Gemaras like you and the Rebbe. I put you ahead of him because you think you’re bigger than everyone.Dear Qwerty,
“.. Nevuah never completely ended.”
From the perspective of Philosophy of Judaism this would have to be assumed to be true or proven false. The debate on this thread seemed to circle around the word ‘completely’ more than the word ‘Nevuah’. I also brought The Chinuch as evidence and nobody was bothered.
“challenge our Mesorah”
You have a mesorah in these matters? Tell me! I would love to hear!
I posted why I have affinity for Chabad. We had some great times and they learn well. And they know how to chill out. Some people can’t even handle a hint of criticism. Chabadtzkers get attacked all the time and mostly just shrug it off.
But the more I see about this quote, it doesn’t seem like Chabad has the same opinion as me regarding Nevuah.
“you each look to….”
Now you have conspiracies about me! This reminds me that you never answered your flip-flop on Chabad’s intent. I stiil don’t know what you are trying to argue.
“.. tear down our traditions.”
No, I am trying to facilitate a discussion on Ikkarei Emunah.
“… insulted Rav Moshe (CH”V)”
Never happened. Go back and read it right.
“… greater esteem than the Rebbe.”
Of course. I am not Chabad. Never was.
“Rav Moshe didn’t argue against Gemaras”
I would assume so. But if we would misinterpret him at our will, then his statements would be in contradiction with many gemaras.
“like you and the Rebbe.”
I don’t know where I come in among these giants. And I don’t know what gemara you think I contradicted. And please tell me why my nature is important to this discussion. We shouldn’t insert my persona or any persona into Ikkarei Emunah.
The Rebbe knew what he was doing. You will find that a good deal of Chassidus and kabbalah seems to be contradicted by many gemaras.
“you think”
You really pretend to be a mind reader. Maybe that is your point in this thread. Tell me which person I’m thinking about and I’ll give you ten dollars.
To Menachem Shmei
Edited
you have good writing skills. In your last two posts you expressed yourself quite well. You explained that when the Rebbe spoke about god clothed in human form it simply meant that a Tzaddik can reach a state where he becomes, in a sense, one with Hashem amd therefore if one davens to the Tzaddik he obviously has Hashem in mind. Now if this is what’s meant by god clothed in human form most including myself, wouldn’t find it objectionable. The problem is that you didn’t qualify your statement when I joined the thread. Rather you stated that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form and when I challenged this you told me to study other sources which say the same thing. If, in fact, your real inyent is as you wrote in your last sicha, we’re not so far apart. I’m more amenable to Chassidish Torah since I come from Chassidim. Of course I still have issues with Chabad that I’ve raised and will continue to do so.
Finally, you’re right that neither side will concede, but my goal is to learn more about Chabad not to change you.Dear Yankel,
This was not Menachem. It was me:
I don’t know if this rule applies at all in Torah Debates. Maybe I just can’t figure out what you want. Maybe we have different interests in this discussion.
—–
Your response:
It does apply in torah debates . If there is a Taana , heard and still unanswered .Why is there no answer given ? Probably because THERE IS NO ANSWER available …Me again:
Do you have a source? When the Acharonim try to use the ‘no response as agreement’ in their teshuvos, it almost never ends like that.
I have given you at least a dozen answers that you haven’t responded back too. So I guess you admit to them all. I don’t know how well you follow things, so let me list for you some disagreements that we have. If I concede I will explicitly say so. I have no intention to keep posting the same responses to the same queries.
A) I am not Chabad. Never was. There are no Chassidim in my ancestry since at least the Nineteenth Century.
B) Most people don’t care about theology. When it is printed in some public forum, most people read right past it.
C) Associating ideas (Such as the reebe is moshiach.) with theological notions, is not theology. It is polemics or propaganda. Or it has another meaning. This thinking tool is so crucial to any conversation about the Ikkarim, that I doubt you have any real grasp on them.
D) I think that when one only sees emunah problems by one group of yidden, that it is hate.
E) My understanding is that prophecy is always attainable. The fact that we are lacking in even one prophet giving directives to others, doesn’t have any significance to me.
F) I understand most of The Rebbe’s teachings in a kabbalistic sense. I don’t know what you think about them.
G) I see Lubavitcher teachings as a whole much more traditional then most other groups.
H) Not every word of Torah that is taught is intended to fit with every other word that was ever taught.
And this is were Chabad is getting hit from both sides. When there is an internal rational for something that Chabad is already doing, (Like not sleeping in the sukkah.) then it is seen as an affront to others, Why don’t you realize that it is merely a justification for what they do, and is not intended for others (that do sleep in the sukkah)?
But then when Chabad spreads their core teachings that most groups are oblivious to, then it is “don’t you realize that we are not Chabad”?!?! So then why did you assume that the other stuff applied to you. (Chabad isn’t going around that others should not sleep in the sukkah to bring the geulah.)
And what is even funnier, is that you have a whole bunch of missionaries on this site, for Zionism, Anti Zionism, College Degrees, No Secular Education, Republicans, Democrats, Trump, and nobody tells them these are not important in my crowd. Comes along a Lubavitcher and hints to how moshiach will enlighten the world, and all of a sudden, it’s how dare you bring that up to us! We know that an Anti Zionist, Democrat like Trump with no secular education is what the world really needs!!!!!!!!!!!
It is very funny. But I think the humor is lost on too many of us. Oh well.
I wonder what Daas Yochid would think.
Menachem: “What the Rebbe is explaining is the common practice of asking a Rebbe for brochos.”
I find it hard to accept that the question the rebbe mentioned, i.e how is it possible to ask from a rebbe, was referring to brochos. Everyone has always known that any Yid can give a brocho. What else does the greeting Shalom aleichem mean if not one Yid giving a brocho to the other? I therefore find it easier to believe that he is talking about asking direct help from the rebbe, which is a form of davening to him.
And you’re right, I did not mean davening Shmoneh Esrei to him, although I imagine that the crazy who wrote “Who Elokeinu? The rebbe Melech Hamashiach, that’s who!” probably does, as well as the person I mentioned who says “Baruch Harebbe”.
“the sicha was said at a time (5710) when the Rebbe was still adamantly opposed to chassidim even considering him “Rebbe,””
Which reminds me. You never addressed my references to two books published by Lubavicher chassidim which clearly indicate that the Lubavicher rebbe wanted to be rebbe after the Rayatz. I understand that you may be reticent to accept Deitsch’s version, as he has sort of moved away from the party line, but the other was written by Shneur Zalman Gurary, and he was loyal until the end.
5783, it’s great to have you post occasionally because all Menachem’s efforts to show how reasonable and logical Lubavich theology is, are contradicted when you come along and show how radical and ridiculous it all is!
“he said that the main נבואה of this generation is that moshiach is coming ״בקרוב ממש״ and ״לאלתר״ which means very soon”
While bekarov mamash may mean very soon, le’alter means immediately, and we non-Lubavichers all believe that he hasn’t come yet. That itself shows how the “nevuah” is false.
“ounds a bit crazy”
I disagree. It doesn’t sound a bit crazy. It sounds very crazy.
n0m: “No kol korei ever accurately conveyed the wishes of the leader.”
That is an amazing sweeping statement for which I see you bringing no support. What makes you say this?
To Menachem Shmei
You singled out yankel berel and myself as Chabad bashers, but I think it’s clear that there are at least a dozen others in the thread who feel exactly the same way. So I ask you, “Why are we attacking Chabad?” And to clarify the question, as yankel berel said, it’s only a criticism of your theology, it’s nothing personal. Moreover, as I’ve said at least twice in this thread, I have no problem with any group except Chabad. So why don’t you weigh in on this question?
Menachem: “I disagree with many of your examples”
I don’s see why. They are all examples that I and others have personally witnessed. Have you never seen a Lubavicher telling a Litvak who puts on tefillin by winding it inwards, “All you care about is yourself, so you’re winding inwards. We care about others, so we wind outwards”? (It’s actually quite a funny claim, because Satmar also winds outwards, yet Lubavich were at great odds with them in the past.)
At any rate, you claim that the Lubavich shitah is the best for all Yidden, and I accept that you believe that. And that is why as a group you (perhaps not you personally) belittle other shitos. Please don’t say that you don’t – we all know that you do, especially at drunken farbrengens. But then don’t get upset with those of us who consider Lubavichers close to meisisim umadichim when they try to get us to believe what we consider nonesense, and at times apikorsus.
A) I am not Chabad….
Irrelevant to the discussionB) Most people don’t care about theology. When it is printed in some public forum, most people read right past it.
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Theology promulgated by your rabbanim and backed by your rebbi ? Theology regarding identity of mashiach ? theology re timing of his coming ? theology re existence of nevua ?
Come On ……
Seems like am older than you and have seen more than you .
Remember those times myself . ALL RELIGIOUS JEWS followed the escalating pronouncements from 770.
This argument reminds of a cave man who has never seen the sun trying to convince the guy standing outside that the sun does not exist .
I WAS THERE . I LIVED THROUGH THOSE TIMES . I MYSELF ….. You are telling me whether people were or were not paying attention ….Totally Absurd .C) Associating ideas (Such as the reebe is moshiach.) with theological notions, is not theology. It is polemics or propaganda. Or it has another meaning. This thinking tool is so crucial to any conversation about the Ikkarim, that I doubt you have any real grasp on them.
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So here you are at odds with the habad rabbanim mashpi’im and their rebbe himself . They used theology . they based it on theology . They proved it from theology .D) I think that when one only sees emunah problems by one group of yidden, that it is hate.
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Circular argument . Your statement is only valid if at the conclusion of the argument it has been established that they be’emet have no ‘problems’ [as you call them] and one still ‘sees’ clear non existent problems.E) My understanding is that prophecy is always attainable. The fact that we are lacking in even one prophet giving directives to others, doesn’t have any significance to me.
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Last recorded nevua I know of is Chagai Zecharia and Malachi.
Am happy to be updated with more [concrete names and dates please plus acceptance by klal yisrael]F) I understand most of The Rebbe’s teachings in a kabbalistic sense. I don’t know what you think about them.
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the relevant ‘teachings’ to this discussion [time of mashiachs arrival , identity of mashiach , nevua] are not kabbalistic at all .G) I see Lubavitcher teachings as a whole much more traditional then most other groups.
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How The other teachings ‘are seen’ is a matter of opinion [they might be seen by other people the same or different] and in my eyes irrelevant here . The issue I mentioned are those mashiach / nevua pronouncements mentioned before , and they are clearly ‘not traditional ‘.H) Not every word of Torah that is taught is intended to fit with every other word that was ever taught.
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So ?And this is were Chabad is getting hit from both sides. When there is an internal rational for something that Chabad is already doing, (Like not sleeping in the sukkah.) then it is seen as an affront to others, Why don’t you realize that it is merely a justification for what they do, and is not intended for others (that do sleep in the sukkah)?
—
never mentioned anything about the sukka , [although it is problematic]But then when Chabad spreads their core teachings that most groups are oblivious to, then it is “don’t you realize that we are not Chabad”?!?! So then why did you assume that the other stuff applied to you. (Chabad isn’t going around that others should not sleep in the sukkah to bring the geulah.)
—–
again , never mentioned anything about that either [although I understand where they are coming from ]And what is even funnier, is that you have a whole bunch of missionaries on this site, for Zionism, Anti Zionism, College Degrees, No Secular Education, Republicans, Democrats, Trump, and nobody tells them these are not important in my crowd. Comes along a Lubavitcher and hints to how moshiach will enlighten the world, and all of a sudden, it’s how dare you bring that up to us! We know that an Anti Zionist, Democrat like Trump with no secular education is what the world really needs!!!!!!!!!!!
—
again , never mentioned anything about that eitherTo the group
One of the topics on this thread is whether habad is ‘looking down’ on other groups . Or not .
Can add some possible relevant info .
Once spoke to a habadi hasid in EY . He told me the following .
When the Chazon Ish was niftar in 1953 . the Rebbi of Habad spoke in public about him .
Not by name . He said that there was an address to where many, many letters were sent to . And many people were answered at that address .
That is all good and fine, but we habad hasidim should remember . Even a pashute yid who learns hasidut is more important than him .
This sicha , he told me, was not printed , but remained , pnimi, internal between the habad hasidim .
End of quote.
Do with this what you want . Dismiss it . Or not.
Am only relating what I heard from a habad hasid.
If this is known to anyone , would like hear more detail …To yankel berel
No offense, but your latest sounded like it came from n0mesorah. I have no idea what you’re trying to say.
@qwerty
Simple . Question is whether the so called ‘looking down’ is a hasid initiated practice or initiated milema’ala.
If said sicha is true … , that is .
Hope that makes sense.To the group
It was like pulling teeth, but I finally got Menachem Shmei to admitthat according to the Rebbe the Nasi Hador in every generation starting with the Baal Hatanya was Chabad. Therefore the Alter Rebbe was bigger than the Gaon. The 5th and 6th Rebbes were greater than the Chafetz Chaim. Obviously that’s nonsense but the Rebbe consistently taught his Chassidim that they were superior to other Jews just as their leaders were above other Rabbis. And the joke is that Chabad tries to sell us on the idea that the Rebbe was anav mikal adam.
ARSo, if someone has heretical views, it is not okay to just let it go without challenging them.
@menachem
[Quote]
I didn’t say it about “those who have kashas on Lubavich”. I said it to explain my occasional silence on this thread (to answer the childish claim of “shtika k’hodaa (no, I don’t ch”v mean that the klal is childish. I mean that it’s childish to apply it to this context)).My point is very simple: Over the 26 pages of this thread, it is quite obvious that (some of) the opponents to Lubavitch on this thread (especially yankel and qwerty) are staunchly opposed to Lubavitch, and will attack (almost) any argument that I make.
Honestly, the same is the other way around: I am staunchly Lubavitch, and I’ll probably disagree with (almost) any attack against Lubavitch made here on the thread.
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Stop , stop please . Misunderstanding . Am NOT attacking habad as a whole.
Only certain aspects of it . They are our brothers and do have a lot to offer . Hope that’s abundantly clear from all my posts until now . Repeating this here ‘lehotsi miliban …
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This is the reason why this thread (and many other similar threads) are just going in circles with endless arguments and questions. Questions that are really meant as תירוצים for explaining the “problems with Lubavitch” or the “maalos of Lubavitch” (from each side respectively).
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Here we get to the kernel of the issue .
we are NOT discussing the ma’ala vs. the chisaron of habad . Far from it . If you think that , you are missing the point . The ma’ala is agreed on .
The argument is whether there is something problematic here [irrespective of the maala] or not . We say there is , you say there is not .
——
Therefore, when I’m being pummeled by dozens of questions on many different ideas, and I know that most of what I say won’t actually change the minds that are already set – I’m not really interested in working on answering every single question.To say that this implies some sort of admission of guilt is ridiculous.
———-
“Shtika ke hoda’a” is referring to specific arguments made , specific questions , when they are met by the chief habad defendants on this thread , menachem and nomesorah , with either totally ridiculous assertions , sidestepping [nomesorah] or ‘retreat to the bunker’ tactics [menachem].Again , not regarding habads ma’alot [of which there are many] . But of habads Chesronot or problems . When REPEATEDLY the issues are not dealt with .
The question is – why are they not dealt with ?Obvious reply is , there IS NO ADEQUATE ANSWER . Hence Shtika Ke Hoda’a ….
Now – according to Menachem there is a rebuttal – R Chaim !R Chaim absolves us from answering , because the kushiyot are teirutsim .
If someone can make head or tail of this argument , please , I am all ears ….
—-
P.S. Regarding your later point:I agree that Lubavitchers have an agenda. They feel that their derech will immensely improve the avodas Hashem of all Yidden, which is why they feel the need to spread it to anyone they come in contact with (however, I disagree with many of your examples).
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[As a Side point]
Problem is that there are strings attached to their derech .
Acceptance of a ‘personality centered ‘ avoda . As opposed to a ‘Boreh centered’ avoda .
Acceptance of totally illogical twists and turns ,designed to further their own position ,while trampling on time honored and commonsense traditions .
Acceptance of innovations and inverted realities .
.
Same derech of habad – without any of the above would find nearly no resistance .
.
BOTTOM LINE
There are valid questions raised in this thread – with NO VALID ANSWERS ….
If there are answers out there, please …..
Is it Shtika KeHoda’a ? Or Not ?Saying that the Gaon was bigger than other gedolim isn’t because nost people said so; in the gaons time, the other gedolei yisroel said that his neshoma belonged to the rishonim, and was only here to hold back yeridas hadoros, to be a sign of what Torah used to be like. When rav aharon would said shiur, he’d say “es is shtait in aleh rishonim…rashba, rambam, gaon”
The gaon was able to make a golem at the age of 10. Rav chaim velozhiner writes that he heard from the gaon that once when sleeping, he learned over 2,000 perushim on three words of a pasuk, and with one of them, he was able to understand the shoresh of every eiver and gid in every animal in the entire world. This was on par with the arizals giluyim in his time.
This wasn’t exaggeration or praise; the gaon was unlike anyone in his time, or for several hundred years prior, and the baal hatanya was after him, so it is not unreasonable for even a chasidishe yid to say that the gaon was bigger than the baal hatanya.
As for the comparison with the chofetz chaim; I can’t comment much, and the distinction isn’t as clear to mye, only that the chofetz chaim was accepted as a gadol hador by chasidishe rebbes and litvishe gedolim alike, whereas the rashab, etc..was the rebbe of Lubavitch, and was not accepted by many other communities as the gadol hador(though he was held of by basically everyone). He was definitely outstanding among chassidishe rebbes, i have no doubt about that.
To yankel berwl
Your latest posting was spot on. Menachem Shmei can’t understand that if one must twist the truth to win an argument then his atgument has no validity.
To MenachemLet’s address some of your distortions(that’s a euphemism).
I have stated in this thread that I only criticize Chabad. That’s a fact. I never said anything negative about black hatters. That’s an outright lie.
The Rebbe makes a ridiculous claim that the greatest Jew in each generation for 250 years is a Chabad Nasi and you can defend that. What gives him the right to make such a decision?
Finally, for about a qeek whwn I joined the thread you promoted the notion that the Rebbe is god and challenged me to study the sugya before I make a final decision. I told you clearly that I will never consider such a possibility. Today you flip flop and tell me that you didn’t mean the Rebbe is god what you meant is that a Tzaddik like the Rebbe can reach a state where he becomes completely attached to Hashem Now that’s not problematic so I can accept it. But it’s not what you originally said. I undestand your predicament. Sechel83 finally gave up, why don’t you do the same? The fat lady has sung.First, I’d like once again to thank YankelBerel for saying so clearly the stuff that I myself think and would like to write. Yasher koach!
As to the story that the Lubavicher rebbe said that a poshute chossid who learns chassidus is on a higher madreiga than the Chazon ish: that story has been discussed in the past on an earlier thread. It’s true that he said something along those lines. Lubavichers on the other thread tried to mitigate it, mostly unsuccessfully.
mdd: “ARSo, if someone has heretical views, it is not okay to just let it go without challenging them.”
Are you trying to say that I haven’t been challenging them?!
Menachem to qwerty: “The main ones who attack almost any argument I make (at least in the last few pages) are you and yankel.”
Hey! Did you intentionally leave me out? I’m hurt!
One question that has been basically overlooked and/or ignored by Lubavichers on this thread is why before 3 Tammuz 5754 ALL Lubavichers WITHOUT EXCEPTION were in 100% agreement that Mashiach has to be someone who is alive. Then, immediately after 3 Tammuz it was acceptable to say that Mashiach can be someone who has died? (Is it correct to put the question mark there at the end of the second sentence, when the first sentence asks “why” and the second is just a statement? On the one hand it doesn’t seem right, but on the other it does. Perhaps I should have used a semicolon instead of a period between the sentences. Oh well.)
The truth is, the most consistent view is that of the crazies who say he never died. At least they don’t have to change their original belief.
@ menachem
And the joke is that Chabad tries to sell us on the idea that the Rebbe was anav mikal adam.How is looking at your Rebbes as the greatest leaders a contradiction to anivus? Is believing that Judaism is the greatest and truest religion a contradiction to anivus?
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All depends on whether their rebbe himself guided them towards ‘looking at them as the greatest leaders’ , or not .
In the case of the chafets chaim and the gra the answer is self evident . In some other cases ….@arso
thanksMeanchem, re the books I referred to which indicated that the Lubavicher did indeed want to become rebbe –
larger than Life by Shimon (I think) Deitsch says that his parents would only agree to the shidduch if the Rayatz agreed to nominate him as the next rebbe. They knew that the Rayatz’s daughter could not bear children, so that’s the reason they agreed to the shidduch. I seem to recall the story was related by someone with the name Althoiz, who was very close to the Rayatz, and he may even have been the one who finalized the shidduch. I know that this doesn’t say clearly that the Lubavicher rebbe actually wanted to be the next rebbe, but it certainly implies that he accepted that as part of the plan. After all, unlike other chaddishe rebbes of the times who married at a much younger age, the Lubavicher rebbe was something like 25 when he got engaged, and I’m sure he had some input into the matter.
The other sefer is more explicit. I don’t remember it’s name, and I have only seen it once when it was lent to me for a few weeks close to ten years ago. It was writting – in Hebrew – by S Z Gurary aka Jimmy, who was close and even family with the Rayatz I believe. Sruprisingly, and this is why my friend lent me the sefer, it details that fights that went on behind the scenes after the petirah of the Rayatz.
To Menachem Shmei
You’re on notice. I want you to present evidence that I’m anti black hatter. All my Rabbonim wear black hats including those from YU.
Menachem: I refer to your rebbe’s statement that he was not forbidding anybody to sleep in the Sukka, just defending minhag Chabad that they don’t. However, you did not translate the whole of it. He goes to great lengths and says “Let him sleep well. ‘You shall lie down and your sleep will be pleasant’ [Prov 3,24]. He should have good dreams. Nobody should disturb him” He is obviously mocking those that sleep in the Sukka.
You complain that some “hate” Lubavitch. Unfortunately, Lubavitch has brought this problem on itself. The Gerrer Rebbe and the Chofets Chaim had great regard for each other, treating each other as equals. Similarly the Chazon Ish, Steipler, and his son; vis-à-vis the other Chasidic Rebbes of their time. I can see from this thread that Lubavitch is different: The greatest Tzaddik and Talmid Chochom is not comparable with a simple Chabadsker. After all, their leader is the Divine Messiah. Who said “No one enters the Kingdom of Heaven but through me”?Menachem, you said that 5783 is anti-Lubavich. Are you serious? He constantly toes the party-line to the extreme. Or did I mix up 5783 with someone else?
Re winding tefillin outwards: “I don’t think that this is even a true reason for our minhag. I’ve heard it mentioned before in jest.”
I have no doubt that that is not the reason for winding on tefillin in that direction, but I have definitely heard it used by Lubavichers taunting Litvaks, and not in jest.
“This is how a Lubavitcher could have worded it:
“As a group, you consider us meisisim umadichim, so then don’t get upset when we belittle your shitos.””Doesn’t the Torah command us to hate the meisis for trying to convince others to follow avodah zarah? So why shouldn’t we get upset when we see Lubavichers belittling Torah-true shitos and trying to convince others to follow shitos that we see as “questionable” at best? It’s not that we care that you’re making fun of us; non-frum Jews also make fun of us all the time. It’s that you do so in the name of Yiddishkeit and Torah.
“every Chabad yeshiva has a Gemara seder on Shabbos”
Are you sure of that? The Lubavicher once said that during the week the seder should be 1/3 chassidus and 2/3 nigleh. On Shabbos it should be the opposite. Then people wrote in to him that in a kuntres of the Rashab – I think it may have been called Eitz Chaim – it says that only chassidus should be learned on Shabbos, and he retracted it. I personally have been confronted and laughed at for learning gemoro on Shabbos. (Some of this may have changed when the Lubavicher rebbe instituted learning Rambam every day of the week.)
“Many daf yomi shiurim before shachris in Chabad shuls in Crown Heights and other communities”
You must be quite young if you’re going to cite that. Lubavich, and the rebbe, were always against daf yomi. I don’t believe there were daf yomi shiurim in any Lubavich shul in Crown Heights before 3 Tammuz.
And in regards to eating gebrokts on Pesach, and putting tefillin on in a particular way. While there is certainly no “mivtza” in those areas, Lubavichers openly tell others that it is prohibited to eat gebrokts and that they put on tefillin in a more preferred manner that others.
But it is probably just a matter of you showing you age again. All these things used to be important to Lubavichers, until the last 30+ years when the Mashiach campain took over so strongly that in many parts that is all we hear about.
Again and again, YankelBerel, you hit the nail on the head. Gedolei hador have never pushed themselves to the forefront and promoted themselves. That is something their followers and klal Yisrael did. The Lubavicher rebbe, on the other hand, promoted himself all the time.
Just a very very minor example. When the Lubavicher rebbe came out with the idea of learning Rambam, he said he would let them know how to divide up the hakdomo etc and when to start. Then when he came up with the system the first siyum “just happened” to fall on 11 Nissan, his birthday. What a coincidence for someone who never pushed himself to the forefront.
There are better examples and proofs, but I just thought I’d mention this obvious one.
To help people remember – because I myself am beginning to forget – I’d like to start a list of questions that those on our side have and that have not even been addressed by the other side, even by quoting their own sources.
In no particular order:
1. The whole concept of Nossi Hador is something that has been non-existent for centuries, and the Lubavicher rebbe reinvented it, applied it to his father-in-law and… to himself.2. The fact that his father-in-law, and by succession he himself, was/is a Navi without any proof other than the Lubavicher rebbe’s claim that the Rayatz predicted things correctly. And not to be overlooked is the fact that the Lubavicher rebbe predicted that no Yid would be killed in the 1991 Gulf War, and there was a Yid who was killed R”L.
3. It is now almost thirty years since the Lubavicher rebbe died, and more than thirty years since he last said anything. and he said that Mashiach was coming bekarov mamash and that Mashiach is around the corner. Thirty years, with Rachmomo litzlan thousands and thousands of tragedies that would not have happened had Mashiach come, is not bekarov mamash or around the corner by anyone’s calculation. Anyone, that is, except for Lubavichers.
4. The fact that before 3 Tammuz ABSOLUTELY EVERY LUBAVICHER “believed” that Mashiach has to be someone who was alive, and then on 3 Tammuz that changed.
5. There is someone in each generation who is fit to be Mashiach. Until 3 Tammuz “generation” meant what generation is generally taken to mean. After 3 Tammuz it means from the time the Lubavicher rebbe beame rebbe until Mashiach comes, regardless of how many years pass.
6. The claim of him being Mashiach based on the Rambam even though not one of the criteria of the Rambam can be definitely assigned to him. And don’t forget that WE KNOW that he is descended from Dovid Hamelech because he said so himself!
7. The Lubavicher rebbe was “forced” into becoming a rebbe, even though in a number of books written by Lubavicher it shows otherwise.
8. The Lubavicher rebbe was anav mikol adam and never pushed himself to the forefront. What proof is there of that? I can think of many proofs – some have been mentioned in this thread – that show the opposite. One small indication, not mentioned until now, is that visiting gedolei Yisrael had to come to 770 to visit him, and “suffer” with all types of publicity surrounding their visit. Is there any case where he visited others. In the Torah world when one Rebbe visits another, the latter repays the visit. In Lubavich the visits were only in one direction.
9. His explanation al pi nigleh how a person who is mitzta’er that he CAN fall asleep is pottur from sleeping in the sukkah. It is totally preposterous to claim that this is a valid reason. I might as well say that if I’m mitzta’er that I enjoy eating in the sukkah I am pottur from eating in the sukkah!
10. My proof from the story of the sundial that the memoirs of the Rayatz are fictional and my assumption that the memoirs were never meant to be taken literally. By the way, it is not just the story of the sundial that is unbelievable. There are many others that, while not impossible, are extremely difficult to believe.
I think there are more, but the above is what I can come up with offhand. Please fill in whatever I have missed out.
And for the Lubavichers, how about you address these points directly without obfuscating (why do all these fancy words only come to me in the Coffee Room?)?
I wrote earlier: “I don’t believe there were daf yomi shiurim in any Lubavich shul in Crown Heights before 3 Tammuz.”
While that may indeed be true, I’m not sure about it. What I meant to write was that there were no shiurim BEFORE DAVENING, as Menachem claims there now are.
Avirah, I disagree with you on one thing.
You attempt to prove that the Vilna Gaon was definitely greater than the Baal Hatanya from Litvishe sources. I don’t see anything wrong with Lubavichers believing that the Baal Hatanya, who we all agree was an absolute giant in nigleh and nistar, was greater than the Vilna Gaon.
As an aside, i have heard a number of times that one of the early Belzer Rebbes said that the world thinks that the Vilna Gaon was greater than the Baal Hatanya in nigleh, while the latter was greater than the former in nistar. This is actually a mistake as the reverse is true.
To the group
When I entered this thread Avira and Neville were the leading anti Chabad voices. Frankly, I wasn’t sure where I’d fit in because I recognized that I didn’t have nearly as much factual information, Torah and otherwise, as most of the participants. I decided to join because I felt I could bring two things to the table. First, I’ve learned quite a bit about Chabad from my associations with many of their Rabbis. Second, I sensed that what’s missing is a spirit of camaraderie among the anti Lubavitchers. What was happening was that individual disputes were breaking out over Pshatim in Chazal and this wasn’t touching on the key point, Chabad’s deification of the Rebbe. I was hoping to push the group in that direction but my plan backfired because I “stupidly” mentioned TV which basically turned the whole thread against me. But there emerged a silver lining as Yankel berel not only came to my defense but he became a powerful voice for the side of truth. Moreover, since he established himself it’s now commonplace for the anti Lubavichers to back each other up, something I was hoping for from the beginning. Menachem will likely keep trying to fight off the onslaught, but even he will eventually realize in the near future that his cause is lost. The Rebbe wasn’t the Godol Hador, he wasn’t a Novi and he most certainly wasn’t god. But Menachem can’t accept those facts.
ARSo,
Nothing wrong. Or not so terrible. The Rebbe z”l wanted a zechus for himself. (He knew he was nebach not living over children.) Though I don’t get the zechus of a siyum on a birthday. I guess he wanted some connection to what he thought was a big mifal he originated. He did not know when his yarhtzeit would be. The siyum Ramban each year should have continued to come out on his b’day. However, one ibbur yohr throws it off.
Dear Arso,
Let me clarify what is a kol korei.
When a Rav takes his stationary and pens his thoughts, that is not a kol korei.
Nor when a Beis Din signs their names to their own paper.
Or even when an organization all signs on a proclamation. (It is a real kol korei. But I wasn’t referring to them. They are badly outnumbered by all the junk.
I am talking about a letter written by an unknown hand, signed by a number of rabbonim that aren’t specifically in any one affiliation.
These kol koreis are worthless.
I have seen them being signed by the rabbonim. And have asked many times if the signee agrees with it’s content. I have gotten a wide range of answers.
If the rabbonim really agreed with the message, they would actively push it to some extent. Which happens all the time. So the proclamation itself, is just an empty ritual.
Their words get around just fine without these signed statements.
Dear Menachem,
This is how present day chareidim, talk about at least half of the rabbonim they know. They think that rabbis are selfish, but those driving nice cars and taking luxury vacations are just smart. Worship of success is very high today.
Please do not start anymore posts about what we do. It interrupts us from patting our own backs.
Arso, Menachem, re; gaon and baal hatanya:
I didn’t attempt to prove the gaons status from litvishe sources – there were no chasidishe sources in the gaons early life, because they hadn’t came yet! I’m referring to what the other gedolim said of him before the talmidei habaal shem were known
As for the baal hatanya receiving such a smicha, I don’t doubt it – he was one of the biggest achronim for a reason; everyone agrees to this, and the mishnah berurah cites the shu”a harav quite often for the same reason – he was , even among achronim, huge in ways that make this whole conversation a little bit unnecessary, because we have zero understanding of what these levels are to begin with.
But at the same time, i wouldn’t say that the baal hatanya could be compared with rishonim, while the gaon was indeed placed in such a category by his contemporaries. That doesn’t mean that every gadol from then until now has agreed to this, so it might be true that other gedolim(especially chasidishe ones) may have argued. Some said that the shaagas aryeh was bigger than the gaon in nigleh and that the gaon was bigger in nistar(and the shaagas aryeh did indeed argue with rishonim sometimes); this is something i also have no hasagah in.
So while in general comparing gedolim is a waste of time, i think the Gaon is an exception.
To Menachem Shmei
I forgot that comment so I’ll concede that point to you, but with a clarification. Because some black hatters are dogmatic I chose to leave that world(I used to be in a Rabbi Miller based yeshiva) This said, I am not anti Chareidi. I am only anti Chabad. So don’t try portraying me as an equal opprtunity hater. Next, ARSo compiled a comprehensive list of issues for you to address. A few aren’t so strong but most are solid. I’d like to add the Rebbe abandoning the plain Pshat in Chelek and announcing that Moshiach will redeem every Jew. And the Rebbe announcing that Gehinnom no longer exists because there’s no such thing as a Jew who sins. Finally you talked your way out of the who’s greater Gra or Baal Hatanya. To your credit you did that well. Here’s the problem it’s almost mathematically impossible that every Godol hador for 250 years can come from one group. The Gaon said that the simple abswer is the truth. The sime answer is that the Rebbe Mr. Anivus looked into his crystal ball and decided w/o any basis to declare the Nesiei Chabad the unquestioned rulers of Judaism. The oy problem is no real Jews are buying any of that nonsense.Also, the term “tanna upalig” is used in the gemara for rav and othet 1st Generation amoraim (though almost always rav) that he can argue with tannaim because he was a tanna himself, but he eas also an amorah who other amoraim argued with, so even in the gemaras expression, he was a half tanna, half amora.
What this means for the baal hatanya is that he is fit to argue on previous generations, perhaps he can argue with the Gaon! But that doesn’t make him an actual tanna; gedolim are sometimes called tannaim as a praise(actually , i saw a letter from someone calling the Gaon ‘hatanna ha’eloki’ in the same vein)but not literally. By the gaon, they said that his neshoma literally belonged to tekufas harishonim
@qwerty
you’r hilariousThe maaseh was, someone asked R’ Chaim Volozhiner if the Gaon was as big as the Rambam. R’ Chaim Volozhiner replied, “ulai keRamban.” The velt was amazed that R’ Chaim Volozhiner was able to differentiate between the Rambam and the Ramban…
When the Poiskim are counting for roiv deiois in a machloikes Roishoinim, they count the Gaon as one of the Roishonim.
I wondered, if the would count the Shaagas Aryeh in that too.My friend, Hagaon R’ Avi Ort shlit”a heard directly from Maran R’ Moishe who said, “ven mir iz gevezzen yung, mir flegt kuken oif der Rebbe Akiva Eiger azoivi mir hoben gekukt oif der Gaon.
Rebbe Akiva Eiger is also considered by many poiskim like the daas of a Roishon.I have never heard on the Gaon the phrase the neshamah of a Roishon, just (and more to his credit,) he reached the level of Roishonim.
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