Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher
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September 2, 2023 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #2222120Menachem ShmeiParticipant
Now- R Menachem Shmei . . should we apply the klal of Shtika KeHoda’a here or not
מוחה מוחה מוחה
P.S. I’m reminded of the famous story of Reb Chaim Brisker (I think). Someone was asking him questions in emuna, and he didn’t respond.
Later, he explained why he remained silent:
פאר א קשיא, קען איך געבן א תירוץ. אבער איך קען ניט געבן א תירוץ פאר א תירוץ…September 2, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2222225qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
It was your idea to have an open exchange with observant Jews. We’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position. Looks like checkmate.
September 2, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2222227AviraDeArahParticipantMenachem, the story was that rav chaim told this to a person who had started sinning and said that he had kashyos. Rav chaim said you can answer a kasha but you can’t answer a terutz.
September 2, 2023 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2222247Menachem ShmeiParticipantAvira,
Thanks for the correction. Would you happen to know where I can find the story written?
September 2, 2023 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #2222256Menachem ShmeiParticipantWe’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position.
Qwerty, you haven’t answered the question that I directed at you SEVEN times.
Shtika Kihoda?
P.S. I asked the question in posts: #2213451 #2216778 #2216863 #2217091 #2218000 #2218095 #2220157
I’ll repeat it again: When Lubavitch said a statement that you understood as AZ at first glance, you immediately attacked Lubavitch, and it didn’t enter your mind that there can be a deeper meaning.
However, you do not attack the Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Zohar, or Yerushalmi – all of whom said similar statements which can also sound like AZ at first glance to an ignorant person.Or, I can ask the question as I wrote it in a different post:
What if I were to say:
“Hashem took the four letters of His holy name (הוי’) and garbed them in a hat and kapoto, and this is the Rebbe…”
Or: “Who is the face of י-ה-ו-ה? The Rebbe.”
Or: “When the posuk says that Hashem is in His holy chamber, this refers to the Rebbe when he’s in shul”
Or: “How can the Rebbe heal people if he is mortal and only G-d can give life? Since a tzaddik is one with G-d, he has the power of infinity since his life is Hashem’s essence, therefore he can give life to a sick person.”Would you also call this AZ even though these are just paraphrased from the aforementioned gedolim?
And if not, why not?September 2, 2023 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #2222262yankel berelParticipant@ Menachem
Now- R Menachem Shmei . . should we apply the klal of Shtika KeHoda’a here or not
—–
מוחה מוחה מוחהP.S. I’m reminded of the famous story of Reb Chaim Brisker (I think). Someone was asking him questions in emuna, and he didn’t respond.
Later, he explained why he remained silent:
פאר א קשיא, קען איך געבן א תירוץ. אבער איך קען ניט געבן א תירוץ פאר א תירוץ…
=======================================================
Why did R Chaim call it a ‘teiruts’ ?
Because those ‘arguments’ were only a fig leaf for the guy’s previous decision to discard yahadut to satisfy his base desires . He needed justification , so he found some ‘kushiyot’ which served excellently as ‘teirutsim’ to absolve him from guilt feelings over his attachment to his yetser hara.
.
Please , in a moment of honesty – is that the case here ? The doubts about habad are A RESULT of discarding yahadut ?
.
We need honesty ….September 3, 2023 12:11 am at 12:11 am #2222269AviraDeArahParticipantMenachem, i think it’s mentioned in the multi volume biography of the brisker rov, but I’m not certain – it’s part of the “torah she baal peh” of the yeshivos; I’ve heard the story countless times since i was a teenager.
September 3, 2023 12:13 am at 12:13 am #2222267yankel berelParticipant@ menachem
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qwerty to menachem
We’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position.
———-
menachem to qwertyQwerty, you haven’t answered the question that I directed at you SEVEN times.
========================
yankel to menachem1] You also did not answer any [of the many] questions raised by me ……
2] If the only answer is
moche , moche , moche
and nothing substantial ….. that is also shtikah …….September 3, 2023 6:51 am at 6:51 am #2222277qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
It took me a while to respond but I had to go back to find the last question I asked you which you never answered. The question was as follows, “In the letter you posted, the Rebbe seemed to be saying that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of just Chabad. So how do you explain why most if not all Lubavichers say that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of all Jews?” That’s not tbe only question you refused to answer. If you want to see the others look for my checlmates. As for your question that you asked me seven times, I told you after the first time that I have no intention of studying sources that imply or state that a human being is god. The origimal Christiana supported their heresy with verses, you do the same by misapplying Chazal. Checkmate.September 3, 2023 6:56 am at 6:56 am #2222286yankel berelParticipantDear Yankel,
@ mesorah
Mesorah to yankel
I really don’t know much of these statements. They weren’t intended for me and I never met someone who uses these types of proclamations as a reason for what they think or do. If they thought that way, they will use it as ‘proof’ and if they don’t, they dismiss it. These public directives are barely educational and even less reliable.My position is that there is nothing wrong with Chabad Hashkafah. It is on par with every other group. I have written this over a dozen times. I don’t know why their media is indicative of how they think in their heads. You have to meet real people to see what their actual belief is.
————
Mesorah seems likehe is again doing what he does best …. Beating around the bush and sidestepping .
.
He “doesn’t know much about these statements .”
That was referring to Statements by ALL habad rabbanim and their chozer and first rate habad mashpi’im .
He was referring to habad’s official position, trumpeted ALL AROUND THE WORLD .
Accepted by ALL habad hasidim at the time .
He is referring to something ALL religious Jews at the time knew as unassailable fact.
But Nomesorah doesn’t know much about it …
He doesn’t know ? …. Or maybe he does not WANT TO KNOW … ?
.
“Those statements were not intended for him … ”
No ? Statements by the Chief Chozer of his rebbi , SUPPORTED BY his rebbi , supported by all habad rabbanim ‘were not intended’ for him …. Ridiculous seems an understatement …..
.
“He never met someone who uses these types of proclamations as a reason for what they think or do”
It was WELL KNOWN EVERYWHERE that this was THE habad position .Espoused by all habadi’s at the time . But Nomesorah never met any habadi who would be influenced by the chozer and ALL habad rabbanim and mashpi’im ….. . Who does he think he is kidding ?
.
He opines further – “those public directives are barely educational and even less reliable ”
According to Nomesorah – the Chozer plus ALL habad rabbanim and mashpi’im’s public directives are barely educational and even less reliable ………
Has he taken leave of his senses ? …. Or maybe he thinks we have ….
.
Bottom line . Am not sure whose silence is more deafening here ? Menachems , retreating into his bunker [quoting qwerty] , or nomesorah’s by showing the best rebuttals he can muster .
The silence , across the board, is deafening .
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Seems there is no other option than the final usage of ‘Shtika Ke …. ‘September 3, 2023 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2222332Menachem ShmeiParticipantPlease , in a moment of honesty – is that the case here ? The doubts about habad are A RESULT of discarding yahadut ?
No, it is not. You misunderstood me.
September 3, 2023 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #2222333Menachem ShmeiParticipantthe last question I asked you which you never answered… That’s not tbe only question you refused to answer.
Well, I wasn’t the one who brought in the idea of shtika k’hodaa. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to ignore attacks from anonymous people on a forum, and this is no way insinuates that you agree with them. I think this is obvious to anyone who doesn’t see this as a game of chess.
When I questioned your “shtika k’hodaa” about the 7-times-question, it was only l’shitaschah that shtika k’hodaa is actually a thing here.
The origimal Christiana supported their heresy with verses, you do the same by misapplying Chazal
Maybe you’re the one misinterpreting the Rebbe?
And if you say that you’re just taking what he said at face value, why don’t you also take all the tzaddikim I mentioned at face value?
In the letter you posted, the Rebbe seemed to be saying that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of just Chabad. So how do you explain why most if not all Lubavichers say that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of all Jews?
Because there is more than one letter from the Rebbe printed (currently, they printed most letters up to the mid 1970s, and they number over 13,000), and hundreds of volumes of his talks.
This letter is making a specific point which is why the Rebbe calls them nesiei chabad (he’s clarifying whom he’s talking about).
Anyone who reads a little more than one letter will tell you that the Rebbe definitely considered his father-in-law (Rebbe Rayatz) and his father (Rebbe Rashab) etc. to be the nossi of the entire klal Yisroel.
If you need sources I can give.
P.S. It is quite exhausting and tedious to prepare answers for every question and misunderstanding that you happen to have. This in no way implies any admission of guilt.
September 3, 2023 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #2222350n0mesorahParticipant“2] If the only answer is
moche , moche , moche
and nothing substantial ….. that is also shtikah …….”In Choshen Mishpat, this is absolutely false.
I don’t know if this rule applies at all in Torah Debates. Maybe I just can’t figure out what you want. Maybe we have different interests in this discussion. You can have yours, I’ll keep mine, and they will keep theirs. There is no contradiction if we all have different opinions.
September 3, 2023 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #2222351n0mesorahParticipantDear Qwerty,
I thought the OP was about is this a constant topic by non Chabad frum Jews.
And the answer is ‘no’.
We don’t really talk about our own Emunah. Only Chabad’s belief’s matter to us. Because we feel guilty that they are able to constantly talk about Hashem.
September 3, 2023 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #2222365qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
If you think we misunderstood you explain yourself.
September 3, 2023 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #2222400qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
In your longwinded diatribe you actually answered my question by stating that the Rebbe co sidered the Rayyatz Nasi Hador and by extension every Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of Klal Yisroel. Fine. So npw we have established our differences. You believe what ypur Rebbe said while normative Judsism rejects ot out of hand. Just as I didn’t try to convince anyone to watch TV i won’t try to convince you that your Rebbe was wrong. This said I won’t consider anything said by a person who called himself god. Btw why didn’t you answery question tne first time I asked it? I don’t bite.
September 3, 2023 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #2222414n0mesorahParticipantDear Yankel,
I don ‘t care for any official statements from any group. Kol korei culture is meaningless to me.
I am not Chabad at all. I don’t shun them either. There is a lot of great kosher fun to be had. Like, spending a day with an bunch of frum bochurim who know how to learn and actually learn. Or an all night bull session about deep concepts without canceling each other. Sorry that you are missing out.
September 3, 2023 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #2222445Menachem ShmeiParticipantQwerty,
If you think we misunderstood you explain yourself.
I told yankel berel that he misunderstood me. Why do you write “we”? I wasn’t talking about you!
Oh, I forgot. You’re on his chess team.
I won’t consider anything said by a person who called himself god
According to your definition of calling oneself G-d, why do you “consider anything” that was said by the Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Zohar, or Yerushalmi – all of whom said the same idea as the Rebbe?
Btw why didn’t you answery question tne first time I asked it?
I answered this in the postscript of my previous post.
September 3, 2023 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #2222440SomedayParticipant@moshekapoyer 1st post above,
Over stated, but 👍September 3, 2023 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2222482qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
“Oh. I forgot you’re on his chess team.” You’re absolutely right
We’re on the same team and we’re ansolutely devoted to our coach, the Ribono Shel Olam Creator and Maintainer of the Universe and everything contained within it.” And the team includes Avirah and ARSo even if we’ve had some contentious moments. We are united to fight this travesty called Chabad. And we will win.September 3, 2023 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2222485JudeParticipantThe Lubavitcher Rebbe was unique in that many of his followers were praying to him, and he knew that. That is idolatry.
September 3, 2023 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2222486n0mesorahParticipantThis has to be the most childish Chabad thread yet!
Might as well add to it…
יִ֥תְיַצְּב֨וּ מַלְכֵי־אֶ֗רֶץ וְרוֹזְנִ֥ים נֽוֹסְדוּ־יָ֑חַד עַל־יְ֝הֹוָ֗ה וְעַל־מְשִׁיחֽוֹ׃
September 3, 2023 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #2222500qwerty613ParticipantTo n0mesorah
Why don’t you start your own thread? But don’t tell anyone about it. Thdn you can argue with yourself, the only person in this world you respect.
September 3, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2222522yankel berelParticipant@menachem
I don’t know if this rule applies at all in Torah Debates. Maybe I just can’t figure out what you want. Maybe we have different interests in this discussion.
—–
It does apply in torah debates . If there is a Taana , heard and still unanswered .Why is there no answer given ? Probably because THERE IS NO ANSWER available …
.
Cant figure out what I want …… Sounds a bit like a lame excuse , or not ? Other option – THERE IS NO ANSWER available …
.
Different interests – Yes, Yours is To missionize for habad , at all costs .
Mine is to hash it out . Are there explanations for habad theologies’ acrobatics or not ?September 3, 2023 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #2222523yankel berelParticipant@ nomesorah
I don ‘t care for any official statements from any group. Kol korei culture is meaningless to me.I am not Chabad at all. I don’t shun them either. There is a lot of great kosher fun to be had. Like, spending a day with an bunch of frum bochurim who know how to learn and actually learn. Or an all night bull session about deep concepts without canceling each other. Sorry that you are missing out.
—————–
1] Am not habad either .
However Don’t shun them either.
Criticism of modern habad theology is not necessarily a reason to shun them .
2] Ignoring kol korei culture – is tantamount to ignoring reality .
Not recognizing that what I wrote was AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF UNIVERSAL HABAD BELIEFS pre 1996 , is a prime example of IGNORING REALITY , which you either do willfully , which is disingenuous .
Or not willfully , in which case any further comment is totally superfluous [to put it mildly]
3] Judging from your comments ,you seem to have a vested interest in sidestepping and thereby defending the indefensible.September 3, 2023 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #2222524yankel berelParticipant@ nomesorah
This has to be the most childish Chabad thread yet!Might as well add to it…
יִ֥תְיַצְּב֨וּ מַלְכֵי־אֶ֗רֶץ וְרוֹזְנִ֥ים נֽוֹסְדוּ־יָ֑חַד עַל־יְ֝הֹוָ֗ה וְעַל־מְשִׁיחֽוֹ
——————-
Nomesorah uses the word ‘meshicho’ .
And still claims he is ‘not habad’ .
Go figure ….September 3, 2023 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #2222525yankel berelParticipant@menachem
RECAP OF THE CONVERSATION
Now- R Menachem Shmei . . should we apply the klal of Shtika KeHoda’a here or not
—–
מוחה מוחה מוחהP.S. I’m reminded of the famous story of Reb Chaim Brisker (I think). Someone was asking him questions in emuna, and he didn’t respond.
Later, he explained why he remained silent:
פאר א קשיא, קען איך געבן א תירוץ. אבער איך קען ניט געבן א תירוץ פאר א תירוץ…
=======================================================
Why did R Chaim call it a ‘teiruts’ ?
Because those ‘arguments’ were only a fig leaf for the guy’s previous decision to discard yahadut to satisfy his base desires . He needed justification , so he found some ‘kushiyot’ which served excellently as ‘teirutsim’ to absolve him from guilt feelings over his attachment to his yetser hara.
Please , in a moment of honesty – is that the case here ? The doubts about habad are A RESULT of discarding yahadut ?
—
No, it is not. You misunderstood me.
================================
So , Menachem , what was your real intention ?September 3, 2023 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #2222526yankel berelParticipant@ qwerty
I am honored that you consider me ‘on your team’ .
However , may I suggest a small correction, if I may .
We are not fighting the travesty called habad .
We are fighting the travesty of THE THEOLOGY of ‘modern habad’ .
We have to pinpoint accurately.September 3, 2023 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2222552qwerty613ParticipantTo yankel berel
I accept your critique. I obviously agree with you because I have many wonderful assciations in Chabad. Many years ago before I became fully frum I went to a singles Shabbaton. The Rabbi spoke about the famous Rashi of Libi Amar Li. Something hit me and years later it was aajor turning point iny life. We don’t expect any Lubavicher to see the light immediately, but Rabbi Akiva taught that a drop of water makes an imprezsion on a sto e.
September 3, 2023 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2222563n0mesorahParticipantDear Yankel,
So let’s get to some theology! You are only mentioning propaganda and messaging.
A kol korei does not reflect reality. But if you think they do, maybe that is our disagreement.
You think that putting out a message reflects the reality of the mindset behind it.
I think that the message is a reflection of convenience and diversion.
September 3, 2023 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #2222564n0mesorahParticipantDear Yankel,
Quoting the passuk was a joke. Chill out. This is turning even less productive.
September 3, 2023 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #2222566n0mesorahParticipantDear Qwerty,
You are missing my respect for your opinion. I am allowing you to explain or not as you will. My having a different take doesn’t, diminish your views in the least.
I am confused why you post that you won’t debate a certain viewpoint but keep posting against anyone that doesn’t have your point of view on that very same point.
It seems like a contradiction of values to me.
September 4, 2023 2:06 am at 2:06 am #2222578Menachem ShmeiParticipantPlease , in a moment of honesty – is that the case here ? The doubts about habad are A RESULT of discarding yahadut ?
—
No, it is not. You misunderstood me.
================================
So , Menachem , what was your real intention ?I think my intention was fairly obvious, and you’re trying to twist deeper meanings into my words.
If anyone besides for you and qwerty think that by quoting Reb Chayim I meant that doubts about Chabad are a result of discarding yahadus – then I will gladly explain them my true intention.
Otherwise, I’m just wasting my breath.
September 4, 2023 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2222579yankel berelParticipant@ nomesorah
…….A kol korei does not reflect reality….
——-
So, according to you the reality was not that the habad hasidim considered their rebbi to be the messiah and therefore could not die before accomplishing his mission ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
So according to you , a kol korei and articles by the leading rabbanim and mashpi’im of habad do not reflect and shape opinion within habad hasidim ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
So according to you a kol korei and articles by the leading rabbanim and mashpi’im of habad do not reflect the wishes of their leader ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
Honesty , my dear nomesorah , honesty . A rare commodity ….
.September 4, 2023 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2222580yankel berelParticipant@nomesorah
….let’s get to some theology …..
—————
Habad ‘s points , discussed in all my posts ,were theology . Not me ,
It was their rabbanim and their chozer and their rebbi who were talking theology . Not me .
Their rebbi is the one who said that Nevua came back to the Jews . Thats Theology .
Its Their chozer and their rabbanim who said that Nevua letov CANNOT come back rekam . And that the fact that their rebbi is the messiah is a nevua letov . So he cannot die in a physical sense.
They made a theology out of it . Not me .
[Or maybe you are insinuating they were using theology for ‘propaganda and messaging’ purposes ????]
I am merely following in their footsteps .
.
Dear Nomesorah
Its time to be mekayem ‘Leolam Yehei Adam … Modeh al haEmet , VeDover Emet BiLevavo ….’
.September 4, 2023 2:08 am at 2:08 am #2222581yankel berelParticipant@menachem
Qwerty,If you think we misunderstood you explain yourself.
I told yankel berel that he misunderstood me. Why do you write “we”? I wasn’t talking about you!
Oh, I forgot. You’re on his chess team.
————-
Hello — Menachem . still waiting for an explanation
YankelSeptember 4, 2023 2:16 am at 2:16 am #2222588LostsparkParticipant@Menachem Shmei,
I’m really enjoying watching QWERTY repeatedly ignore your question he can’t apparently answer, only to go around patting himself on the back for being absolutely correct.
Let’s see if he answers it now.
September 4, 2023 8:06 am at 8:06 am #2222608yankel berelParticipant@menachem
you misunderstood me .
my question is very simple . R Chaims obvious intention was that it impossible to argue back on something which serves as A COVER foe something deeper [in his case discarding of yahadut] . You brought RC as rationale why you are not answering .
My question is , and was
– WHAT IN YOUR OPINION IS COVERING OUR QUESTIONS , thereby absolving you from answering ?
Are we going to get an answer on this one , [or does RC apply to this question too] ?September 4, 2023 8:08 am at 8:08 am #2222612ARSoParticipantMenachem: “Otherwise, I’m just wasting my breath.”
You won’t be wasing your breath if you explain how the story of R Chaim Brisker is relevant to those who have kashas on Lubavich.
And while I have your attention, I want to point out something that I don’t think has been mentioned – at least, I haven’t mentioned it and I don’t recall others mentioning it.
Were Lubavich to have these weird and possibly heretical views, but they kept them to themselves, I, and I assume others, would not be so vehement in attacking them. Take Satmar, for example. I totally disagree with their views on the State of israel, but I can handle them because they don’t usually try to force their views on me.
Lubavich, on the other hand, have an agenda, and that is that the entire world has to recognize that the late rebbe is the Nassi Hador and that therefore everyone has to do what he says. Learning nigleh on Shabbos or before davening is wrong. Eating gebrokts is wrong. Even putting on tefillin differently is wrong. And don’t tell me that’s not true because decades of experience – it sounds like from even before you were born – have shown me that it is true.
I’ll give you one example. My sister-in-law was in Meron this last Shabbos and on Friday she overheard a Lubavicher woman asking a Sefardi women if her daughter lights Shabbos candles. The latter said that her daughter does.
“With a beracha?”
“No. Without.”
“Well she should make a beracha.”
“But our minhag is not to.”
“The Lubavicher rebbe said girls should. Do you think he doesn’t know what he’s talking about?!”It’s this typical type of behaviour that really gets on people’s nerves, and that’s why we are so often on the attack. That, and the posters/pictures/stickers of Melech Hamashiach put all over the place, even on private property.
If you would “leave us alone” we wouldn’t go on the attack nearly as much. Of course, your answer will likely be that your rebbe wanted you to convince everyone that he is a Navi/Nassi/Mashiach, so that’s what you have to do. And that just compounds the problem.
And just to make things clear. The above is NOT my major complaint with Lubavich. It’s just the reason that I find it difficult to remain silent.
September 4, 2023 8:08 am at 8:08 am #2222613qwerty613ParticipantTo lostspark
What is Menachem’s qurstion thst you clsim I haven’t answered? Repeat it for me and I’ll answer you.
September 4, 2023 8:10 am at 8:10 am #2222620ARSoParticipantI decided that I just had to check out those quotes from seforim that Menachem keeps referring to, and I discovered two very important differences between what those seforim say and what the Lubavicher rebbe said.
1. Nowhere in those quotes does it say that one may daven to a tzaddik, and the Lubavicher rebbe clearly said that you can daven to an atzmus melubash baguf. If I remember correctly, that was the point of his explanation.
2. All the quotes Menachem brought refer to other tzaddikim, not the people who made them. The Lubaavicher rebbe was – all the chassidim agree – referring to himself!
September 4, 2023 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2222659qwerty613ParticipantTo the group
I’d like to return to the subject of the Rebbe’s Nevuah of our redemption. First, can someone clarify when he said it? Second Rabbi Butman constantly reminds us that ours is the last genwration of Golus and the first generation of Geulah. As I understand it a generation lasts 20 years. Clearly that time frame has passed. When do Lubavichers finally accept that the Rebbe’s announcement was a prediction which hasn’t come true?September 4, 2023 9:45 am at 9:45 am #2222670n0mesorahParticipantDear Arso,
There is no contradiction in 1. It has been beaten to death on this site for years.
The other point you have been harping on for weeks. I responded to that.
But let’s make this more interesting (At least for me.) Let’s assume you are correct on both points. So what? Chabad has some unique views. Every group does. Otherwise they wouldn’t be their own group.
September 4, 2023 9:48 am at 9:48 am #2222677n0mesorahParticipantDear Arso,
The agenda thing is in the eyes of the inquisitive. Many Modern Orthodox Jews have the same complaint about Lakewood. Chabad is genuine about this. Those that are learned know that there other ways outside Chabad.
I have come to terms with many fervent but thinking young Lubavitchers. If somebody can’t explain why he is not Chabad to them, it means he doesn’t know his own views well enough. That is not a complaint on Chabad. And it is the opposite of an agenda.
September 4, 2023 10:05 am at 10:05 am #2222680n0mesorahParticipantDear Yankel,
I maintain that Nevuah never completely disappeared. And I did not know The Rebbe’s statement before this thread.
Chabad didn’t invent Jewish Theology. I can’t pinpoint what you are discussing. But one thing I know. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Ikkarei Emunah. I would have that discussion (God and Mods willing.) if it ever comes back.
September 4, 2023 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2222687n0mesorahParticipantDear Yankel,
All this Chabad Media is not theology. It is trying to relate esoteric concepts to a reality that is not here, but using the current possibilities of meta reality as a bridge.
As a student I have no need for it. Most of Chabad doesn’t either.
I don’t know what group you are in. But tell me, is the kol korei educational there? Or is there a bunch of between the lines or backroom trade offs?
I don’t know why you doubled down on Chabad Media, when I posted that I don’t know them and don’t care for them.
September 4, 2023 10:23 am at 10:23 am #2222683Menachem ShmeiParticipantYou won’t be wasing your breath if you explain how the story of R Chaim Brisker is relevant to those who have kashas on Lubavich.
I didn’t say it about “those who have kashas on Lubavich”. I said it to explain my occasional silence on this thread (to answer the childish claim of “shtika k’hodaa (no, I don’t ch”v mean that the klal is childish. I mean that it’s childish to apply it to this context)).
My point is very simple: Over the 26 pages of this thread, it is quite obvious that (some of) the opponents to Lubavitch on this thread (especially yankel and qwerty) are staunchly opposed to Lubavitch, and will attack (almost) any argument that I make.
Honestly, the same is the other way around: I am staunchly Lubavitch, and I’ll probably disagree with (almost) any attack against Lubavitch made here on the thread.This is the reason why this thread (and many other similar threads) are just going in circles with endless arguments and questions. Questions that are really meant as תירוצים for explaining the “problems with Lubavitch” or the “maalos of Lubavitch” (from each side respectively).
Therefore, when I’m being pummeled by dozens of questions on many different ideas, and I know that most of what I say won’t actually change the minds that are already set – I’m not really interested in working on answering every single question.
To say that this implies some sort of admission of guilt is ridiculous.
That’s why I mentioned the Reb Chaim story in connection to my “מוחה מוחה מוחה” in response to yankel’s claim of shtika k’hodaa.
Let me know if you need more clarification.
P.S. Regarding your later point:
I agree that Lubavitchers have an agenda. They feel that their derech will immensely improve the avodas Hashem of all Yidden, which is why they feel the need to spread it to anyone they come in contact with (however, I disagree with many of your examples).
Yidden who indeed recognize great qualities in the Lubavitch derech appreciate this VERY much (there are MANY such people – I’m referring to frum Yidden. Non-frum are a different story altogether).
Yidden who are more wary of the Lubavitch derech are (understandably) quite distressed by this (and it “really gets on their nerves”).September 4, 2023 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2222702n0mesorahParticipantDear Yankel,
To answer your there questions.
Mostly no. (Some even more extreme. Many undecided. Different ones rejected the idea.) The reality of what Chabad thought about The Rebbe’s mission before the stroke was varied. [My understanding. Based on others. I wasn’t alive then.] It always was varied how to deal with practical messianism in Lubavitch. There is a underhanded attempt to unify Chabad thought to more specific points, but it is futile. You can convince any other group to accept something unanimously. Chabad has too many independent types.
No or almost none. People have their opinions before they read this stuff. And they take it in according to their prior views.
No way! No kol korei ever accurately conveyed the wishes of the leader.
September 4, 2023 10:50 am at 10:50 am #22227125783Participant@qwerty the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that his father in law was a נביא because he predicted the future many times and then he said that the נבואה continues to the next generation thruw ״תלמידיו וכו״of his father in law and that his father in law attested that ״תלמידיו וכו״ is a נביא which means that you don’t have to test him and ask for signs and than he said that the main נבואה of this generation is that moshiach is coming ״בקרוב ממש״ and ״לאלתר״ which means very soon and then he said that it’s a מצוה to poblicize to everyone both yidden and גויים that “there is a person in our generation who is שלא בערך greater the rest of the generation who is a נביא and gives directions for every detail in a person’s life and everyone has to listen to everything he says because it’s not a advice but a comand and a נבואה and it’s especially important to spread the main נבואה that the גאולה is coming ״בקרוב ממש sounds a bit crazy but that’s what he said word for word.the source is the sicha of פרשת שופטים תשנ״א
September 4, 2023 10:58 am at 10:58 am #2222717Menachem ShmeiParticipantI decided that I just had to check out those quotes from seforim that Menachem keeps referring to
Thank you for actually checking this up (unlike others who were too intimidated)!
1. “the Lubavicher rebbe clearly said that you can daven to an atzmus melubash baguf”
Many people might misunderstand what you’re saying to mean that this is referring to davening shmone esrei or something. This is obviously not the case. I never heard of this concept of “davening to the Rebbe” from any Lubavitcher. I only hear it from misnagdim (i.e. those who are opposed to Lubavitch).
What the Rebbe is explaining is the common practice of asking a Rebbe for brochos. In the Rebbe’s words: וואס איז שייך בכלל בעטן ביי א רבי’ן, עס איז דאך אן ענין פון א ממוצע – “how is one allowed to request [בקשות] from a Rebbe? This [seems to be] the problem of an intermediary!”
The Rebbe goes on to bring the famous distinction brought in chassidus between two types of intermediaries: ממוצע המפסיק (which has the issue of AZ) and ממוצע המחבר (which applies to a tzaddik – this is how chassidus explains Moshe saying אנכי עומד בין ה’ וביניכם, and ונתתי עשב, etc.).
2. Nowhere in those quotes does it say that one may daven to a tzaddik
[The quote from Noam Elimelech brings out a very similar point to what the Rebbe is trying to say: Since a tzaddik is one with Hashem, he has the koach to draw down healing to a sick person.
But this is beside the point.]My point wasn’t to explain or prove what the Rebbe said (and neither have I done so above), since, as I’ve pointed out many times, this is a complex topic that has been debated many times here in the CR, and I’m not delusional enough to think that with one post I can explain the whole concept. This is why I sent a reference to a shiur of Rabbi YY. There is also a 175 page sefer from Rav Pewsner “Al Hatzaddikim” (on Otzar Hachochma) that explains this sicha, with many souces from all over chazal rishonim and achronim.
This was my point with bringing those quotes:
Some people here went into a shock when they heard the excerpted line from the sicha, and decided that there is no need to research the subject before attacking Lubavitch, since the words “עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף” is “so obviously” AZ (ch”v).
My point was that there are many similar statements that can also be “shocking” at face value. Just as one wouldn’t discard (ch”v) a Noam Elimelech after seeing one strange-looking line (as you proved to us by trying to interpret why it’s not an issue), neither should one do this with Lubavitch.
Obviously, we don’t decide which parts of Torah are true or “false” from first-glance one-line clickbait lines that are thrown at us.This was and remains my point.
3. The Lubaavicher rebbe was – all the chassidim agree – referring to himself!
This is also a complete misunderstanding of what chassidim mean. Of course, the Rebbe wasn’t talking about himself. The entire discussion over there is about going to the kever of the Rebbe Rayatz, and if people should still ask brochos from a tzaddik after he passed away. The Rebbe was alive then, so it obviously wasn’t about him.
Even more so, the sicha was said at a time (5710) when the Rebbe was still adamantly opposed to chassidim even considering him “Rebbe,” not even allowing them to refer to him with the title Admur.Why, then, do chassidim say that the Rebbe was “referring to himself”?
Think about it like this: After Reb Elimelech said that a tzaddik has the power to heal since he is one with Hashem, I’m sure that his talmidim said: “Wow! Reb Elimelech is one with Hashem, and he has the power to heal! He said this about tzaddikim, and this surely applies to him!”
This is exactly the idea. The Rebbe said this idea about the Rebbe Rayatz, that he can give brochos after his passing, and he is one with Hashem, etc.
Chassidim, who consider the “Ramash” as their Rebbe, say: “Wow, this surely applies to OUR Rebbe as well! He is one with Hashem, and can give brochos!” etc.Anyone who actually reads anything from the Rebbe knows that this whole claim of the Rebbe “praising himself” is completely baseless, and completely foreign to the Rebbe’s style.
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