Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

To Menachem Shmei

It was your idea to have an open exchange with observant Jews. We’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position. Looks like checkmate.

@ Menachem
Now- R Menachem Shmei . . should we apply the klal of Shtika KeHoda’a here or not
—–
מוחה מוחה מוחה

P.S. I’m reminded of the famous story of Reb Chaim Brisker (I think). Someone was asking him questions in emuna, and he didn’t respond.
Later, he explained why he remained silent:
פאר א קשיא, קען איך געבן א תירוץ. אבער איך קען ניט געבן א תירוץ פאר א תירוץ…
=======================================================
Why did R Chaim call it a ‘teiruts’ ?
Because those ‘arguments’ were only a fig leaf for the guy’s previous decision to discard yahadut to satisfy his base desires . He needed justification , so he found some ‘kushiyot’ which served excellently as ‘teirutsim’ to absolve him from guilt feelings over his attachment to his yetser hara.
.
Please , in a moment of honesty – is that the case here ? The doubts about habad are A RESULT of discarding yahadut ?
.
We need honesty ….

@ menachem
————————–
qwerty to menachem
We’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position.
———-
menachem to qwerty

Qwerty, you haven’t answered the question that I directed at you SEVEN times.
========================
yankel to menachem

1] You also did not answer any [of the many] questions raised by me ……

2] If the only answer is
moche , moche , moche
and nothing substantial ….. that is also shtikah …….

Dear Yankel,

@ mesorah
Mesorah to yankel
I really don’t know much of these statements. They weren’t intended for me and I never met someone who uses these types of proclamations as a reason for what they think or do. If they thought that way, they will use it as ‘proof’ and if they don’t, they dismiss it. These public directives are barely educational and even less reliable.

My position is that there is nothing wrong with Chabad Hashkafah. It is on par with every other group. I have written this over a dozen times. I don’t know why their media is indicative of how they think in their heads. You have to meet real people to see what their actual belief is.
————
Mesorah seems likehe is again doing what he does best …. Beating around the bush and sidestepping .
.
He “doesn’t know much about these statements .”
That was referring to Statements by ALL habad rabbanim and their chozer and first rate habad mashpi’im .
He was referring to habad’s official position, trumpeted ALL AROUND THE WORLD .
Accepted by ALL habad hasidim at the time .
He is referring to something ALL religious Jews at the time knew as unassailable fact.
But Nomesorah doesn’t know much about it …
He doesn’t know ? …. Or maybe he does not WANT TO KNOW … ?
.
“Those statements were not intended for him … ”
No ? Statements by the Chief Chozer of his rebbi , SUPPORTED BY his rebbi , supported by all habad rabbanim ‘were not intended’ for him …. Ridiculous seems an understatement …..
.
“He never met someone who uses these types of proclamations as a reason for what they think or do”
It was WELL KNOWN EVERYWHERE that this was THE habad position .Espoused by all habadi’s at the time . But Nomesorah never met any habadi who would be influenced by the chozer and ALL habad rabbanim and mashpi’im ….. . Who does he think he is kidding ?
.
He opines further – “those public directives are barely educational and even less reliable ”
According to Nomesorah – the Chozer plus ALL habad rabbanim and mashpi’im’s public directives are barely educational and even less reliable ………
Has he taken leave of his senses ? …. Or maybe he thinks we have ….
.
Bottom line . Am not sure whose silence is more deafening here ? Menachems , retreating into his bunker [quoting qwerty] , or nomesorah’s by showing the best rebuttals he can muster .
The silence , across the board, is deafening .
.
Seems there is no other option than the final usage of ‘Shtika Ke …. ‘

Dear Qwerty,

I thought the OP was about is this a constant topic by non Chabad frum Jews.

And the answer is ‘no’.

We don’t really talk about our own Emunah. Only Chabad’s belief’s matter to us. Because we feel guilty that they are able to constantly talk about Hashem.

To Menachem Shmei

In your longwinded diatribe you actually answered my question by stating that the Rebbe co sidered the Rayyatz Nasi Hador and by extension every Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of Klal Yisroel. Fine. So npw we have established our differences. You believe what ypur Rebbe said while normative Judsism rejects ot out of hand. Just as I didn’t try to convince anyone to watch TV i won’t try to convince you that your Rebbe was wrong. This said I won’t consider anything said by a person who called himself god. Btw why didn’t you answery question tne first time I asked it? I don’t bite.

To Menachem Shmei

“Oh. I forgot you’re on his chess team.” You’re absolutely right
We’re on the same team and we’re ansolutely devoted to our coach, the Ribono Shel Olam Creator and Maintainer of the Universe and everything contained within it.” And the team includes Avirah and ARSo even if we’ve had some contentious moments. We are united to fight this travesty called Chabad. And we will win.

This has to be the most childish Chabad thread yet!

Might as well add to it…

יִ֥תְיַצְּב֨וּ מַלְכֵי־אֶ֗רֶץ וְרוֹזְנִ֥ים נֽוֹסְדוּ־יָ֑חַד עַל־יְ֝הֹוָ֗ה וְעַל־מְשִׁיחֽוֹ׃

@menachem
I don’t know if this rule applies at all in Torah Debates. Maybe I just can’t figure out what you want. Maybe we have different interests in this discussion.
—–
It does apply in torah debates . If there is a Taana , heard and still unanswered .Why is there no answer given ? Probably because THERE IS NO ANSWER available …
.
Cant figure out what I want …… Sounds a bit like a lame excuse , or not ? Other option – THERE IS NO ANSWER available …
.
Different interests – Yes, Yours is To missionize for habad , at all costs .
Mine is to hash it out . Are there explanations for habad theologies’ acrobatics or not ?

@ nomesorah
This has to be the most childish Chabad thread yet!

Might as well add to it…

יִ֥תְיַצְּב֨וּ מַלְכֵי־אֶ֗רֶץ וְרוֹזְנִ֥ים נֽוֹסְדוּ־יָ֑חַד עַל־יְ֝הֹוָ֗ה וְעַל־מְשִׁיחֽוֹ
——————-
Nomesorah uses the word ‘meshicho’ .
And still claims he is ‘not habad’ .
Go figure ….

@ qwerty
I am honored that you consider me ‘on your team’ .
However , may I suggest a small correction, if I may .
We are not fighting the travesty called habad .
We are fighting the travesty of THE THEOLOGY of ‘modern habad’ .
We have to pinpoint accurately.

Dear Yankel,

So let’s get to some theology! You are only mentioning propaganda and messaging.

A kol korei does not reflect reality. But if you think they do, maybe that is our disagreement.

You think that putting out a message reflects the reality of the mindset behind it.

I think that the message is a reflection of convenience and diversion.

Dear Qwerty,

You are missing my respect for your opinion. I am allowing you to explain or not as you will. My having a different take doesn’t, diminish your views in the least.

I am confused why you post that you won’t debate a certain viewpoint but keep posting against anyone that doesn’t have your point of view on that very same point.

It seems like a contradiction of values to me.

@ nomesorah
…….A kol korei does not reflect reality….
——-
So, according to you the reality was not that the habad hasidim considered their rebbi to be the messiah and therefore could not die before accomplishing his mission ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
So according to you , a kol korei and articles by the leading rabbanim and mashpi’im of habad do not reflect and shape opinion within habad hasidim ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
So according to you a kol korei and articles by the leading rabbanim and mashpi’im of habad do not reflect the wishes of their leader ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
Honesty , my dear nomesorah , honesty . A rare commodity ….
.

@menachem
Qwerty,

If you think we misunderstood you explain yourself.

I told yankel berel that he misunderstood me. Why do you write “we”? I wasn’t talking about you!

Oh, I forgot. You’re on his chess team.
————-
Hello — Menachem . still waiting for an explanation
Yankel

@menachem
you misunderstood me .
my question is very simple . R Chaims obvious intention was that it impossible to argue back on something which serves as A COVER foe something deeper [in his case discarding of yahadut] . You brought RC as rationale why you are not answering .
My question is , and was
– WHAT IN YOUR OPINION IS COVERING OUR QUESTIONS , thereby absolving you from answering ?
Are we going to get an answer on this one , [or does RC apply to this question too] ?

To lostspark

What is Menachem’s qurstion thst you clsim I haven’t answered? Repeat it for me and I’ll answer you.

To the group
I’d like to return to the subject of the Rebbe’s Nevuah of our redemption. First, can someone clarify when he said it? Second Rabbi Butman constantly reminds us that ours is the last genwration of Golus and the first generation of Geulah. As I understand it a generation lasts 20 years. Clearly that time frame has passed. When do Lubavichers finally accept that the Rebbe’s announcement was a prediction which hasn’t come true?

Dear Arso,

The agenda thing is in the eyes of the inquisitive. Many Modern Orthodox Jews have the same complaint about Lakewood. Chabad is genuine about this. Those that are learned know that there other ways outside Chabad.

I have come to terms with many fervent but thinking young Lubavitchers. If somebody can’t explain why he is not Chabad to them, it means he doesn’t know his own views well enough. That is not a complaint on Chabad. And it is the opposite of an agenda.

Dear Yankel,

All this Chabad Media is not theology. It is trying to relate esoteric concepts to a reality that is not here, but using the current possibilities of meta reality as a bridge.

As a student I have no need for it. Most of Chabad doesn’t either.

I don’t know what group you are in. But tell me, is the kol korei educational there? Or is there a bunch of between the lines or backroom trade offs?

I don’t know why you doubled down on Chabad Media, when I posted that I don’t know them and don’t care for them.

Dear Yankel,

To answer your there questions.

Mostly no. (Some even more extreme. Many undecided. Different ones rejected the idea.) The reality of what Chabad thought about The Rebbe’s mission before the stroke was varied. [My understanding. Based on others. I wasn’t alive then.] It always was varied how to deal with practical messianism in Lubavitch. There is a underhanded attempt to unify Chabad thought to more specific points, but it is futile. You can convince any other group to accept something unanimously. Chabad has too many independent types.

No or almost none. People have their opinions before they read this stuff. And they take it in according to their prior views.

No way! No kol korei ever accurately conveyed the wishes of the leader.