Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

Is no Lubavicher going to address the claim of avodah zarah in regards to the Lubavicher rebbe’s picture being placed under the baby at a bris?

It seems to me that this is what the Lubavich contingent in this thread are best at. If they can’t answer by quoting a sicha or the like, they ignore the question altogether.

Arso the bris thing was directed by The Rebbe. And not worth looking up for you (so you can pull out something else) you can yourself I’m interested

the bris thing was directed by The Rebbe. [CS]
——————-
There you are. The personality and picture ‘deification’ WAS directed by their rebbe.
Not by any of the previous rebbes .
Not by any of the other habad dynasties – kapust liadi etc .
Not by the Malachim .
Not by the Rashag , had he not capitulated , and had he continued with his leadership as his mother in law , the rabbanit Shneerson [the wife of the Rayats] wanted him to .
.
All the others did not have any messianic aspirations .
That is the difference .
.
As simple as can be .

To mdd1

I understand how you feel but the moderators want to allow all sides to express their views. The Lubavichers lie to protect their idol tbe Rebbe, nom does so to protect his Getchka which is himself.

To yankel berel

You’re a consistent voice of reason and truth. On a personal note you stood up for me when I was bei g attacked. Hashem should reward you handsomely.

qwerty: “the claim that the Baal Hatanya was a Neshama Chadasha, the first in 2000 years”

I don’t know about the first in 2000 years part, but Lubavichers certainly make the claim that the Baal Hatanya was a neshama chadasha. Of course, they are the only ones who make that claim about him.

To Qwerty.
thanks

Dear Yankel,

“The attitude of habad hasidim toward their rebbe exceeds by far , the attitude of other talmidim towards their rebbe , and even the attitude of other hasidim towards their rebbe.”
——————–
Completely untrue. Maybe you were born yesterday. Maybe you will be born again tomorrow.

That is the proper attitude of a talmid for a rebbe. Everything the rebbe says is unequivocally the Word of the Torah. (A wise student knows not to retain everything as is.) And it is only half of what was Reb Boruch Ber to Reb Chaim. The difference with Chabad is this. You can be in almost any yeshiva or chassidus and not be a talmid of the rebbe. In most places the people in the group that actually follow the leader are a minority. IN Chabad, you have to follow the rebbe. There is no being Chabad, without being a follower of the rebbe.
————————-
Even those hasidim or talmidim [ the ‘minority ‘ in your words ] do NOT regard their rebbe as habad regards their rebbe.
It is qualitatively totally different .
Speak to even the most devoted hasid in other places , and speak to an average habad hasid , you will get different answers .
Thats besides the difference you mentioned about ‘being habad without their rebbe’
.
Why is that ?
.
Isnt it a RESULT OF the habad rebbes pronouncements about what a Rebbe is ?
Isnt it a RESULT OF habads importance of having his pictures everywhere ?
Isnt it A RESULT OF their rebbes instructions to visualise the rebbe whenever something is difficult ?
Isnt it A RESULT OF their rebbes pronouncements regarding his father in law , meant to take effect by his hasidim regarding himself ?
.
You agreed for the need for reality and honesty . Can you be realistic AND honest and still tell me that those details mentioned before are NOT CONNECTED ?
And if not , why not ?
[They say in the name of R Chaim MiBrisk – If you have 3 Kushiyot with an option of 3 Teirutsim or another option with one Teiruts for all the Kushiyot , It is the one Teiruts which is the correct one ….]

Dear Yankel,

That is more like it!

I’ll get to it all be”h. But first…

“My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?”

I call this Chabad polemics. I think that is the root in where we differ.

Dear Arso,

Avodah zara is about worship. A physical action. Something one does to serve a higher power. It does not take place in the mind.

Dear Arso,

וְהָיָה֙ בַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֔וּא שֹׁ֣רֶשׁ יִשַׁ֗י אֲשֶׁ֤ר עֹמֵד֙ לְנֵ֣ס עַמִּ֔ים אֵלָ֖יו גּוֹיִ֣ם יִדְרֹ֑שׁוּ וְהָיְתָ֥ה מְנֻחָת֖וֹ כָּבֽוֹד׃

Yeshaya 11 10

n0m: “Why should we know how to live our life? It’s just do what Hashem wants…. Enter Arizal.. Baal Shem…”

Because without these great Torah leaders and thinkers, together with others who are not affiliated davka with the above paths, e.g. Sfardim and Litvish, we would not be serving hashem properly, and we would be performing mitzvos אנשים מלומדה. Not that we aren’t doing so now, but hopefully these leaders/thinkers are awakening us at least somewhat.

To n0mesorah
When I was under attack from members of the group over watching TV, I did what Halacha prescribes and I spoke to a competent Rav. Numerous members of the thread have criticized you. Why don’t you speak to a legitimate Rav about our concerns? You can start by asking him if you’re correct that one need not believe in Hashem if he does the Mitzvos. Of course, you won’t because no Rov is as smart as you are. Shakespeare wrote, “Vanity thy name is woman.” He didn’t meet N0mesorah.

n0 > That is the proper attitude of a talmid for a rebbe. Everything the rebbe says is unequivocally the Word of the Torah. (A wise student knows not to retain everything as is.)

This is not what some Tanna thought in pirkei avos – a sponge is a first option mentioned for those who sit in front of chachamim, but not the preferred.

Thanks everyone for lots interesting stories and ideas in this thread, with (relatively) little flames! A lot of them are hard for me to fully appreciate .. and I am afraid – for most of you also, despite everyone’s full confidence. Several people kindly replied to my previous remarks, but it seems I failed to make my point. Maybe a couple of chess-players here will understand this: if you played after spending some times trying to be good at this game, you to some degree know where you stand: how good you are, and what is your limit, and what are your strong and weak points … Imagine Samuel Reshevsky (who was one of the best in the world, give and take a couple of other Yidden), and someone tells him in learning – your sevorah is not good … he would probably need a serious proof for that. So, my question for everyone discussing esoteric concepts here – do you have any objective proof that you have great mental capacity to know what you are talking about?
Maybe an SAT score, or Calculus 3 grade, or chess rating, or NYT cross puzzle winning streak, please do. I am not saying you should do any of that nonsense, but I’d like to get some credentials – so that I know who to take seriously in this thread.

n0m: “Avodah zara is about worship. A physical action. Something one does to serve a higher power. It does not take place in the mind.”

Not true. See the very end of Chulin where the gemoro suggests that the reason that the mitzvah of Shiluach Haken did not save a person from falling and dying was because he may have had a “thought” of avodah zarah, in which case the mitzvah would not save him:
דלמא מהרהר בעבודה זרה הוה דכתיב למען תפוש את בית ישראל בלבם ואמר רב אחא בר יעקב זו מחשבת עבודה זרה.

Furthermore, if you attribute spiritual power to a photo, you have certainly transgressed the prohibition of creating/owning an avodah zarah, even if you don’t worship it.

@nomesorah
original 4 statements
A] The rebbi of Habad considered himself to be the messiah.
B] habad hasidim [near]deify their rebbi , more so than any other group or sect in klal Yisrael ever.
C] their rebbi used references to his father in law to indirectly get messages across how others should be regarding himself.
D] Habad , under clear direction of their Rebbe , their rabbanim and their mashpi’im , flip flopped regarding ikarei emuna.
————–
Your responses one by one
A] The rebbi of Habad considered himself to be the messiah.
A] I don’t know what the Rebbe himself thought. He was very skilled at putting distance between what he said and what he implied. (I never met him and it is really hard to find people who knew him that will talk about him as a man. For opposite reasons.)
.
Response A] Now , FYI – I followed your rebbis pronouncements at the time as they were coming out in Dvar Malchut 1991- 1992 . He CLEARLY AND UNEQIUVOCALLY ‘accepted’ his Messiahship ‘bestowed’ on him by his followers [after he guided them to do so] . It is all printed in the kfar habad newspaper of those times, black on white. In the dvar malchut of those times ,black on white. It was common knowledge all over the world at that time. This was the reason that ALL habad rabbanim / mashpi’im / the Chozer r yoel kahn , all without fail , signed on to his messiahship . All this is available in the archives . No need to live in the dark , no need to say ‘I dont know what the rebbi thought’ . It is CLEAR and DOCUMENTED.

@nomesorah
original statement
C] their rebbi used references to his father in law to indirectly get messages across how others should be regarding himself.
———–
nomesorah
C] Possible. Again, I can’t tell for myself. You are entitled to your opinion. But I don’t see it as proof to the larger debate. It is interesting to me, that those that are obsessed with The Rebbe and those that are against him, agree on this. Those of us in the middle, aren’t so sure.
————–
C response] Here I am baffled. Those ‘obsessed with their rebbe’ understand what he wanted . Those ‘in the middle’ are not sure .
1] Have you read the relevant comments ?
2] If he did not use his father in law as a vehicle to influence the hasidim in re to himself – then how come that habad hasidim relate to their rebbi fundamentally different to all other groups ?
Coincidence ?
3] Again -those ‘obsessed’ , understood the message . The results are there , and the cause , not ?
My experience has shown that results do have a cause .
4] In all other habad activities their rebbi gets the credit , Just here not ? Bizarre.

LostSpark: “RSo every time someone brings a picture of R Shayaleh into their house to get rid of mice they are committing AZ?!?”

Good question. I have always had a problem with that, and I don’t know how to justify it. Maybe someone else can come up with a justification.

Dear Arso,

The gemara in Chullin is a nice chap, but I understood it to mean that he has a thought to do the action for avodah zara, same goes for kiddushin. However, I vaguely remember seeing mefarshim that understand it as just thinking. But in that case it would be an issue of minus and not actual idol worship. (Thought is not worship. Though a statement is.) If you want to go back to discussing if there is a minus problem in Chabad or not, I’m all in!

Assuming that all pictures are not a problem of making images, a picture would not become an idol until it is worshipped or specifically created to be worshipped.

I only know of the rebbe picture by the bris from this site. I recall that someone had a reasonable explanation. If I find it I’ll link it. I never saw it in real life. I can’t say for certain if I ever was at a Lubavitcher Bris.

The mice picture also bothers me a little. But that I have seen in a bunch of places.

Try getting the origin and it will stop bothering you

Dear Qwerty,

“Why don’t you speak to a legitimate Rav about our concerns?”

I started having haskafa conversations with Rabbonim when I was ten. I’m not afraid of asking anybody. But I really don’t understand what your concerns are.

Me: I am having debates online with some people who have issues with Chabad but don’t seem to worry about these issues as much as they critique Chabad. What does the Rav say about that?

Rabbi: Stay off the internet.

” You can start by asking him if you’re correct that one need not believe in Hashem if he does the Mitzvos.”

I have gotten this line by many leading Rabbonim. But on this thread I am making an opposite point. The fact is that learning Torah is not just a mitzva but to teach us about our role in Hashem’s World. It was in response to a post that Chabad should not be doing their obligations with the sole purpose of bringing Moshiach. They should just do because of Hashem’s Will. I was countering the last sentence. Not the one before it.

I would be sad for you if you never met a Rov more wise than I.

To n0mesorah

When you post it reminds me of the following “joke”, “That Rabbi’s shiur was so amazing, no one understood a word he said.” That attitude seems to be your stock in trade. I don’t have the foggiest notion of what your beliefs are, because you intentionally speak out of six sides of your mouth. If it makes you happy to think that you’re above us all so be it. From my experience, rational people enjoy open discourse with each side honestly weighing in on the other’s view. That was Menachem Shmei’s stated goal when he opened this thread but he’s apparently learned that his side is untenable and so he’s retreated to his bunker.

“The mice picture also bothers me a little. But that I have seen in a bunch of places.”

I was thinking that perhaps it’s not the paper and print that works, it’s that mice are scared of the image of R Shayale. That would certainly be different to having a picture that can’t be seen on the knees of the sandek at a bris.

Does the segulah of R Shayale work if the picture is covered and can’t be seen?

@nomesorah
original post
D] Habad , under clear direction of their Rebbe , their rabbanim and their mashpi’im , flip flopped regarding ikarei emuna.
———————————
response by nomesorah
D] I don’t really understand why you could think that Ikkarei Emunah are in play here. If you think that everybody starts off being born with them and has to mess them up, then your position would seem tenable. It doesn’t work that way. Every chareidi propaganda publication, messes up on Ikkarei Emunah. How would they not ?
=================================
D response] you ask ‘why I could think ikarei emuna are at play here’ . Simple because thats what all habad rabbanim invoked when they issued their unanimous psak that their rebbi COULD NOT DIE. They and the Chief Chozer of Habad . R yoel Kahn .
[This response of yours creates a niggling doubt that your responses might just be nothing more than a diversion tactic] .This was not merely ‘some propaganda publication’ . This is serious stuff. This was signed by all habad rabbanim and the chozer , clearly based on their rebbi . The OFFICIAL HABAD POSITION . Then the position split . But according to both sides , this psak , based on ikarei emuna , changed .
So , did they flip flop ?
CLEARLY SO .
.
Now- R Menachem Shmei , nomesorah , sechel , and whoever else – should we apply the klal of Shtika KeHoda’a here or not ?

Dear Yankel,

I really don’t know much of these statements. They weren’t intended for me and I never met someone who uses these types of proclamations as a reason for what they think or do. If they thought that way, they will use it as ‘proof’ and if they don’t, they dismiss it. These public directives are barely educational and even less reliable.

My position is that there is nothing wrong with Chabad Hashkafah. It is on par with every other group. I have written this over a dozen times. I don’t know why their media is indicative of how they think in their heads. You have to meet real people to see what their actual belief is.

You shouldn’t be inferring from anyone’s silence where their position has already been stated multiple times.

The Lubavitchers have posted their stance. if you want to learn it from it’s source, they will respond. But not everything is teachable on this forum.

The truth is that if you nag Lakewooders on their kollel ideology, or Satmar on their stance on the State of Israel, or Mizrachi on their stance on The State of Israel, or Gur on their Kedushah doctrine, or MO on secular education, you will not get concrete justification either. They aren’t really interested in debating it. It’s something that is important to them as a group, and it won’t survive if it has to be open to constant questioning.

I think that Chabad has the better of the argument here. All the groups I listed claim that this is something that is supposed to be a maxim for all Jews. Despite it having been developed in the past century. Chabad Doctrine is only for a chassidus. They admit that it doesn’t work for outsiders. You can’t be mekabel The Atzmus of The Rebbe idea, if you don’t perceive yiddishkiet as a group project. And the foundation of these ideas are documented from over two hundred years ago.

It is more likely that Chabad is at the stage of crystalizing a part of the Torah for future generations than starting any new movement in yiddishkeit. Just like the Baalei Tosofos of AShkenaz and the mekubalim of Eretz Yisrael had a last generation, Chabad of today and yesterday may be the ones that give Chassidus it’s final format for posterity.

The other groups I mentioned still have a lot to prove. They could all be looked at as outliers to future generations. And it would become a debated topic if it ever really was authentic. The truth is, only Hashem knows what is authentic to the future. I’m just guessing.

If you want to talk Ikkarei Emunah than please do. What Moshiach’s name is, is of no consequence to Ikkarei Emunah. Tcheyas hameisim is.

To the Group

N0mesorah has declared Chabad the winner of our debate. No surprise, he’s also convinced that the Arabs won the Six Day War and the only reason that history differs is that Jews own the news media. I once heard a Rabbi speak about difficult people. He reminded the audience, “You only have to deal with him a few minutes a day, but he has to live with himself all the time.”