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Arso: here’s further stuff to look into with the mekoros- enjoy learning and let us know what you find
וזוהי השייכות ליעקב אבינו דוקא — כי “נשיא” הוא ר”ת “ניצוצו של יעקב אבינו”55, דכמו שיעקב אבינו הי’ “מאחד את כל ישראל” (כמ”ש בגו”א כאן)56, ובלשון רבינו הזקן57 שנשמת יעקב היתה “כלולה מכל הנשמות שבישראל מעולם ועד עולם” — כן הוא אצל כל נשיא ישראל, שנשמתו היא נשמה כללית הכלולה מכל נשמות אנשי דורו, ולכן הוא מאחד את כולם58.
וזהו שכ’ ופירש רש”י שיעקב אבינו הביא “ארזים” למצרים, כי כל הנשיאים הם ניצוץ של יעקב אבינו, ומקורם הוא מארץ ישראל, כי באמת הם למעלה מענין הגלות59, אלא שכדי להכניס בבנ”י הכח להתגבר על חשכת הגלות ולבנות משכן במדבר, “נטעם” במצרים, בזמן הגלות.
וזוהי נחמתם של ישראל בהיותם ב”מדבר העמים”, שיש להם ה”ארזים” שנטע יעקב אבינו בכל דור ודור60 שהם למעלה מהגלות, ונראים לבנ”י ומשפיעים כח בכל ישראל לא להתפעל מחשכת הגלות כ”א להתגבר עליו, עד שבונים ועושים משכן במדבר.
ואזי זוכים לנחמה השלימה — נחמה כפשוטה ממש, בפועל ממש — שהנחמה היחידה האפשרית על אריכות גלות זה האחרון היא — גאולה האמיתית והשלימה61 על ידי משיח צדקנו, כפשוטה ממש, למטה מעשרה טפחים ממש, ובמהרה בימינו ממש.
(משיחת ש”פ תרומה תשמ”ז)
55) מגלה עמוקות (אופן פד. עה”ת ר”פ ויחי). קהלת יעקב (לבעל מח”ס מלא הרועים) מע’ רבי.
56) ראה גם בית האוצר להר”י ענגל כלל א אות כ’. לקו”ש חכ”ו ע’ 8.
57) אגה”ק ס”ז (קיא, סע”ב).
58) וראה לקו”ש ח”ד ע’ 1051 ובהערות.
59) להעיר מפתגם אדה”ז “שלפני נשמות הגבוהות. . לא נחרב הבית כלל” (פלח הרמון שמות ע’ ז). וראה אוה”ת לנ”ך (כרך ג) ריש ע’ א’שלא.
60) להעיר ממחז”ל (יומא לח, ב. תניא פ”א) עמד ושתלן בכל דור ודור. . וצדיק יסוד עולם.
61) ואז יקויים היעוד (ישעי’ יב, א) אודך ה’ כי אנפת בי ישוב אפך ותנחמני.To n0mesorah
It’s not exactly correct that Rav Dovid humbled himself. This is who he was. He didm’t consider himself superior to anyone
And he learned this from his father. Once Rav Moshe was walming to MTJ and he heard a woman call out Mosishie(she was addressing her son who was also going to the Yeshiva). Rav Moshe turned around thinking that the woman was calling himTo CS
You ask why it’s hard to fathom Hashem handing the world’s car keys to the Rebbe. Aftsr all that’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. Yes tjat’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. But tjete are no Moshiach tryouts. Hashem knows who will take the reins. Sometime hopefully in the non too distant future.Qwerty
“You ask why it’s hard to fathom Hashem handing the world’s car keys to the Rebbe. Aftsr all that’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. Yes tjat’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. But tjete are no Moshiach tryouts. Hashem knows who will take the reins. Sometime hopefully in the non too distant future.”I’m sorry you understand the era of moshiach in this way. Do you really think we’ve been serving Hashem throughout golus so moshiach can come and take over from Hashem??
Dear Yechi,
I don’t think that was me.
Qwerty have you seen in Aleinu everyday that we daven that Hashem will be the only king when moshiach comes
Dear Two,
I completely disagree. Chabad is a modernization of what they were in Europe. Amshinov, Gur, Satmar, Stolin, Klausenberg, Munkatch, and most others have abandoned most of what they had in Europe and picked up completely new ideas. Just look at all the anti chareidi movements that they gave birth to.
Dear Yankel,
I owe you a long response. Though I can’t place my finger on where we disagree. What is your point about Chabad?
If you want to talk about changing hassidic values like socks, than either Gur or Satmar alone have used up all the socks and and left none for Chabad.
Just PSA about nossi hador- nossi hador doesn’t mean that no one else is greater in some way than Moshe- Aharon was greater in Shalom, and Miriam was greater in Emuna/ tambourines. But the mission was Dor Deiah so Moshe was chosen as nossi
How does one know that a person is a tzadik in the Tanya’s definition? In Shamaim they know, but people?
Dear Mdd,
Chabad has more haters because they don’t try to sell themselves to other groups. They do not violate their values for political benefit. And they don’t spend money to promote their power figures. There is no buying the rebbe’s vote because he doesn’t need the money. A dead leader really avoids political struggle.
Dear Arso,
You misunderstand me. I think you have a point about Chabad. I am following along waiting for it to develop more to see if I agree or not. My issue with your posts is that you are making personal judgements about the Rebbe that are not based on what he was thinking but how his actions/statements are being received by you.
Being chassidish in the footsteps of the Baal Shem requires innovations. The issue with Satmar and Gur is the complete u-turns away from their earlier values. Sanz evolves so rapidly it can’t contain itself. In not even two centuries they have well over a hundred breakoffs.
Dear Arso,
Of course I know what you mean when you say ‘The Rebbe’. I assume that Lubavitchers also know what you mean. But it seems like you don’t get what they mean.
Dear Qwerty,
I hear you about militant Chabad. But that rabbi sounds tame. Do you know what was really out there?
Know I understand why you were so upset about the anti TV posts. It was too militant for you.
My question is, do you not know any militant Satmar? I don’t think anybody is literally watching their back from Chabad today. [Other than Chabad on Chabad conflict.]
Dear Qwerty,
In case you misunderstood. This talmid chochom would get the feeling the he was superior to Reb Dovid and he hated himself for feeling that way. When this talmid chochom speaks with any gadol it is with complete self nullification. He couldn’t do it with Reb Dovid.
Dear Always,
“This sounds too easy.”
You really get me frustrated. This question and it’s answer is exactly where we expect to be in the Rambam. You can easily learn it instead of making it up. Is that because it is too easy for you?
Dear Yankel,
The first step of a Navi is that he comes with the Dvar Hashem and says you should do such or not do such and so on. (According to one poster he has to use the words ‘Ko Amar Hashem’.) It is of no consequence to anybody who the navi did not speak to if he is a prophet or not. So even if The Rebbe predicted the Gulf War with prophetic accuracy, he wouldn’t be a prophet since he did not convey Dvar Hashem.
CS: “please show/ quote me where Ispashtusa dMoshe is in the plural”
Plural has nothing to do with it. The explanation I have seen in seforim kedoshim is that there is a hispashtus (sorry, I don’t know how to translate that properly in context) throughout each generation. Not one person but in the entire generation.
To CS
You’re absolutely correct that Moshiach will not take over from Hashem, the responsibility of running the world. I made an incorrect statement and checked myself. But here’s my question, “‘If you acknowledge that Moshiach will not usurp Hashem as the ruler of the world, why do you have no problem with cunin’s(I’m using a lower case “c” because he demeaned Hashem’s Malchus) statement that the Rebbe has already taken over?
Arso-so what? We have that also in Tanya 42 (I’m fluent in Lashon hakodesh and Yiddish BH, no need to translate)
To QWERTY- obnoxious people don’t learn that from Judaism, ie if someone is only Chabad because he thinks no one else has value other than Chabad, he is definitely lacking in ahavas Yisrael and has blemished his own Neshama (see derech mitzvosecha of the
Tzemach Tzedek Mitzvas ahavas Yisrael.)People like this aren’t unique to Chabad…
And I do my best to have no part of such mindset/ behavior. It really comes from a lack of self esteem.
Mdd
“How does one know that a person is a tzadik in the Tanya’s definition? In Shamaim they know, but people?”The difference between a beinoni and tzadik is that a beinoni has a yetzer hara (and doesn’t give in ever) while a tzadik doesn’t because he either put it to sleep (tzadik vra lo) or transformed it to another yetzer Tov (tzadik vtov lo).
You’re right there’s no yetzer hara xray- but you can tell usually from the way a person expresses themselves, whether they struggle with evil or not. If you’ve met/ experienced a tzadik- you would know- they’re on a different plane
Nomesorah,
Sorry about that; it was directed at 2cents I think, but it’s hashgacha pratis since I regretted the post after. Now he won’t notice it to respond and I won’t get dragged into an endless debate….To n0mesorah
Let me explain what I mean by militant Chabad. From my experience, all Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi and that he runs the world. What makes a Lubavitcher militant, in my mind, is if he has no regard for any non Lubavicher. This Rabbi called Rav Aharon Kotler, “Some Rabbi who opened a little Yeshiva in New Jersey.” About the Chafetz Chaim he said, “Had he been Chabad, he might have been something.” No I don’t mean militant in that he beats people up.
n0m
Dear Two,
“I completely disagree. Chabad is a modernization of what they were in Europe. Amshinov, Gur, Satmar, Stolin, Klausenberg, Munkatch, and most others have abandoned most of what they had in Europe and picked up completely new ideas. Just look at all the anti chareidi movements that they gave birth to.”
Care to detail what was abandoned and why Chabad is juts a modernization of the past vs completely new ideas?
For starters, most of what Chabad does is based on his Sicha or that Meimer of the Rebbe. I respect that, but I also appreciate that this is more of a newer tradition vs a modernization.
In reality, is there much of a difference between modernization vs new tradition? Once you deviate, your no longer a continuation of the past.
n0m,
“ If you want to talk about changing hassidic values like socks, than either Gur or Satmar alone have used up all the socks and and left none for Chabad.”
So the way it went, these chasidim came out from Europe and simply continued living their traditional chassidishe lives. The same people, with the same traditions.
In fact, they proud themselves with that.
Chabad seems to most as if there was some pivoting and and changed from what was considered chasidus in pre war Europe.
I’m sure there is a good explanation to that.
To CS
I don’t know what you’re referring to when you mention obnoxious people. I assume it’s directed at something I said. In any event you’re certainly correct that there are good and bad apples in every bunch. I’ve yried to make it clear that my issues with Chabad theology are not personal and that’s why I can attend a Chabad minyan.
Yechi,
I took a quick look through the recent pages and it seems none of your posts are addressing anything I’ve posted.
CS
“You’re right there’s no yetzer hara xray- but you can tell usually from the way a person expresses themselves, whether they struggle with evil or not. If you’ve met/ experienced a tzadik- you would know- they’re on a different plane”
The question was about “how,” but it seems you couldn’t provide a direct answer. You mentioned having a method of knowing, yet it’s not objective and you are unable to explain how it works.
Additionally, could you specify the source indicating that tzadikim no longer possess a yetzer harah?
I’m not implying that “the Rebbe” wasn’t a tzadik, just seeking clarification on your statement.
Qwerty,
You still didn’t answer how you can daven in a Chabad shul if you really consider it a”z.
Seems like there is a pending checkmate.@menachem
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between your bias and my [supposed] bias . Yours PREDATED the issue , whereas mine [in your eyes] is a RESULT of this issue .
We are discussing the issue. I am saying that your response to the issue is colored by your PREEXISTING bias , whereas my response has no pre existing bias .
The difference is so simple that it is mind boggling that an [ostensibly ] moderate habad supporter like you would ignore it .To the group –
Read Nomesorahs arguments on this thread . It seems like their only purpose is to distract from the issues raised here ….
Sorry this is not personal . You might very well be a terrific individual in real life …@nomesorah
“Though I can’t place my finger on where we disagree. What is your point about Chabad?”
——————
Please read my posts . Hope it is clear enough ….
.To the Group
A careful read of the comments reveals that all the habad defenders have one thing in common . They are swept up in the benefits of their movement ,coupled with explicit lifelong conditioning from their rebbi to totally ignore any criticism of their movement .
That is leading them to ignore the crux of the issues raised, and instead focus on other tangent unrelated points which serve as a smokescreen enabling them to avoid the points raised.
.
Just a small question – when their rebbe told his hasidim to “phaiph” , who do you think they were phaiphing on ?
They were phaiphing on us , on our criticism of habad . On our questions .
.
So is it any wonder that they seem to be ,excuse the expression, “hard of hearing” , when it comes to criticism .
Their rebbe did a good job , they are well prepared.
Please habad hasidim , this is not meant to upset you , you are wonderful people and you are to be admired for the manifold qualities you embody .
But that does not make those issues disappear.n0m: “Amshinov, Gur, Satmar, Stolin, Klausenberg, Munkatch, and most others have abandoned most of what they had in Europe and picked up completely new ideas. Just look at all the anti chareidi movements that they gave birth to.”
Would you mind explaining that because I have no idea what you’re talking about?
CS: “Aharon was greater in Shalom, and Miriam was greater in Emuna/ tambourines”
Where on earth did you get that from?
n0m: “The issue with Satmar and Gur is the complete u-turns away from their earlier values. Sanz evolves so rapidly it can’t contain itself. In not even two centuries they have well over a hundred breakoffs.”
Please explain the u-turns of the first two and rapid evolution of Sanz.
n0m: “Of course I know what you mean when you say ‘The Rebbe’. I assume that Lubavitchers also know what you mean. But it seems like you don’t get what they mean.”
I’m specifically talking about – and I’ve said this now a number of times – the Lubavich claim that when other non-Lubavich chassidim say the words “the rebbe” they are openly referring only to the Lubavicher rebbe, not to their own rebbe.
CS: “Arso-so what? We have that also in Tanya 42 (I’m fluent in Lashon hakodesh and Yiddish BH, no need to translate)”
We have WHAT also in Tanya 42? And my “apology” for not translating hispashtus wasn’t davka for you. It was for anyone reading who may not have understood.
A gutte voch from my locality!
Qwerty- I meant obnoxious to what you described as militant Chabad. As to your question about moshiach not usurping Hashems rule so why does The Rebbe, my point was that The Rebbe doesn’t the same way Moshiach doesn’t- same idea (obviously Moshiach on a higher plane.) if you’re not sure what that’s gonna look like, I’ll be happy to explain, there’s a Maamar by the Tzemach Tzedek called Minui Melech that addresses this.The opening question is: why would decent frum people need a king anyway? They don’t need to be policed- they don’t commit crimes! (And especially by Moshiach- what’s his role anyway?)
I’m sure your local Chabad rabbi can learn it with you inside- otherwise happy to help if needed
2scents I appreciate your posts (plus I learned more over Shabbos for the atzmus investigators) hopefully next time I can write
Qwerty here’s one from my spouse: does your head run your body or Hashem? Is it a contradiction?
To 741
The answer to your question is simple. While I and many others believe that Chabad is on an AZ trajectory, it is not actually AZ until an official Psak is declared. Therefore I have no problem davening in that shul. Moreover, only the Rabbis are Chabad not the congregants. Finally, the Rabbis are lovely people and we like and respect each other despite pir theological differences.
Re
used socks
Please check the original post .
It was not referring to hasidic socks at all .It was referring to changing IKAREI EMUNA , things which are the ABSOLUTE FOUNDATIONS of our belief , like used socks .
Someone who is willing to discard and change IKAREI EMUNA for conveniences sake
1] is delivering a ringing slap right in the face of millions of maaminim through the generations who lived a life of mesirat nefesh mamash to uphold just those ikarei emuna .
2] Thats besides the immense chizuk a certain religion, bent on soul snatching , preferably Jewish soul snatching , is getting for the propagation of their false messiah and his second coming …
3] All That is besides losing ones Chezkat Kashrut when it comes to trusting them ever again in this field until and unless a thorough and complete overhaul is conducted, pinpointing how and why such aberrations occurred and what will be done to stop it from ever happening again .Changing Ikarei Emuna is much much more than , lehavdil, changing the Constitution of the United States . Imagine if some people would sneak in to the place where the original document is housed , change the text and then claim that their text is the correct one and that all US affairs are to be conducted according to the new text .
Can you imagine the chaos and turmoil this would engender ?Menachem,
I didn’t have a chance to delve into the specific passage you mentioned from the Tanya, but generally speaking, Chazal teach us that every person, regardless of their stature, contends with a Yetzer Harah. The principle of “כל הגדול מחבירו יצרו גדול ממנו” holds true in this regard. It doesn’t contradict the concept of “ובערת הרע מקרבך”, “צדיקים יצר טוב שופטן”.
However, the central point is that we lack a definitive yardstick to objectively determine whether someone has attained a level (assuming it exists) where they no longer possess a Yetzer Harah.
CS
“2scents I appreciate your posts (plus I learned more over Shabbos for the atzmus investigators) hopefully next time I can write”
Why is it necessary to hold “the Rebbe” to the highest standard of ‘tzidkus’ requiring you to learn more about the subject? Why not simply accept “the Rebbe” as is, even without being certain about his level of tzidkus?
qwerty: “the Rabbis are lovely people and we like and respect each other despite pir [sic] theological differences”
That’s something I don’t understand. If you hold that their views are a”z how can you like and respect them? Could you possibly like and respect a xian who was trying to missionize you?
To CS
You apparently misunderstood my question, so I’ll repeat it. If you challenged me for sayi g that Moshiach will run the world do you also challenge cunin for saying that the Rebbe runs the world?
To yankel berel
Kudos for your straightfoward approach. The KISS method works best in dealing with Chabad.
2scents- looks like the second part of your question was answered by Menachem
As far as knowing who is tzadik etc- what we can measure is speech and action/ sometimes thought in facial expression etc
But beinoni and tzadik alike have mastered that. So that’s why I said you can see a tzadik is a different plane- like the Rambam says when he discusses nevuah- that after a Chacham reaches a certain level in Avodas Hashem- his senses become elevated- ie he gets ruach hakodesh and people can tell
Also I noted that when people struggle with evil, even if they do good, they will express that in their words as well… I hope that’s clearer
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