Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

Dear Yechi HaMelech @chochom,

If you’re going to accept Likutei Sichos as an important basis of your Yiddishkeit, than surely you accept the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s repeated statements that he’s no Moshiach and begging the messianics to stop their activities as true too, no? So then by that logic, it’s impossible for the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach.

I don’t per-se have a problem with Chabad. Not only that, but I admire many things about it. I love both the Rebbe and the Alter Rebbe’s Torah. In terms of ‘Chabad Torah’, I really appreciate the ‘Rational’ Chassidus of Chabad – it’s grounded, rational, enlightening and makes סתרי תורה understandable and accessible. I also appreciate how Chabadniks have a real צפייה לישועה – something many religious factions of Judaism sadly lack – and I also greatly admire the grounded nature and obvious צידקות of the Rebbe. I also am terribly sad with the way that the great Chabad (and, more broadly, Chasidic) Rebbe’s and thinkers (shout out to R’ Steinsaltz) are completely ignored, or perceived negatively, despite them obviously being of immense stature, by the litvishe world of which I am a part.

However, I do also struggle with certain aspects of Chabad. Primarily this is often due to more segregated and close minded aspects I see within it. I feel like this seeps into many partsof Chabad life and I’ve seen it with my (moderate) Chabad friends in numerous different ways:

1) You are expected to marry Chabad – I know a Chabad girl who met a really nice, serious litivishe guy who was even frummer than her in all walks of Yiddishkeit, but her father disdained her marrying ‘out’ and nearly tore her apart trying to prevent the relationship going ahead… How do you expect to ever not be perceived as different by more moderate and broad members of Klal Yisrael when they see that?

2) Men must have a beard – speaking as someone who only knows more moderate (a term I don’t mean disparagingly at all, by the way) Chabadniks who are integrated into Ashkenazic society where I live, despite all their peers and everyone they are around their whole lives and in broader society being clean shaven, they either have a beard or are an extreme dissapointment to their parents. I understand the importance of having a beard and the spiritual significance – I myself have a beard for that reason! And yet, how can you put your child in such a difficult social situation where they will almost immediately be somewhat of an outcast (unfortunately)? At the end of the day there are plenty of poskim who allow shaving, and even if is far from ideal, יש על מה לסמוך, and in todays climate in חוץ לארץ we should not be forcing kids to have a beard, forcing them to choose between social and societal acceptance or their religion! We need to learn to adapt and rely on the poskim להקל even when it’s not ideal, if that’s what the times require! In general, this is something I think Chabad isn’t the best at – it struggles to see outside it’s box of values, and occasionally rely on opinions outside it’s own core faction, when neccessary in order to be a part of society – and especially Jewish society – at large, and be a part of the rest of Jewish society. This is something it needs to learn from the other Chassidus’, which have integrated really really well in general over the past 80 years with the Litvish Chareidi (!) society they used to be so disparate from. I wish to see the day Chabad learns how to integrate better into the rest of society!

3) The perspective on the Rebbe – for now I don’t speak of the real, true messianic Chabadniks. Even other, more moderate, Chabadniks become close-minded when it comes to the Rebbe. The Rebbe was a real Godol, and I get that he will never mean as much for me as he does for a Chabadnik, but just like all other great Jewish leaders he was a person at the end of the day. He can be critiqued, he can make mistakes, you can quote dissenting opinions… And yet, Chabad revere the Rebbe so much that they often don’t seem to bother learning other Torah’s with other view-points. Just like it’s a shame the litivishe world can’t see the value of Chabad, it’s a shame Chabad can’t seem to see the value of other gedolim and rabbonim. Theirs a wealth of revered gedolim that we have in recent Jewish history and I genuinely believe we want to encourage a socoiety where all can be learned and their Torah can be revered – whether it is the The Chazon Ish, Rav Kook, The Rebbe, Chassidus, neo-Chassidus, R’ Ashlag, R’ Soloveitchik, etc., etc., to name a few. Chabad takes a step back with this, as all Torah that is not strictly Chabad, and in particularly the Rebbe and the Alter Rebbe, is virtually null and void and irrelevant. This is a great shame.

4) The slightly-extreme-almost-sabbatical-messianism-a-lot-of-Chabad-has-regarding-the-Rebbe – This topic has been exhausted, so I won’t dwell on it. The only thing I’d add is that the more I’ve seen of Chabad, the more I’ve seen it’s not just a small, fringe, radical part of Chabad, but rather far more pervasive even amongst so called ‘moderate’ / ‘normal’ Chabadniks then I had orginally thought. How far it spreads, I’m not sure… Perhaps the OP can shed more light on this for the rest of us… What percentage of Chabad really believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? What nuances lie there-in (i.e., how many simply view him as a ניצוץ of Moshiach, how many believe he is dead but Moshiach, how many believe he is not even dead, etc., etc…)? Either way, I have personally found that the more I see Chabadniks in their so-called ‘natural habitat’ and the more comfortable they become around you, the more I see the slightly radical and imo unhinged messianic opinions creep to the surface.

Lastly, when not among Chabadniks, the rest of us barely ever speak about Chabad. It is only really when talking with Chabad people. The CR is not representative at all of larger Judaism.

@sechel83 The Meshichisters created a l’mafreya concept of Moshiach from the dead, claiming it’s always existed. At no point in (literally hundreds) of false Moshiachs and Moshiach cults that we have spawned in the last 2000+ years, has anyone announced a Moshiach who was dead. Until 1996.

@vdnrtakh1 AdirBMelucha. I disagree with points one and two. Most frum Jews are reluctant to allow their children to marry someone from a different background. Shtarkeh Chassidim won’t marry Litvaks, many Sephardim won’t marry Ashkenazim, a Yeshivhishe family won’t marry into a Vizhnitzer family. Especially Chabad which expects a certain lifestyle of shlichus and other practices that a non-Chabad family may not want. As for beards, it’s a Chassidishe thing. The issur of shaving also includes scissoring away the entire beard.

Anecdotal story time……………………….
At the extreme edge of my small town there is a small Chabad operation with a little shul attached. In all these years I have never been there, as It is far too long a walk and they don’t hold weekday services.
During my shloshim for Mrs. CTL, the Chabad rabbi was called for a tenth for a evening minyan at my regular Litvish minyan. He arrived, no questions asked. I had met him about town over the years, but have had no personal relationship.
Sunday at 6 PM my cell phone rang and it was the same local Chabad Rabbi. He had yarhzeit starting that night and could I come at 9PM for Maariv. I explained that I’d be 15 minutes further away at Mincha-Maariv starting at 8:15 and could not guaranty arriving for 9. He replied, I know we are on you way home, if you commit, we’ll hold off until you arrive, as we can’t start without 10.
Upon arrival, I noticed large Melech HaMoshiach posters on the rear wall of the shul. there were no posters or pictures that could be construed as icons on the eastern wall. I stood for Borchu, sat to learn, and made the appropriate responses and made recited the mourner’s kadish. At the end of the minyan, the rabbi asked if I could attend Monday morning. I replied that I’d be at my regular minyan and that my talis and tephiilin were there. He asked what time we daven and I said 6:30, he replied, great we’ll daven at 8. So Monday morning after my regular minyan, I drove to Chabad. I walked in sat down with a sefer to learn at a side table. I got up to look for a sefer on their shelves and the rabbi rushed over to assist, asked what I was looking for and handed me an all Hebrew and another with translation if I so desired. I thanked him and sat down. Turns out two others from my regular minyan showed up at 8 to make sure there was a minyan. They sat with me. I mentioned the posters on the wall and both said that they have seen the posters in the past, but never has one word been uttered when they were present about the Rebbe as Moshiach.
After minyan, I has a coffee and sat and talked with the Rabbi for half an hour. Again, no mention of the posters or the Moshiach agenda. I certainly did not question it.
If this is a belief within their sect, but no attempt is made to spread it, I cannot be publicly critical. Nothing about the minyan seemed odd, the men there were either old or college students, all with the same purpose in mind. To make sure there was a minyan for the Yahrzeit and daven.

This was not the in your face Chabad I know from the big cities.

somehow every chabad topic turns to moshiach.
b”h chabad taught the world to think about moshiach, i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew and acceptance, non judging of every jew will spread to the rest of the world, and we will great moshiach very soon.

“i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew”

Except for actual frum yidden.

Neville and coffee-addict, you upset me by beating me to it!

Ortho: “Did you really just claim that no messianic movement ever started ever continued to claim someone was moshiach after he died?? Thats not in the slightest true. It’s in fact a reoccuring phenomena and has occured throughout the ages… Very famously this happened with Shabtai tzvi.”

Just remember, you’re the one who said it!

Rso,

I know u want this to somehow be a point, but for the life of me i dont see how it is one without beginning the question

so the chofetz chayim promoted ahavas yisroel and being carefull about lashon hara. we should all be more carefull in that. yes chabad believes that hashem created the world to have a dirah bitachtonim, which we accomplish by every mitzvah we do, it will be completed when moshiach comes – see tanya perekim 36-37. actually this idea is the most in line with doing mitzvos only to fullfill the ratzon of hashem. too deep to explain. learn hemshach yom tov shel rosh hashana 5666 to understand at length (close to 1 thousend pages) or at least the first 100 pages or so to get an idea. one point, all the other reasons it says in gemara, medrash, zohar, are all reasons that are intellectual, נתאוה הקב”ה להיות לו דירה בתחתונים is only because hashem was נתאוה. there is no reason why hashem desires this. and no gain either to hashem or us. only hashem desires.

Oh my… Did he seriously just use Shabbatei Tzvi (and implicitly also Yushke and any other dead moshiach) as an argument in FAVOR of Chabad meshichism?

Dude, unless you’re a double-agent for the anti-Chabad side, you might want to take a little break from this thread. You know it’s bad when RSo (the evil misnaged) is more strict about saying “lehavdil” so people won’t think he’s comparing the Rebbe to SZ than you are.

Right… Being against the Lubavitcher rebbe automatically makes someone not a tzadik… Do you think that the gra and the noda byehudah were not tzadikim because they opposed the baal shem tov? Of course I don’t think a comparison is warranted, but for a completely opposite reason you do

I have heard many adults use the term snag as denigrating Litvishe and non-Lubavich chassidim.

Avira,

“The other poster was referring to legitimate movements, yeshivos, chasidusen, communities…no gedolim are on record accepting this idea.”

“False messiahs” and “messianic cults” arent exactly the phrasing i would use for “Legitimate movements”. Now we are switching it from movements to gedolim. As ive already mentioned in the previous thread there were people who did continue to believe in their rebbe after their passing, very great talmidei chachamim and tzadikim(the shtefaneshter rebbe was a known baal mofes). But naturally what i expect for u to do(which is al derech what berger does) is to make broad declarations that moshiach from the dead isnt a thing in judaism, and when given sources pull the line back to well its a das yachid, and then to well to well they are just pirushim, to well no legitimate jews ever claimed it in real life to no LEARNED jews ever claimed it in real life, to then well no gedolim. And who is a gadol? Well whoever u define gadol as. Shkoyach. its disingenuous argument and a gaps argument. Much like people who argue well g-d must exist because science cant account for X, they find a way to account for x and u pull the line back to something else. it’s a losing and weak position.

“It is used mainly by immature bochurim in yeshiva”

That’s still an issue. It’s not normal for yeshiva bochrim to use slurs about other types of yidden. That’s not “kid’s being kid’s.” That’s a serious problem that your community needs to address. Also, if no adults ever use it, then where do the kids learn it? They re-invent the word every generation?

“The claim that no false moshiachs or moshiach cults ever claimed this isnt true and shabtai tzv would be a valid example of what was claimed here as the words “false moshiach” and “moshiach cults” were used.”

OK, so perfect. You agree that Chabad fits perfectly in line with all prior false moshiach cults. Can we be done then?

Avira,

Ur again being disingenuous as to the flow of this conversation. Nowhere did I list any of the people u mentioned as gedolim. I already repeated the claim I was addressing which, again, included less than respectable people hence the reference to shabtai tzvi. I didn’t even claim dovid alroys followers were gedolim. I only used it as an example of people who are legitimate Jewish people that produced these claims. U have now, seeing that I have things to say about movements and even talmidei chachamim who do not dismiss this idea, taken refuge in ur favorite word gedolim defining who is a gadol per ur desire and thereby somehow attempting to win this argument because no gadol ever said it themselves on somebody. Cool. Ur losing ground and making excuses

Neville,

That’s a twist of my words. I expected better from someone who claims to be of superior Torah learning to advance such a clear misapplication of my words. That someone was claimed to be moshiach after they died was said by legitimate and illegitimate movements. This is again, the illogical argument of guilt of similarity. Christians also believe moshe gave the 10 commandments shall we throw those out to? The problem is u are not demonstrating but presupposing that this similarity of min hameisim is somehow the only time u can’t have something in common with another religion and is problematic. So far I’m the only one to quote actual Torah sources. And when no response can be given I just get skepticism and dismissive hand waving and a question of my motives. All of these are not proper responses

Orthodoxrabbi,

So you’re using the source that he can come from the dead by a person that says his father is moshiach but you’re arguing that his father is moshiach?

He would say the rebbe isn’t moshiach because it’s his father

Neville, you insulted me greatly with this description: “RSo (the evil misnaged)”. I would much rather you had called me by my correct title: SNAG!

Now down to less serious stuff. I find it interesting that with all the back and forth no one – including Ortho – has answered the claim, mentioned by a number of posters, that before Gimmel Tammuz the proof that the Lubavicher rebbe was Mashiach was that Mashiach HAS TO BE SOMEONE ALIVE at the time. And don’t tell me that that isn’t true. It’s 100% true.

As I wrote earlier – perhaps in a different thread – I heard many many times, “Look around. Who is greater nowadays than the Lubavicher rebbe? And Mashiach has to be someone alive, so he must be Mashiach.”

Then, during the levayah (that did or did not take place; it depends on whom you ask in Lubavich) papers were distributed that implied that the Lubavicher rebbe said that Mashiach can be someone who had died. This was NOT an acceptable opinion on Beis Tammuz! Ortho, I don’t know how long you’ve been around Lubavich, but I venture to say that I have been around much much longer, so please don’t try arguing with me what the official Lubavich policy was prior to Gimmel Tammuz.

Again, as I’ve said in the past, people who can blithely change what to them was one of the ikarei emunah to suit themselves, never had an ounce of emunah. Not beforehand and not afterwards.

“I expected better from someone who claims to be of superior Torah learning”

When did I ever claim this? I’m openly an am haaretz.

“This is again, the illogical argument of guilt of similarity.”

You were the one who made the comparison, not us. In fact, I didn’t even word my response in a degrading way. My point was that you misspoke so atrociously that you did your side more harm than good, and by digging your heels in you’re making it worse. I think your best bet is to just admit that you shouldn’t have brought up Shabbatei Tzvi/false moshiachs. It didn’t help your case by anyone’s standards, presumably even those of other Lubavitchers.

RSo: Many in Chabad seem to think he’s still alive in some capacity (eg. writing “shlita” after his name). I guess that’s another way of getting around the issue. I’m not sure which is worse. From my experience, internally in Chabad “mishichist” refers to the “still alive” camp, and “non mishichist” refers to the resurrection camp. The assertion that there are Lubavitchers who believe the moshiach will be someone other than the Rebbe is purely mythological from my observations.

Coffee addict,

Nowhere did I make the argument that he would say the rebbe is Moshiach. But ur attempt to make this out to be entirely unhelpful to my case is frankly ridiculous. Here is a tzadik and Talmid chachom who claims his father will come back from the dead and be moshiach. An idea which is being said to be impossible according to Judaism. If a Lubavitcher wants to argue likewise he has precedent for 1. Someone coming from the dead 2. It being his own rebbe over other people.

Menachem: Of course words of Tora may not be spoken in the bathhouse; and that includes the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Sichos and Ma’amorim. But what makes the word “Rebbe” holier than “Acharon”, “Rishon”, Gaon”, “Amoro”, “Tanno”, or even “Novi”?