Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

To Always

“Every little idiocy.” Was Christianity a little idiocy?

Are there any?

To mdd1

Exactly. As I’ve stated, when I joined this thread I thougjt it would be the typical Moshiach can come from the dead, no he can’t debate. I had no idea it would it would turn into a discussion as to whether or not the Rebbe is god.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

I can’t speak for the others, but I don’t know how to read such postings. I learn woth Artscroll. Now since you printed the letter it implies that I didn’t present it accurately. I just repeated what that Rabbi said. If you feel that he made mistake(s) then by all means correct them. I told you I’m not learned.

To Always

A
What does Chabad have to do, in your opinion, to take it beyond the pale?

I don’t necessarily agree in full with YankelBerel’s understanding of the problem with Lubavich but I definitely agree with him and Avirah that major part of it is the focus on Chabad chassidus and concepts found in Kabbalah.

I have Lubavich relatives with children who try their hardest to get me to accept that the Rebbe is Mashiach and/or alive, and that he is the Nassi Hador (as I have written, a totally non-existent concept for centuries), and in order to “prove” it they quote Kabbalistic concepts which they clearly do not understand, and which I, an absolute novice in Kabbalah, understand better than they do.

I have a better understanding of math and physics than the average person, and I know not only that E=mcSquared but I can explain the meaning of the equation, but I don’t REALLY understand it. That, in my opinion, is how Lubavichers learn and teach chassidus.

Someone mentioned that there was a very good reason that they ruled that Kabbalah should be not be studied by someone under the age of forty, and I believe a major reason for the ban was that concepts that have to REMAIN abstract may be taken literally by someone younger, and lead to hagshamah – believing in a physical manifestation of Hashem c”v. To me, therefore, it is not surprising that Lubavich is able to accept people who believe that their rebbe is akin to Hashem, that he runs the world etc.

Citing the example I brought earlier, perhaps Menachem can tell us how great the outcry in Lubavich was when that crazy wrote “Who Elokeinu?… The rebbe melech hasmashiach, that’s who!” After all, it wasn’t just some looney who said it. It was published in a Lubavich publication which continued to be published long after that issue hit the stands.

Was there an outcry? Was he loudly and vehemently condemned? Perhaps someone can send us a Kol Korei against it. It should certainly have been considered a “chilul Lubavich”!

Dear Yankel,

“For thousands of years – since matan torah – we had one thing and one thing only- in our public domain. Nigleh . Even though Nistar is an integral part of the torah , it was not in the public domain . this started to change from the time of the publication of the Zohar , the earlier Mekubalim, the Ari and his disciples , but was mainly popularized since the advent of the Baal Shem and his talmidim.”

Farcical, erroneous, pure fiction.

For the first thousand years after Mattan Torah, there was so much Esoteric Torah that the revelation of the Zohar would be nothing but an opaque curtain to hide the Toras Haniglah. The next thousand years was the formation of our classical books. There is only one work that sticks to niglah = The Mishna. There is a parallel work that only sticks to nistar = Sefer Yetzirah. If we had to divide all the works of this period into nistar versus niglah, two thirds of it would be nistar. But that is only what survived. Using historical analysis, we know that while some niglah was lost only some nistar survived.

At that time, there wasn’t anything in the public domain. An individual had to come to Bais Medrash to learn Torah. A rebbe could refuse to teach a talmid that was not up to the material, but there was no ‘hiding’ of esoteric teachings. See the public sermons that have been preserved in the Midrashim.

The major change is the rise in universal literacy. Even when The Zohar was printed, it was not legible to most of the lay people because of unfamiliar terminology and obscure abbreviations. The Baal Shem did not advocate spreading Kabbala any more than most of his contemporaries. His contribution to Lurianic Mysticism was his insistence not to spread the other versions of Kabbalah. The Polish Mekubalim of that era had a potpourri of teachings that were contradictory and of unknown origins that were being widely disseminated. The nearby countries had many kabbala tinged public speakers and books. Germany was going through a downturn in Torah study in general, but the Shelah was already a prominent sefer.

I don’t see why Chabad is the issue when you have complete goyim studying The Zohar and Arizal and publishing in all languages.

Dear Mdd,

“So, ….. what is the problem with Christianity? Why did the GR”A put Chassidim into cheirem?”

1) The Christians stopped observing. Why is this so hard for you to realize? Are you not observant?

2) You can read the posters that the Gaon signed for yourself. But that assumes that you realize you are talking about three different things.

Dear Avira,

It easier for me and you when we can discuss all our differences in one post.

“Menachem, there are many things in medrashim that we don’t understand; this is a great example. The rambam rules that if one believes that Hashem gave over command of a part of the world to a malaach, or a kochav, or anything else, he is an oved avodah zara. That’s halacha lemaysoh. Thinking that Hashem gave over control of the world to a tzadik is the same thing.”

I went back to find the post and couldn’t. But the midrash says that ‘He is a partner with Hashem in the Act of Creation!’ However you understand it, the point stands. These statements are not out of bounds. Not only that, but these statements are the very basis for the teaching of what constitutes boundaries in esoteric and mystical doctrines. Why would anyone think that The Rebbe meant something the Midrash doesn’t. He knew the Rambam better than we did.

The Rambam calls this minus. There is no A”Z without an action. We went through this on this thread. But once it got down to what the Rambam says without any implication on Lubavitch, all the ministers of the holy inquisition lost interest.

[On a side note, I mentioned a Chinuch that says that the Mitzva of listening to a Navi is at any time there is a Navi. Nothing about it not possible in our day. Like he writes in many other places.]

It is not practical halacha until we can read minds. What someone says and what they themselves value are not the same thing. Unless the individual is a man of extreme integrity. It is also not a matter of halacha for the individual. If the person thinks that this is the proper belief, they will understand the Rambam in accordance with their view. Many fanatics of astrology awere all over the Rambam and the Moreh, even though he criticizes astrology extensively.

How did you get that thinking a Tzaddik can completely change reality is the same thing?!? And why is it okay for all other gedolim to teach such a claim?

To n0mesorah

Yankel Berel is absolutely right, but he wasn’t able to pass through your fine sifter. I’ll present his views in a way that even you won’t be able to challenge them. I heard Rav Reuvein Feinstein speak about 30 years ago and he said the following, “Judaism is very simple. You need to believe in Hashem and learn the basic laws. There’s nothing to it.” So you buy Kosher Tefilin and Mezuzos. Wear Tzitis. Find reliable places to buy Kosher food. Attend shiurim and go to a good Shul(s). That’s what Hashem wants from us. In no way are we enjoined to delve into the esoteric. In fact, in Parshas Nitzavim we’re clearly told that our realm is Nigleh. And after Shabbetai Tzvi, safeguards were instituted to keep the masses from studying such materials, but Chabad ignored all this and decided to go against the norm. It is now reaping what it sowed in violating the edict of our Rabbonim. As for your statement that there was great knowledge of Sisrei Torah thousands of years ago. You’re absolutely right, but we learn from the incident of the Merkavah that even the greatest Tannaim couldn’t handle such mysterious subjects. It was only Rabbi Akiva who was sufficiently grounded in Nigleh who could thrive in both worlds. And the same is true for Rashbi. Yes, we call him the father of Kabbalah, but he’s also found throughout Shas dealing in the most mundane subjects. Rabbi Butman declared on numerous occasions that when Moshiach comes Nigleh will be replaced b y Nister. That’s blatant Kefirah. They will, however, coexist because people will be on a Madreigah which allows them to delve into both realms.

Dear Arso,

“It is very much in line with their ludicrous statement – again, I’ve heard this one many times – that when other chassidim say stam “the Rebbe” the mean the Lubavicher rebbe unless they specify a different title.”

Now this is getting real. Other chassidim – especially the more organized groups – know very little Chassidus. The Rebbe in an organized chassidus is more likely to push learning Halachah over Chassidus. So, any mainstream Lubavitcher transposes all their terms into Chabad. This makes perfect sense to me.

Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning , [1] the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then [2] it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
Caveat – They are wonderful people ,just theologically mistaken .

Dear Cs,

Reb Schneur Kotler was exceptionally fluent in Tanya. (Exceptional; because it was common for the top bochurim in certain Litvishe Yeshivos of Pre War Europe to be fluent in Tanya.) His Yartziet is also Gimmel Tammuz (5742).

To Yankel Berel

Your last post was fabulous. Obviously it will fall on deaf ears, but you really made it clear that Lubavitchers just change the narrative to fit what they want the outcome to be. Paul Simon said it best, “All lies in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” Oh no here comes the peanut gallery again. How can you call yourself a Jew? Don’t you know that there was a Kol Koreh signed by 137 Gedolim outlawing rock? On a serious and personal note, I really appreciate your coming to my defense. It was more important for the right wingers in this thread to get me to submit to their pressure tactics than to focus on the real issue, which is exposing Chabad. Obviously, no Lubavitcher in the thread is going to have an immediate epiphany, but the truth ultimately wins out. To that point Rabbi Miller said that if you keep repeating the truth those that fought you will eventually quote you.

CS, the Yidden believed that Moshe Rabbeinu was a real messenger of Ha”SHEm, a real novi.

Nomesorah- thanks but what was that in reference to?

Dear Qwerty,

I enjoyed your response.

I don’t think the classical pitfalls of learning Kabbalah apply here. Chabad ignores practical Kabbalah which was the downfall of Sabbtai Tzvi and others. They are not studying the intense devotions that risk ones mental state. It isn’t really much different than other groups hashkafos besides for that it is grounded more in The Rebbe’s persona than the community at large.

Vilna Gaon has an explanation on Emuna in Moshe.
Runs opposite to what habad would want it to be .

To n0mesorah
Your latest posting reminds me of an incident that occurred probably a de ade ago. Rabbi Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program. Someone called challenged him for teaching Torah to a gentile Cory Booker. He tried a few times to change the subject, bit finally he came up with, “It’s only Asur to teach Torah to a goy if you want to convert him.” Boteach has one law, je’s always right. The same for n0mesorah. Thete’s an ironclad Psak against learning Kabbalah which Chabad dismisses and Nom defenfs themby saying Chabad only studies safe Kabbalah. No such distimction exists, but Nom like Boteach can’t accept beimg beaten

Dear Mdd.

The break over observance came well before their formulation of a comprehensive theology.

@ nomesorah
…. classical pitfalls of learning Kabbalah apply here. Chabad ignores practical Kabbalah which was the downfall of Sabbtai Tzvi and others. They are not studying the intense devotions that risk ones mental state. It isn’t really much different than other groups hashkafos ……
.
You are either not getting it or ignoring on purpose . Would suggest you reread the relevant post slowly and carefully …..

@CS
Re emuna in Moshe Rabenu –
Gaon from Vilna explains this very simply –
They had Emuna that Moshe’s actions and words were fully grounded in in his Avdut . In the fact that he is merely an Eved ,a servant . With no personal interests , no illusions of personal grandeur. As a result they could rest assured that his message which he brought to the Yidden was pure Dvar HaShem ,unadulterated.
The emuna was not in Moshe . The emuna was in his Avdut.

Main point is not “yes kabala not kabala”
Widespread accessibility and delving into kabala is a fact anyway. .
Point to be taken now , is learning and delving into it with an ASSURANCE that one understands it properly , ask questions , come up with answers , bring proofs etc. in an absolute manner like in nigleh . That is mistaken and dangerous , in my view at least .
.
The Gaon says that of all talmidie ARI , only r chaim vital understood the nimshal . Being that the Ari when discoursing about kabala , only said what he wanted to convey , in the form of a mashal , not the nimshal itself .
.
Thats where habad is going haywire . They approach it with the full self assurance typically associated with their other activities .
.
Anything not within our clearly accepted mesorah from our great grandparents, “proven” by habad of the last 70 years , based on kabala , is suspicious.
Refer to my previous post where you can see habad theological acrobatics on display .
Each twist and each turn was at the time supported by myriad “proofs” , with footnotes and what have you . With beautiful convincing language.

QWERTY was mated a long time ago. At this point he’s either a troll or is not capable of truly understanding the meilah of chassidus in todays world. What’s outstandingly funny to me is he davens in a ChaBaD Shul which makes him complicit in the AZ he so accuses ChaBaD of committing.

I’m not even going to give you recommendations to read because you apparently have your mind made up. If you are truly a doctor remember it’s not good to embodify only netzach, hod is required. You may be bright but I’m afraid you are doing too well in life for yourself.

n0m: “Other chassidim – especially the more organized groups – know very little Chassidus. The Rebbe in an organized chassidus is more likely to push learning Halachah over Chassidus. So, any mainstream Lubavitcher transposes all their terms into Chabad. This makes perfect sense to me.”

I don’t see how that justifies Lubavichers claims that when OTHER chassidim say “the Rebbe” they mean the Lubavicher rebbe and not their own.