Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

Menachem: When Lubavitchers pray, you do not know what they are thinking (unless you are also a prophet הגם מנחם בנביאים) any more than I do. I go by what one of them said about himself and the fact that so many of them keep a picture of their Rebbe in their prayer book.

To Always
I’d just make one point. My Rov didn’t give me a heter. What he said is that there’s no problem at all because I basically just watch sports. But if you don’t have a TV keep it that way. It can be addictive. But the CR can also be addictive.

To Menachem
As I’ve clearly articulated, I will not get involved in any discussion about a dead Jew being god. I think you’re a dec
ent fellow so Hashem should have Rachmanus on you.

Regarding davening to the Lubavicher rebbe, I believe there are some who do.

And I remember an article that appeared in Beis Moshiach many years ago which said that since the rebbe can decree and Hashem will fulfill his diecree, and since if Hashem decrees the rebbe can annul that decree, therefore (and to the best of my knowledge I’m quoting the article word for word, because I found it both amazing and disgusting at the time) “Who Elokeinu? Who Avinu? Who Malkeinu? The rebbe melech hamashiach, that’s who!”

And to add a little snippet, I know someone who says (to be honest i haven’t seen him for some time so maybe he doesn’t anymore) “Baruch the Rebbe” instead of “Baruch Hashem”, and “Thank the Rebbe” instead of “Thank G-d”.

So maybe nearly all Lubavichers don’t equate their rebbe with Hashem, but there are certainly those who do.

So HaRav Moshe Feinstein accepted Rebbeinu Tam Tefillin that which were written by ChaBaD softer under the strict supervision of the Rebbe as requested.

I guess you know more than he did.

Something tells me we’re not going to see qwerty that much anymore

To ARSo

Could you tell me where the Hey Jude comment can be found? I will certainly admit my error.

To moderator

My apology. I had in mind to tell you not to edit or censor any defamatory remarks made against me, but I didn’t actually send that. My bad.

To Lostspark

I assume that your point is that Rav Moshe knew that the Rebbe declared himself god in 1962 and not only did he say nothing but he endorsed the idea when he accepted the Tefilin. Let me make this perfectly clear. Nobody that I’ve spoken to has ever heard about the 1962 sicha. And that most definitely includes the Feinsteins.I only became aware of it thanks to this thread.

Menachem, why was west coast chabad leader shlomo cunin not worried about publicizing his belief that “the rebbe runs the world,” which is on video? He’s “mainstream ” as far as i can tell. No one assembled at his speech reacted in surprise either.

I think you might be part of a small group of Lubavitch; it seems you’re unaware of what outsiders have witnessed, myself included.

@nomesorah thanks, necessity creates brevity- for me.

@5783- looks like you have a highly complex post trying to insinuate that Chassidus doesn’t consider any Jew directly from Atzmus (which I haven’t gotten a great look at yet and would probably involve sharing chapters of derech mitzvosecha which no one wants) and since I’m probably not as learned as you- I’ll let The Rebbe speak for himself.

Direct quote sefer hasichos II 5751, p605, bottom of footnotes:
) וע”ד המבואר לעיל (ס”ה) בנוגע לישראל. אלא שבישראל, הרי מציאותם גופא הוא (כביכול) העצמות, משא”כ כח העצמות בעולם (ראה לקו”ש חי״ב ע’ 75. סה”ש תשמ”ח שבהערה 56).

You’re welcome to look up these fns

5783- just reading further your previous post- firstly I’m sure The Rebbe knows Tanya better than anyone else. bring the mimale makom of his predecessors etc. So you can look up the references above to see how it
all goes.

Secondly I’m really not that learned, so I’m sorry I cannot give a complete succinct on one foot answer, but according to what I’ve learned in derech mitzvosecha- shoresh Mitzvas hatefilla- (sorry there’s49 chapters- I’m in the middle so far, but probably around 10) I remember that Hashem is one and there’s no levels, just different expressions of His Oneness- just like I might decide to give (chessed) or not to give (gevura) but ultimately it’s me deciding and doing whatever- so too everything from above Atzilus down through Atzilus etc is Hashem Himself using different forms of revelation/ expression. But it’s all Hashem which is why we say Keil referring to Hashem as He is kind- and not davening to the midda of chessed in Atzilus itself which could be ע״ז ח״ו. ע״ש

Menachem, there are many things in medrashim that we don’t understand; this is a great example. The rambam rules that if one believes that Hashem gave over command of a part of the world to a malaach, or a kochav, or anything else, he is an oved avodah zara. That’s halacha lemaysoh. Thinking that Hashem gave over fontrol of the world to a tzadik is the same thing.

As to why cunin mentioned Hashem later, i think he betrayed his true belief the first time, which you said is mainstream anyway, but there’s another, even worse possiblity, that he simply uses Hashem and the Lubavitcher rebbe interchangeably r”l.

Tzadikim daven to Hashem and their zchusim protect us; that’s not controversial at all, but it has nothing to do with being under the dominion of a person. Hashem is the only one who has dominion.

What I’d venture to say about the medrash is that tzadikim are a merkava for Hashem, as the tanya explains in perek….2? I don’t remember but it’s in the beginning. They subjugate themselves so much that they are in constant sync with the ratzon Hashem; their ratzon reflects the ratzon Hashem. So it’s Hashem making the decisions but the tzadik acts like a figurehead ruler; it looks like he’s in charge, but really he’s just being gozer what Hashem wants either way.

But that’s not something that “the world will see,” it’s an esoteric concept. When cunin said that the world will see that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world, he’s saying it’s a form of giluy Shechina r”l, the kind of thing we daven for by saying vehaya Hashem lemelech etc…we want kovod shomayim to be on full display for the world, that they should all know that Hashem runs the world.

Chabad seems to want the world to know that their rebbe runs the world; goyim should realize that Hashem exists and they should serve Him, not a person. Whatever concepts there are about how tzadikim work in shomayim has no bearing on that at all.

No one has explained the “constant glitching” of Habad theologically . Since the last rebbe took the mantle of leadership, that is . It seems like there was a constant ‘probing’ of the temperature , how far one can go , and still be accepted [by the chassidim and mainly] in the wider orthodox community. So what we ended up with was a sort of gradual ‘Climate Change’ .
slowly [and surely] the public was conditioned to accept one ‘chidddush’ , preparing the way for the acceptance of the next one.
Reminds me – lehavdil – of the gradual Judicial Revolution by the Israeli Supreme Court from 1992 onwards [, with apparent success].
If they would introduce their ‘end chidush’ at the beginning , they would be greeted by howls of outrage .
But over the years the public’s mind was conditioned , step by step.

“The Rebbe runs the world…”

I’m sure no one here would have a problem with the statement Bibi runs EY… it’s the same thing. Limited decision making (as per Hashem allots) as a messenger of Hashem.

That said, I personally don’t make such statements as i never say The Rebbe physically in this world, and I don’t see how it all “works” today (although I definitely see many requests “fast tracked” to Hashem, and the brachos brought down, as explained in derech mitzvosecha that when one knows how to present his request to Hashem it’s like asking the king in his treasury for money, as opposed to when he’s in his war room, which takes more zechusim etc, and The Rebbe is my best foot forward so to speak because were one Neshama). But Rabbi Cunin, who saw these things physically, does feel comfortable to say that, and it’s not an issue unless someone outside makes it one.

To the group
In this thread too many of the participants try to impose their opinions on others. Obviously, we have the anti TV”ers who want me to admit that I’m not a legitimate Jew because I partake of that “vice.” Then we have n0mesorah and Menachem Shmei who want me to study the sugya which “proves” that the Rebbe is god. I harbor no delusions about getting anyone to change. Rather let’s simply accept the fact that the Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is god and so there’s no point in continuing to argue.

Menachem, I have never read Berger’s book and I saw the “Who Elokeinu?” quote in Beis Moshiach itself.

The fact that Beis Moshiach had a decent enough following to allow its continued publication it its radical form shows what I was trying to prove, to wit that there are Lubavichers who believe that their rebbe is G-d and who daven to him. Just as the person who says “Barch the Rebbe” believes that his rebbe is G-d, and, I can only assume, davens to him.

I did not say that these people are the majority, and neither as far as I remember did Avirah. Just that some do, which I believe you denied. Or perhaps it was someone else who did. It makes no difference.

As to Shlomo Cunin, all the justification is unacceptable. He said that the Lubavicher rebbe runs the world, and he doesn’t. Note, he did not say “tzaddikim” he said “the rebbe”. That’s not the same as all the justifications that you and others have given.

I myself heard a few months ago when I was on a trip abroad from a Lubavicher mashpia that when the Baal Hatanya says (excuse me for not remembering the exact quote or citation) that all the shefa comes through tzaddikim (or something like that – my apologies once again) he said tzaddikim in the plural only because he was being modest, but what he actually meant was that it all comes through him alone. And that therefore “in our generation” it’s only via the rebbe.

Cs, a better comparison would be saying that golda meir runs israel from the grave; saying Netanyahu runs israel or that biden runs rhe US is speaking of the derech hateva state of things, same as saying a father is head of a household…. Hashem is the true source, but it looks like these people are in charge.

But nothing looks as though the Lubavitcher rebbe is in charge of the world, and to think so would be to say that Hashem put him in charge, which is assur al pi halacha.

And if cunin meant something like the above explanation i gave, or what you’re saying, why would the whole world have to know that? Doesn’t cunin and chabad prefer that the whole world know that Hashem exists and runs the world? Isn’t that our job?

Or is your job to spread awareness of the Lubavitcher rebbe and his vision?

Sounds more like the latter.

I have to admit that qwerty that was a good one.

@arso
Thanks .
Btw. When you think about it – the ‘double language’ employed [numerous times] when discussing the Shver [Frierdiker Rebbe] and their present Rebbe, serves the same purpose .
A hunch only , have no proof for it .
But there is a clear pattern .

I don’t know where it is written, but it is said that there are 36 Tzaddikim in each generation. There is also the idea that צדיק גוזר והקב” ה מקיים. So why should we believe that there is only one צדיק in each generation, and he (or she?) must be none other than the current Lubavitcher Rebbe? For example, why did the חפץ חיים not qualify?

Jude- there were many Tzaddikim in pre war Europe outside of lubavitch. Lubavitch doesn’t believe in excluding others from being leaders and even Tzaddikim in klal Yisrael. The Rebbe met with, and highly respected, many admurim/ Sephardic chief rabbi/ etc etc titles.

Just happens to be that I don’t hear of any “Tzaddikim of Tanya” Today outside of the Rebbe, who by the way saw yidden who came to him from all streams of Yiddishkeit- not just lubavitch in case you were wondering

(Just cuz you’re gonna ask- yea there is only one nossi hador- nossi as in Neshama klalis of the gen, sorry it’s not popular… every stream in Yiddishkeit has something special and unique they contribute)

For thousands of years – since matan torah – we had one thing and one thing only- in our public domain. Nigleh . Even though Nistar is an integral part of the torah , it was not in the public domain . this started to change from the time of the publication of the Zohar , the earlier Mekubalim, the Ari and his disciples , but was mainly popularised since the advent of the Baal Shem and his talmidim .Now i want to posit a theory which may get some of you up in arms , but I think may be correct.
The reason why the Baal Shem [and disciples] popularised it ,was to rejuvenate the Avodat HaShem of its learners , to bring a fire , a life into them . Which was lacking previously . In which they succeeded.
So the purpose of that limud was not as a kiyum of mitsvat talmud torah and yediat hatorah, rather for its EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS
But not in order that they should become experts in the ‘Dak al Dak understanding’ of Nistar in the real , true and accurate sense , like klal yisrael was in limud nigleh for all the centuries since matan torah.
Habad was the only one which took it a step further . The early habad Rebeim advocated for their followers to delve into Nistar as close as possible to the real ‘dak al dak understanding ‘.
But that was , in my humble opinion at least, also only in order to further their Avodat Hashem .FOR ITS EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS, For exactly the same reason as the other talmidei baal shem .
What followed, when the generations passed, was , the emergence of an ‘illusion’ in habad that they do have a true and accurate dak al dak understanding of nistar , of its terminology , of what its words really mean , in the EXACT SAME WAY klal yisrael did for the last 3333 years in nigleh. Nigleh ,which was not only learned for its results on the learner , but for a clear absolute understanding of the torah
Therefore , considering this background , it is much easier in habad to use all types of nistar for ‘proofs’ for any outlandish new theory one would want to advance , convinced as they are that they are true conveyors of the accurate understanding of nistar .
They [and we] should remember that the true purpose of its limud was meant FOR THE EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS , not for a true and foolproof accuracy, which can afterwards be used to try and be medame milsa lemilsa , etc. because the true and accurate understanding remains elusive even if explained and packaged in the nicest and most appealing wrapping paper .
I think that this is a fault line between habad and the rest of klal yisrael.
Not the only one . One of the fault lines.

Qwerty is behind the times. Not the office, ohel

Hello ….

I think both sides are losing the debate here. Just by making such issues the focus of your relationship to Hashem or by trying to bring up every little idiocy your slightly meshugene neighbor have done in his life. Can we all just get along?