Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

To mdd1

N0mesorah doesn’t believe that the Rebbe is G-d. He’s a contrarian and so he says anything to stir controversy. He’s so lost he probably doesn’t even know what he believes. On the other hand Lubavichers do believe that the Rebbe is G-d clothed in human form whatever that means. A Lubavicher once explained it to me as follows:Moshe Rabbeinu was equal to all the Jews of his time.The Rebbe was the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation and so he was equal to all the Jews who ever lived and this made him G-d. And he was serious. And Rabbi Moshe Shmei knows that what I’m saying is true. Checkmate.

To Sechel. There is absolutely no place in Yiddishkeit to say the Hashem is מלובש בגוף it’s one of the י״ג אני מאמין. If it appears to you that it has a place in קבלה then that’s exactly why regular people shouldn’t be learning קבלה. Obviously קבלה and חסידות don’t contradict עיקרי אמונה and if it appears that it does then obviously you didn’t understand it properly. Let me quote to you from חב״ד ספרים which discuss this topic תניא שער היחוד דף פ״ג.l לית מאן דתפיסא ביה אע״ג דאיהו ממכ״ע אינו כנשמת האדם תוך גופו שהיא נתפסת תוך גופו משא״כ הקב״ה שאינו נתפס כלל תוך העולמות Now let me quote from דרך מצבותיך from the צ״צ דף נ״ו. וז״ל ״כי הנה אור הוא בחי׳ גילוי הא״ס ממש אלא שגילוי זה הוא רק כמו זיו השמש לגבי השמש שאין שום התפעלות ושינוי במהות השמש מהתפשטות הזיו ואינו כמשל התפשטות חיות הנפש בגוף שהנפש מתפעלת מהתפשטות זו לפי שמתלבשת ומתאחדת עם הגוף משא״כ הזיו המאיר מהשמש שאין השמש עצמה מתלבשת כלל אלא שזיוה זורח על הארץ וכמו כן למעלה אין שום התפעלות ושינוי כלל במהו״ע ית׳. So we see clearly that this has no place in קבלה or חסידות l אדרבה in ספרי חב״ד it says בפירוש that you can’t say that.

Dear Coffee,

Qwerty didn’t post that Schron goes to a Pesach Hotel. Just about making money. Which didn’t make sense to me.

To the group
I think that n0mesorah is right that this thread, which has been quite extraordinary has run it’s course and so it would seem that closing remarks are called for. On the Chabad side, Sechel83 articulated their view. The Rebbe, in 1962, declared that he is G-d clothed in human form. Neither Rav Moshe nor any of the other Gedolim protested and therefore we can conclude that they all agreed that the Rebbe was god. Everything was fine until that Berger fellow came along. On the anti Chabad side well nothing need be said.

Dear Mdd,

I don’t see anybody here claiming that ‘a human is god’. If you are not going to try to understand exactly what someone is trying to say, than minus is never a problem to begin with. If you never listen to other people, what is the threat of them saying whatever kefira they want?

sechel: “so from 1962 (when it was printed) no one had an issue till some am haaratzim that don’t know the above seforim saw the sicha and think it’s a”z ch”v”

During the bitter Israeli election of 1989 between Agudah and Degel, the latter published quite a lot against Lubavich, as, at the time, that was the main crux of the disagreement between the two parties. Part of what they published – and I have copies, and have checked both sources. – the atzmus melubash beguf sicha, and the same sicha printed in a later volume, with the offensive passage redacted.

If there’s nothing wrong with it, why was it redacted and never reprinted in its original form?

sechel: “He never said you can pray to the Rebbe”

Please quote for all of us the passage where he said the statement that we are objecting to. You will find that he says EXPLICITLY that davening to a tzaddik is not a problem because he is atzmus melubash beguf, so he is a memutza hamechaber, not a memutza hamafsik. I may have the quote incorrect, but that is defnitiely the gist of what he said.

Ill try to make a summary of the past 14 pages:
Disclaimer im just doing this for fun, im not trying to convince anyone, and i think about 99% of rabbonim today consider 99% of chabad totally frum yiden.
Basically some claim its a christian idea to beleive moshiach can come from the dead, the ramban writes about this, and others answered its a gemara, abarbanel, sdai chedem etc, so at most its a machlokes
Some argued that a lot of chabad prays to the rebbe and think he’s g-d, and others simply say its hallucination
Some referred to a sicha where they claim the rebbe says that the previous rebbe was g-d and therefore one can pray to him
Others answered that they simply twisted the words, the rebbe is talking about asking for brachos and tikunim (which when the rebbe said this sicha in 1950, it was not as accepted as now to ask for brachos from a tzadik, some considered this a ממוצע), and the rebbe says that all jews are one with g-d (zahar) and also chassidim and the rebbe are one thing, so it comes out there is no ממוצע because its atzmus umehus how he enclothed himself in a body and brings a zohar and yerushalmi to compare it to, so 1) its not even clear to me that the body the rebbe is referring to is the previous rebbe, in fact the rebbe was speaking after the frierdiker rebbe passed away 2) the rebbe clearly compares it too a zohar and yerushalmi and clearly wants it to be understood the same as you would understand those sources. (the sicha is printed in likutai sichos vol 2 page 509 and on)
They also brought many other sources niglah and kabala that say this same idea,
The anti chabad continued to argue that the niglah and kabbalah seforim dont mean it literally but the rebbe meant it literally, and for that reason one should not learn kabala.
Chabad answered: well first why do you assume the rebbe meant it different then all the other seforim? 2) one of the things chassidus came to do was to explain kabala so everyone can learn it (including this idea is explained at length in many places in chassidus), and its not only kabbalah, its also niglah as mentioned, in fast one reading chumash sees the idea of a body terms for hashem which you end up with the same issue to explain. 3) if so, how come almost all the gedolim didn’t talk out against it, the sicha was said in 1950, printed in 1962, and it took decades for (all the big gedolim to pass away) someone (a professor) to come out against it (he did get some endorsement from a few real misnagdishe rabbanim)
The anti chabad say, that none of the gedolim ever heard of this sicha, if they would have, they would have definitely came out against the rebbe. And really many gedolim even who endorsed the rebbe only did it to be more accepted, they wrote things they didn’t mean, but told one person what they really held.
chabad answered: i see how much you hold of your gedolim, such a big problem happening in the world that chabad is openly serving a”z ch”v and bringing more and more jews to do so, and none of the gedolim cared, spoke up? Look in gemerah shabbos about the churban that the gedolim were punished for not speaking up. It also talks there about chanifa, how bad it is, so i would make a machaa for accusing reb moshe of that and also writing sheker.
Sorry if i missed any important issues, i didn’t have so much time to look thru everything, but i think i covered the main points.
I will add that i myself IF i would see anyone referring to the rebbe as g-d or praying to him, i would consider him to be serving a”z, but i to date (living in chabad communities all my life, learning in 770 for yrs, going to many many shluchim) never heard of this idea till i heard it from litvaks

hello ?

“Dear Coffee,

Qwerty didn’t post that Schron goes to a Pesach Hotel. Just about making money. Which didn’t make sense to me.“

Thanks so in essence QWERTY has been checkmated he hasn’t found a yeshivish person with my criteria that watches tv

@nomesorah
Seems like there was an agenda .
Used to defend habad for many years , but made a u turn , in face of the developments over the years .
Still defend habad for all their qualities.
But they are definitely misguided .

To Coffee addict

Congratulations you’ve beaten me. You can tell all your Yeshivish friends that the enemy has been defeated. Had you been paying attention to the discussion the question was whether it’s prmissible to watch TV or not. As I stated the other day, my Rov told me it’s allowed. So I win and it’s checkmate. I don’t care what Yeshivish people do because I don’t generally associate with them.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

Before we began this thread I had no idea that the idea of the Rebbe as god clothed in human form came from the Rebbe himself. All I knew about this is that Rabbi Dr. Berger said that eight Rabbis from Oholei Torah said this. The point is that you can’t accuse me of lying since it was Sechel83 who introduced the Sicha. I have never looked at any of the Rebbe’s Sichos and I plan to keep it that way. Sechel83 said that the Rebbe called himself god clothed in human form. The anti Chabad side, not just me, called this Avoda Zarah. Sechel83 realized that heade a mistake and denied saying this. That’s the truth edited

To the group
So now we have a Machlokes of Chabad Poskim, According to Sechel83 no Lubavicher refers to the Rebbe as god. While according to Rabbi Menachem Shmei every Lubavicher refers to the Rebbe as god because the Rebbe called himself god.

n0m: “If you never listen to other people, what is the threat of them saying whatever kefira they want?”

Technicallly there can still be a problem if the follower of a min try to spread his word. Even if what they’re spreaxing is not necessarily minnus of its own accord, they are still trying to get people attached to the min himself.

Btw the above is just a point in regards to what you said in general terms. I was not davka relating it to Lubavich and atzmus melubash in a guf.

Qwerty,

Congratulations on being MO now that explains a lot!

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

You make a good point, to wit, how can Rabbi Schachter know to whom Lubavichers daven? The answer is simple. Because of his Talmudic genius, he has Ruach Hakodesh and Malachim revealed this information to him. Similarly, you can ask how Rav Shach knew what was going on in Brooklyn. So we know that he was the Godol Hador which means he was the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador and so he had the same level of Nevuah as Moshe and this allowed him to see what the Rebbe was doing.If you think that’s ridiculous then understand what Jews think when Lubavichers claim that the Rebbe is god. Checkmate.

edited

Qwerty,

You outing yourself as MO shows your true colors, anyone that’s to the right out you is a bigot but hey you’re perfect!

I’ve posted before that you probably find going mixed swimming is fine (which I see I’m right on)

You’re not that much different than the tzeddukim or karaim because you don’t follow the sixth chelek of shulchan aruch which is use your common sense, but I do commend you “asking your Rabbi” (just btw it’s no different than a Lubavitcher asking his rebbe is the Rebbe is moshiach or sleeping in a sukkah)

I’m happy you feel flattered that I “imitated” you just to push your buttons you should feel that way when other people make fun of you too

To Coffee Addict

I hope Moshiach turns out to be MO because a bigot like you won’t accept him and you’ll miss out on all the enjoyment of Geulah. As I’ve stated I am Lower East Side Orthodox which means I follow the Feinstein Mehalech. Rav Moshe made a Shidduch for his daughter with a YU product. I assume you think Rav Moshe was a Karaite who endorsed mixed swimming.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Boy do I get to you. Checkmate. Use