Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

“I’m not impressed with some juvenile attempt to play Rabbi. Show me a written Psak from a university accepted Posek“

Do rabbanim have to give pesakim for things that are an issue in the Torah

I didn’t know I was playing “rabbi” I thought it was pashut, I guess some things aren’t (like do rabbanim have to pasken on mixed swimming?)

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

You answered my challenge very well. Chabad is lucky to have such a bright fellow as its representative and I’m not saying this “Altz Chanifah” which I despise almost as much as lying. I think it’s pretty clear that you do have Smicha. I would ask the following, “Do you agree that it’s wrong to plaster the city with signs promoting the Rebbe as Moshiach?”

To Coffee Addict

“Do Rabbanim have to give Pesakim for things that are an issue in the Torah?”
I’m reasonably certain that there’s no Posuk in the Torah stating, “Thou shalt not watch TV.” Rabbi Miller argued that TV qualifies as Sefarim Chitzonim and therefore anyone watching TV has no Cheilek in Olam Habo. I shared this with my Rov who is a Posek(unlike Rabbi Miller) and he laughed off what Rabbi Miller said. As for those posters who are inventing their own Doraysos let’s add that it’s a form of suicide because it’s Bitul Zman and killing time is tantamount to killing oneself. If you like that, then going to a restaurant is also suicide. The point is that Rabbonim most definitely Pasken when a new issue arises. I am not advocating that people watch TV. And I’m not arguing that most Rabbonim are against the practice. I’m simply questioning if it’s actually prohibited or if it’s a odds with the Chareidi norm. As you can see I don’t identify with Chareidim. You can see my earlier posting today on the subject. Halacha is not in the realm of the masses.

Qwert, a psak din was quoted here from basically every gadol in America. Look at it.

There’s also a sefer which gets into more halachik detail about television, the halachos of al tashkon, lo sasuru, putting one’s self in a nisayon, yisrael al tishmach el gil haamin, al tifnu, which sholulchan aruch says applies to novels withoit spiritual benefit(shu”a OC 307:17) there is a teshuva from the debretziner about it too, and there are common shailos about the permissibility of children to break their parents TV sets – the tzelemer rov provided them with bricks and rab belsky told me that this is why there never was a TV problem in Williamsburg.

Just think; do you want the worldview of a goy or frei jew drummed into your head as you enjoy the story snd are not on your guard to protect yourself from influence? Tv shows always have innuendos, nivul peh, embarrassing other characters, promoting bad middos even when they think they’re teaching good ones… it’s value systems which harm our hashkofos at every turn. Mishlei says “of all things, guard your mind, for from it comes life”

“I’m reasonably certain that there’s no Posuk in the Torah stating, “Thou shalt not watch TV.”“

There’s no pasuk that says you can’t go mixed swimming either

There are rabbanim that have assured internet, what makes it different than tv where they they would say that tv is muttar but internet is assur?

What about using this forum on internet, pretty sure all gedolim came out against using internet unless litzorech parnasa, besides for chabad

“If watching TV is equal to eating in Burger King why don’t the Gedolim ban Pesach vacations? All the 5 star hotels have TV’s in every room.“

People that go to Pesach hotels don’t really care what the gedolim think

To Coffee addict

I thought you’d say that. Many yeshivish people, meaning the ones with money, attend these and other such programs, but the Gedolim generally don’t make edicts that the Machers won’t accept. Let’s take a look at some recent history. About 20 years ago the Gedolim tried to curb big weddings. The Gvirim put the Kibosh on that idea and it was quickly dismissed. The big boys went along with the TV ban, and that’s why it took effect, but had they protested it would have been abandoned. I assume, but I’m not sure, that the MO world never accepted the TV Takanah although their Rabbanim do adhere to it. This is my perception. If I’m wrong please set me straight. I wasn’t able to meet my Rov tonight to speak to him but I should have an answer tomorrow.

To mdd1

You have a tendency to get into 1 on 1’s with your disputants. Please keep in mind that everyone in the group wants to understand the subject so we can weigh in. I, for one, had no idea what you were talking about. All I could tell is that you were attacking Avira.

To sechel83

There has never been a question about the Rebbe’s genius, so I have no problem believing that he knew Kol Hatorah Kula by heart(I’m not saying that he did, but I wouldn’t argue against it.) The issue is how Lubavichers came to the conclusion that the Rebbe is “G-d clothed in human form.” It’s because of statements like the one you quoted. I know that Rabbi Menachem Shmei will try to defend it, but there is no defense for promoting outright Avoda Zarah.

Oh and I am using the term “frum baal habas liberally as in that is what he view himself as

@Qwerty. To reemphasize my question, some claim that there is an issue ch”v with the rebbe’s statement, it was already mentioned that the same statement exists in Gemara, Zohar, rishonim, kabala, kedushas Levi etc.
Some still claim there is a difference,
So my question is that if it’s a”z why were all the gedolim of the privious generation quiet. I would assume reb Moshe would speak out if he thought it was an issue, but we see that he kept encouraging the rebbe’s mivtzoim etc.

Mdd, it might be predictable, but it’s what the vast majority of gedolim will tell you if you ask the shailoh. You’re quoting a lot of 2nd hand information; i advise you to ask gedolei yisroel if the halacha lemaysoh follows the chazon ish. I highly doubt that rav elyashiv told someone to celebrate a mumars death, but if he did, what was the case? Was he perhaps a former rosh kolel who went off the derech and tried to convince others to do so?(it’s happened…) Or maybe a guy in a black hat who believes in transing young people, like a former kiruv rabbi turned walking abomination, who lures young people in BMG?

There are people who i think even the chazon ish would agree are in that category. I’d celebrate if either of the above g’pagered.

I don’t remember tosfos on the gemara; will check bl”n.

To the group

The other day I asked Rabbi Menachem Shmei a seemingly innocuous question, “What’s your opinion of the flyers being posted throughout the city which declare that the Rebbe is Moshiach?” Rabbi Shmei ignored the question and I’ll offer an explanation for his inaction. The fellow responsible for these flyers is a twenty year old kid who knows nothing about Nigleh or Nistar but he is certain that the Rebbe is Moshiach. And why does he believe this? Because it’s been drummed into his head since he started breathing. And this is why every Lubavicher believes he’s Moshiach, despite the fact that this proposal directly contradicts the Rambam.

To Sechel83

You’re writing isn’t clear, but I think you’re saying the following, “The Rebbe stated that he was G-d clothed in human form(or something equivalent) and Rav Moshe endorsed this.” If I understand you correctly then you are completely out of your mind. As I’ve told the group I’m an East Sider who has been close to the Feinsteins for 60 years. They are the most grounded, logical people anyone could imagine. If Rav Moshe would have heard such heresy, he would have immediately ruled that no lUbavicher can be included in a Minyan. This is way beyond even my conception of Chabad.

To mdd1

The quote you intended was, “Denial is not a river in Egypt.” I don’t understand how you can have the nerve to call out Avira when you lack the intellectual honesty to admit that you mistakenly criticized me. Clearly, you can’t accept Mussar so you prove that Rabbi’s point that people shouldn’t be chastised.

To the group

As promised I spoke to someone who is completely reliable and he told me that watching TV is no worse than any other activity in which your eyes might be exposed to inappropriate material. I told him that basically I restricted my watching to sports and he said it’s OK. Obviously, I can’t reveal his name but he is an enormous Talmid Chacham. For the sake of honesty I will admit that the other side definitely has upon whom to rely. Yes the Gedolim like Rav Moshe and many others were totally against it,(unlike mdd1 I admit that I was wrong for implying that this was solely a Rabbi Miller crusade) but the person I asked is an unimpeachable source. Bottom line, you guys should continue to abstain, but I’ll continue to ask in accord with my Rabbonim who perhaps, are more Meikel.

Whose ruby shron? (I seriously never heard of him)

And even still, you’re bringing one person (or a handful) seriously?

@arsa. Great point, but think more a second, the teams job was to figure the mekoros for everything the Rebbe said, so what does that mean?
You think the Rebbe read out of a toras Menachem?

Dear Qwerty,

“..came to the conclusion that the Rebbe is “G-d clothed in human form.” ”

There is an esoteric debate about the what is goodness/righteousness in this world. The main delineator is can we accept the tzaddik as something similar to the phrase you put in quotes. The mainstream view of today’s (And the last 200+ years.) kabbalistic thinkers is in the positive. We can discuss if Chabad should be promoting kabbalistic concepts to the laity. But they are not far out, off the wall, rejected concepts. If you want to understand why it’s okay, you would have to study these topics yourself.

Dear Avira,

Rav Kook was as great as they come. The gedolim of his days considered him on par with the gedolim of a hundred years before. Some try to justify that they are just against his ‘theories’ or ‘policies’. He didn’t have anything like that. Rav Kook doesn’t ever write about how do this or approach that. His whole being was to do what was right in the moment. He exuded Torah even in the most Anti Torah settings. Everything he ever thought about in his life, was nullified to the Torah within him. There is a some sichas chullin in his writings. For those that learn his Torah on everything else, it is not Bittul Torah to read his poems and views of history.

The objections that Rav Kook encountered between the wars, was about how to deal with the issues of the day. The leaders believed Rav Kook was too trusting of the secular Jews to keep their agreements. The Chareidim wanted to hold the line as much as they could and Rav Kook didn’t seem to care for that. In hindsight, the Chareidi leaders never had a chance to hold that line for long.

But to personally attack Rav Kook? To doubt his stature? The Rabbanim of Yerushalayim put ayidden in cherem for that. In the Lita a Rav spoke out against Rav Kook and some of the Gedolim refused to speak with that rav again.

I know all the fables you know and almost all of them are not at all true.

Nomesorah, enough of your trying to justify anything and everything! To say that some human is G-d clothed in human form is pure apikorsus, Christianity! All of this is based on misunderstanding statements in sifrei Kabbolah. Started with Yoshke and his talmidim. Enough is enough!

@qwerty613, that’s exactly my point, that reb Moshe and all the rest of the gedolim didn’t have an issue with the statement because they knew Gemara , Zohar etc, so from 1962 (when it was printed) no one had an issue till some am haaratzim that don’t know the above seforim saw the sicha and think it’s a”z ch”v

@qwerty if you know what rav Moshe would say, why don’t you take his place as a gadol hador. You’re trying to say that rav Moshe being the “unquestioned gadol hador” till he passed away would let such a big movement as chabad start serving a”z and be mikarev thousands and thousands of Jews to this beleife, and he was afraid to speak up? He didn’t know of the sicha? He definitely knew about it, there were misnagdim then also who spoke about it and definitely people brought it to him. And if not well being the gadol hador, it’s definitely his achrayos to know what’s going on in chabad. So my conclusion is that he knew and had no issue (cuz as the Rebbe brings it’s a clear yerushalmi and a Zohar) and later on people like berger who don’t know yerushalmi and Zohar decided it’s kefira. Btw even today who even accepts the anti chabad movement, seems like it’s only some talmidim of rav shach, and even those, it doesn’t seem like they really care because if they thought chabad was a”z, they have a mitzvah to uproot it, I think it’s just politics.

Nomesorah,

“I don’t get it. The story of Ruby Schron is that he returned money that he was allowed to keep. You didn’t mean that yeshivishe people don’t have money. Just that it is not a life goal to make endless money.”

I’m not following

I made a point that yeshivish people don’t go to Pesach hotels where frum Baal habatim do so QWERTY brought in this guy ruby schron so does he go to Pesach hotels if he does and he’s yeshivish he’s a minority, if he doesn’t what’s the point to bring him in the conversation

Btw I see he’s in his 80s so wouldn’t be surprised that he doesn’t watch tv

Dear Mdd,

Please make sense.

You seem to have no background in Christian Theology.

‘Clothes’ in the New Testament is something a god does. It has no parallel in Jewish Mysticism.

Yoshke and his followers had zero access to our sifrei kabbalah.

This concept is not controversial when it is correctly understood. There are whole seforim that explain this.

Chassidus was revealed and it can’t just be removed from our collective minds. The same is true for the teachings of the Arizal.

@mdd1 you agree it’s a misunderstanding in sifrai kabala, ao the question is why you assume chabad or the Rebbe ch”v had this misunderstanding, it’s much more rational to say Dr berger had this misunderstanding or you have this misunderstanding then to say the Rebbe or chabad does.

To Sechel83

While some or all of the participants aren’t members of the qwerty 613 fan club no one has questioned my writing ability. This said I think my last post was crystal clear. If the Lubavicher Rebbe actually stated, as you claim, that he is G-d clothed in human form then he is a self made Avoda Zarah. Moreover I will guarantee that Rav Moshe never heard of any such pronouncement or he would have put him in Cherem and ruled that Lubavichers can not be included in a minyan etc. To make it clearer I don’t believe the Rebbe ever said this and if he did Rav Moshe never heard it. Don’t you dare suggest that Rav Moshe would allow such heresy and idolatry.