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qwerty: My plumber got smicha too. Does that mean I need to say “Rabbi Cohen, please unstuff my toilet”?
To Avira
I’m shocked by your statement. I am by no means a follower of Rabbi Kahane but he died Al Kiddush Hashem and you have the temerity to throw dirt on his grave. Now you and n0mesorah both have some serious Tshuvah to do. The good news is that we’re almost in Elul so it’s perfect timing.
To ujm
If your plumber has Smicha then yes, of course, you must address him as Rabbi unless he tells you that he’s Mochel on his Kovod. Don’t you Lubavichers know anything about Halacha?To Menachem Shmei
“The title for someone killed Al Kiddush Hashem is HY”D as I wrote not rabbi” So you would refer to R Elchonon Wasserman ZTL as HY’D without the honorific because the Nazis killed him? Look you made a mistake. It’s not the end of the world. But the problem is that your Gaavah won’t allow you to admit it. By the way you also owe me an apology for calling me arrogant and ignorant. And what do you think about the “FACT” that the Feinsteins, as currently constituted, don’t like Chabad? Curious to see how you’ll try to squirm out of that one.
I don’t believe he was killed al kiddush Hashem. He wasn’t killed because he was jewish OR because of mitzvos. He was killed because of his political plans to expel millions of arabs from their jomes. He knew exactly the ire and violence that would come in its wake, and took on the mantle of warrior. He was fighting a nationalistic war, not a religious one. His killing was one militant killing another who was threatening his people’s right to live in their homes.
Why is that dying al kidush Hashem? It’s more like dying al kiddush ha-nationalism.
Nom, kahane was off because he advocated a nationalistic tough jew, never again mindset which gedolim called kefirah, including the chazon ish. He believed the answer to antisemitism is violence and even terrorism. The state department listed his organization as a terrorist entity for a reason. Granted he didn’t go after civilians, but he didn’t care much about what his actions caused.
He supported an ideology “they must go” which is the definition of ethnic cleansing, which would have made israel not only a pariah, but the subject of perhaps an international invasion from western countries who care about civil rights – including the US.
Not to mention how many jews would be killed if forcible expulsions of millions of arabs took place.
He was essentially a rodef in that regard.
Nothing to do with what my rebbeim said. Actually, one of the people i consider to be my rebbe, rav avigdor milller, reminded people that meir kahana was a shomer torah umitzvos, though he argued sharply against his positions. I don’t know if rav miller knew the full extent of what kahanist ideology would bring to the jewish people. We literally could have had another Holocaust if we followed him.
To Avira
It’s interesting that you consider Rabbi Miller an important influence. He was a Chabad lover. How do you reconcile that fact with your view?To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
By all means I’ll call you Rabbi. Why not? If you’re lying then you’ll have something else to explain to Hashem beside the fact that you insulted me and refused to apologize.
To Avira
So it seems that you consider yourself qualified to decide which Jews who were murdered, were killed Al Kiddush Hashem and which were not. Do you agree that all 6,000,000 million Jews who were slaughtered, died Al Kiddush Hashem or was it only the Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos? I spoke to Poskim on this question when the Jews in Pittsburgh were killed and I was told unequivocally that any Jew who is killed because he’s identified as a Jew dies Al Kiddush Hashem and is guaranteed an immediate ticket to Gan Eden. As an interesting aside, that Posek told me that Rabbi Miller wouldn’t agree with this Psak. I understand that you’re a follower of Rabbi Miller but he was not a Posek and he was not a Godol, but he was definitely a great man and a great Marbitz Torah. His opinions, however, don’t stand up against the consensus of Poskim.
First of all, ones opinion about Lubavitch isn’t s litmus test of their credentials as a gadol, because it’s very likely that many gedolim simply did not know what was going on in Lubavitch; they held of what they thought Lubavitch was. This happens sometimes.
Secondly, rav miller stopped mentioning the Lubavitcher rebbe as a gadol in his later years, precisely for this reason – more information about neo chabad became known. Rav pam was the same way; for years he said thet rav shach was talking to bnei eretz yisroel and that we shouldn’t be part of it, but in his later years was chozer.
It’s not that they did teshuva, it’s that more information became available and known. This was before the internet; information traveled slowly. The truth about rabbi kook also didn’t come out for decades, with many gedolim defending him simply because they did not know the extent of his nationalistic heretical statements and ideas, such as the frei jews having higher neshomos than the frum, because they build up the land etc..
Qwerty, their death provides a degree of kaporah, not necessarily a direct ticket to Gan Eiden (according to Darkei Moshe, the Ramo).
Avirah, there was one Chassidishe Rebbe (not a contemporary one) who held that Zimri was right in what he did with Kozbi.qwerty: 1) Which grandson? Tendler, who was kicked out of the RCA? Regardless, no grandson speaks for their grandfather, especially posthumously
2) a) Rav Miller zt’l certainly was a Godol and b) no other Gedolim disagreed with Rav Miller. Indeed, the Gedolei Yisroel were opposed to Mr. Kahane and his militancy.
3) None of the Gedolim have described Pittsburgh as Al Kiddush Hashem.
Avira > This was before the internet; information traveled slowly.
This is questionable. You are suggesting that gedolim were making judgments about major current movements lead by other gedolim without investigating the matter properly? We had a question whether one should trust a gadol in stock picking, but surely evaluating hashkofos _is_ what a Rav is a boke in!
ujm > My plumber got smicha too. Does that mean I need to say “Rabbi
!? Look up gemora and tell me whether tannaim and amoraim who were in various professions were denied their titles?! In some cases, I see questionable characters without smicha usually because they are doing something not kosher in their activities (whether Aher or those who are not honest)
ujm, and on a positive side, you are engaged in a bunch of mitzvos while employing your plumber – chesed, tzedoka, kavod/love of talmidei chachamim. I hope you pay extra, but not so much that he notices that this is tzedoka. Maybe throw napkins into the bowl on purpose to increase his income.
the difference between chabad’s view on chabad and the rebbe, and the misnagdim is this:
chabad: look at over 200 volumes of the rebbes torah, videos, audio, first hand stories of open ruach hakodesh and miracles (even many stories you can see the actual miracle or ruach hakodesh on video), we have nothing to hide, if you dont see the gadlus, well you must be beyond stupid.
misnaged: my freind in 9th grade told me that rav .. said this, rav .. said this. even though rav moshe and every other litvishe gadolim respected chabad (as documented) but that was before…, i heard that he didn’t really mean it, my rebbi told me that …, professor berger (i guess the latest gadol) wrote … etc…
vda”l
pretty crazy how people can deny such obvious facts.
this is what it says in ikvosa dimshichaQwert, i agree that most hold that if a jew is killed because they’re a jew then they’re considered to have been killed al kiddush Hashem. Rav Miller didn’t dispute that in itself, but rather said that they don’t get rewarded for it “besides suffering a little less in gehinnom” if they were apikorsim/frei b’mayzid, even in the Holocaust. This was a controversial opinion.
But this has no bearing on meir kahana. He wasn’t killed because he was a Jew. He was killed because he declared war on the Arabs. They killed him because he was a threat to them. Did they hate jews? Most likely, yes. But the assassination was not due to him being jewish or even due to representing with or being associated with the so called jewish state. It was because he wanted to expel all arabs from israel, by force if necessary.
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Your last posting is absolutely correct. Maybe there is some hope for you. I’d like to believe that there are Lubavichers who will be able to adapt when the truth emerges that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach.
Sechel, writing a lot does not make one bigger or smaller. There were minor poskim who wrote long volumes of teshuvos, and there was the bais halevi, who wrote relatively few teshuvos, yet his words are חוצבים להבות אש. Rav nossom adler, one of the gedolei olam and the chasam sofers rebbe, wrote nothing. Most of the geonim wrote nothing too.
Sometimes writing longer seforim is evident of the opposite of gadlus.
So I’m not impressed with “kamus,” im concerned with eichus.
And i can’t believe someone here said that rav miller wasn’t a gadol… He was one of the biggest bekiim in shas in his time
sechel, I am telling you that R Salanter and R Hirsh did open miracles (and they did), are you going to read all volumes of their writings or will you say – who are these people?
I want to explain why the Lubavitcher can’t be moshiach and to answer some questions Lubavitchers asked earlier. someone asked what’s the problem to say he’s moshiach if in the גמ׳ we find that תלמידים darshined פסוקים about משיח to be talking about their rebbes The difference is that they Said that their rebbe was the משיח שבדור that if the דור would be ראוי then their rebbe will become משיח Chabad however says their “rebbe” is already בחזקת מלך המשיח and that’s אפיקרסות because he doesn’t have the סימנים of משיח as brought down in the rambam. Another thing is that even someone who was בחזקת משיח the רמב״ם says that if he fails at one point his חזקה is בטול ומבוטל and we know for certain that he’s not משיח. the “rebbe” failed obviously to bring the גאולה because he is dead if that doesn’t count for ״לא הצליח״ then what does. And the רמב״ן also said in his ויכוחים that you can’t say משיח came and then died. This that their is a גמ׳ that says משיח could come from the dead and it could be דניאל is not a סתירה ח״ו because it’s not talking about a “second coming” rather a ״first coming״ and it’s not saying that דניאל is בחזקת משיח and will come back to finish the job it’s just Saying that all tough he doesn’t fit the סימנים for משיח and he wasn’t yet crowned and as of now he is not משיח but if the דור is ראוי he is one of the potential people who could become משיח
To Avira
Rabbi Miller said he wasn’t a Gadol and I agree with him. Look it’s really a meaningless argument. I don’t think that there is a definable way of judging who is and who isn’t a Godol. As I see it, it’s completely subjective. I would appreciate it if someone in the thread would explain how one attains the status of a Godol BYisrael. By the way, if you want to call Rabbi Miller a Gadol that’s certainly your right, but my Rabbonim do not think of him that way.
It is reported that the Rebbe made predictions and performed miracles. Rambam writes (Yesodei hatorah 8) that signs are irrelevant, and Israel did not believe in Moses our Rabbi as a result of the signs that he performed. This Sabbath we will read in Deuteronomy 13,2: If there arise among thee a prophet … and he gives thee a sign or a wonder. And the sign or wonder comes about saying ‘let us go after other gods ….’. Do not listen to that prophet. So if a Rebbe lets his followers believe that he is a god, then they need to find another Rebbe.
Qwert, there are people who are put off by rav millers hashkofos. So maybe they don’t want to consider him a gadol byisroel. But every gadol I’ve known has considered him such. No, he was not in the same league as gedolei olam like rav Moshe, rav aharon, the chazon ishz etc…but in America he was one of the gedolim on lar with rav shmuel birnbaum, rav pam, etc…
Most gedolim say that they’re not gedolim. Rav belsky heard from rav chaim kanievsky that he in all earnest was wondering “what’s this niggun “yomim al yemei melech tosif” that i keep hearing people sing… don’t people sing any other niggunin?” It didn’t dawn on him that people would be singing that for him.
I agree there’s little to gain in discussing who was a gadol and who might not have been, except there are cases where it’s important, such as discouraging others from being involved in people which can lead one on a path away from mesorah.
edited. Not sure you have credentials for listing names.
Just for the record, i hope in shomayim they pasken that everyone killed during the Holocaust and in thr temple shooting go straight to olam haba. Who would prefer to deny them such? Rav Miller held not like that, not because he didn’t want them to go to olam haba, but because that was his daas Torah opinion, and he is obligated to teach Torah as he sees it.
@sechel
Mitnaged ; let’s have an open no holds barred discussion about the personality , education , formative years , and end of life propagation of personal self aggrandizement of the founder of your personality cult , including a step by step discussion of all the details of r shimon deutsh s book [and ashkavte drebi of r rivkin hyd
Chassid : No . These details are banned .
Better to concentrate on all the propaganda . About which our manhig said – chazaka al ta’amula she’ena chozeret rekam.
Mitnaged : but about the leaders of all the other groups of Jews you do encourage such an open no holds barred discussion ? What’s the difference ?
Chassid : This question only reveals your ignorance . Our manhig is TOTALLY different to all the other leaders of jews . He is Mashiach . He is greater than Moshe Rabenu . Atsmut umeut of HKBH is resting within his holy Guf [a’l] . How can you even compare ?
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Which detail mentioned here is incorrect ?To 5783 and Jude
You guys are obviously right, but Lubavichers aren’t interested in logical arguments because their pseudo-Judaism is Avodah Zarah.
To Avira
I really don’t want to belabor this point but I’ll share with you what my Rov said, “Chabadism and Millerism are both cults.” What he means is that the Rebbe’s and Rabbi Miller’s followers are both convinced that their mentors were never wrong. Now I’ll add that we can’t equate the two because Rabbi Miller’s essence was Torah, but basically, I agree with my Rov’s assessment and I’ll prove it. You’re unable to admit that Rabbi Miller was wrong about Chabad. Instead, you’ve convinced yourself that he changed his mind about them as he got older. The only reason you’re doing so is that you need to believe he was perfect. But he was far from perfect. By the way, I have a friend who also gave me that Rabbi Miller changed about Chabad argument and I told him it’s not worth arguing about. The main thing is to stay focused on the real problem which is Chabad.correction-
@sechel
Mitnaged ; let’s have an open no holds barred discussion about the personality , education , formative years , and end of life public pronouncements, including a step by step discussion of all the details of r shimon deutsh s book [and ashkavte drebi of r rivkin hyd
Chassid : No . These details are banned .
Better to concentrate on all the propaganda . About which our manhig said – chazaka al ta’amula she’ena chozeret rekam.
Mitnaged : but about the leaders of all the other groups of Jews you do encourage such an open no holds barred discussion ? What’s the difference ?
Chassid : This question only reveals your ignorance . Our manhig is TOTALLY different to all the other leaders of jews . He is Mashiach . He is greater than Moshe Rabenu . Atsmut umehut of HKBH is resting within his holy Guf [a’l] . How can you even compare ?
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Which detail mentioned here is incorrect ?qwerty: “I spoke to Poskim on this question when the Jews in Pittsburgh were killed and I was told unequivocally that any Jew who is killed because he’s identified as a Jew dies Al Kiddush Hashem and is guaranteed an immediate ticket to Gan Eden”
I heard not that long ago that there is actually no reliable source that a Yid who was killed because he is Jewish goes straight to Gan Eden. I would like to a source either way. And I certainly hope what I heard was incorrect.
But notwithstanding that, I don’t believe that “poskim” can “pasken” who gets into Gan Eden. It is beyond their area of expertise. Therefore, R A Miller is no less authoritative on this matter than they are.
Avirah, I don’t think it is right to say that Rav Kook z”l was “heretical”. There were a great number of gedolei Yisrael who held him in very high regard despite not agreeing with his views. RSZ Auerbach was a talmid of his, as were other great poskim. And I remember once seeing a letter by the Gerer Rebbe z”l saying that he was a great man.
mdd1: “there was one Chassidishe Rebbe (not a contemporary one) who held that Zimri was right in what he did with Kozbi”
I can only assume that you’re referring to the famous piece in Mei Hashilo’ach of the Izhbitzer Rebbe z”l which explains that what Zimri did was due to his understanding of Torah. Nonetheless, the Mei Hashilo’ach says that Zimri was mistaken, and not right as you have written. See the first piece in parshas Pinchas.
If I am wrong in my assumption, and you are referring to a different rebbe, please provide a source.
To Avirah
I was told unequivocally that the Halacha states that anyone killed because they’re Jewish goes to Olam Habo. I asked this question after the Pittsburgh shootings. Frankly, Rabbi Miller’s opinion makes more sense to me but this is what I was told, and the people I asked were heavy hitters. I readily admit that I’m not a scholar but I do have a logical mind and a strong sense of truth and I check my opinions with unimpeachable sources. I’ll give you another example. Rabbi Miller said no turkey on Thanksgiving, but Rav Moshe permitted it. Who do you think I, as a Lower East Sider follow?
AlwaysAsk to Avirah: “You are suggesting that gedolim were making judgments about major current movements lead by other gedolim without investigating the matter properly?”
Not quite. Avirah is suggesting that they made judgments after investigating the matter as far as they could. Don’t forget that Lubavich are experts and believe in propaganda, as the Lubavicher rebbe himself said חזקה לתעמולה שאינה חוזרת ריקם. So many gedolei Yisrael believed that the views and situation in Lubavich were not what they really were.
What I have written is not radical or surprising. There were many gedolei Yisrael who believed that Shabsai Tzvi (NO! I’m not comparing c”v.) was a great tzaddik and possibly Mashiach until the full facts came to light. אין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות.
sechel: “even though rav moshe and every other litvishe gadolim [sic] respected chabad”
Spoken like a true Lubavicher… without taking facts into account! Not EVERY OTHER Litvishe gadol respected Lubavich, and there is a very good chance that more than 90% of them didn’t.
And don’t forget Satmar and their compatriots who did not respect Lubavich at all.
Menachem to sechel: “You’re judging Chabad from the inside and non-Chabad from the outside (internet or random meetings on the street).
This doesn’t really count as an “obvious difference”…”Menachem, I have to give it to you. I disagree very strongly with much of what you say (surprise, surprise!) but you are definitely more intellectually honest than any other Lubavicher (and some of us on the other side) on this thread.
Maybe I should takke start calling you Rabbi 🙂
Avirah to sechel: “writing a lot does not make one bigger or smaller”
The truth is that the Lubavicher rebbe didn’t write even one sefer. He had teams of people, as well as individual chassidim, who wrote the seforim that you are referring to. Furthermore, many, if not most, of the seforim, are rewording, reworking, summarising etc. earlier seform and talks that the Lubavicher rebbe gave.
There’s nothing wrong with that, but to claim that he was the author of hundreds of seforim is disingenous (and that’s another word that I only use in the coffee room).
In the Pittsburgh temple the victims weren’t even all Jewish.
RABBI Meir Kanahe was most definitely a Rabbi, he had semichah from the Mir Yeshiva.
He took a position as the Rabbi of a Conservative synagogue with conditions – they had to install a mechitzah, and resign from the Conservative Movement’s United Synagogues of America.
His contract was not renewed, because the membership did not appreciate that he was convincing their kids to become frum.
He was extremely well learned. I once read that he woke up extremely early each morning to learn, because he had heard that a Muslim Imam woke up early to learn the Koran. He decided that if someone could do that for the Koran, he should do better for the Torah.To DaMoshe
You’re absolutely right. Avira is a good guy and I’d say he’s the leading anti-Chabad voice in this thread, but his way over-the-top anti-Kahane stance can’t be justified.
qwerty: Who is your Modern Orthodox Rabbi that feeds you these things you quote? He probably denies being MO in order to try to increase his “cred” when he makes these left-wing statements that he (and you) deny being on the left.
As far as Mr. Kahane is concerned, the Gedolim were unequivocally against his antics.
Menachem: “I haven’t seen anything on this, but maybe this Gemara could be considered a source, or remez?
הרוגי מלכות אין אדם יכול לעמוד במחיצתן.”Possibly, but it’s not clear that they go straight to Gan Eden. It may mean that their eventual level in Gan Eden is extremely high.
“Who would prefer to deny them this?”. Avira, seriously?!? Because one can think that it is not real justice (“nimtzeis Midas Ha’Din loykah”) that someone can be a big rasha for a long time and then happen to be killed because he’s Jewish, and that makes him get away with everything. I am sure this is what Rabbi Miller also thought. Or you would prefer stam that all reshoim go straight to Gan Eiden even without being killed because they are Jewish?
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