Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

While the discussions about him most definitely not being Mashiach and a novi are very important, I believe that that is not the main point that many of us are trying to convey.

He lead a large group of people along a dangerous path where the belief that their shitah is the only correct one, and that things accepted or rejected for hundreds of years are now to be rejected and accepted, respectively. He constantly justified his and his chassidim’s actions, regardless of how the world saw it.

It is thus no wonder that the level of tznius in Crown Heights and other Lubavich strongholds is far below the level of all other chareidi groups, and the mixing of the genders is atrocious. (Can you name me any other chassidic group where a woman speaking to a group of men is accepted. There are probably small groups of Lubavich chassidim who find this reprehensible, but it is accepted by the vast majority.) If everything we do has been okayed by the boss, and he will bring the geulah any day regardless of what anyone else thinks, then everything is muttar.

Dear Avira,

Now, now. How would that be possible? Is the Chacham just seeing stuff in his head?

Do you realize that you contradicted your earlier posts?

Damoshe, this was not a chabad source, rather a hesped on the steipler from a rosh yeshiva in eretz yisroel; but it had absolutely no bearing on the conversation.

Nom, we would kill them if we had a beis din..we don’t, so we can’t. Neviim must perform a neis and make predictions. If they don’t, then they’re chayav misa.

If the rashba said he was false, what makes you think the arizal followed him? Because you  found some overlap? Edited second time. Next time I can just trash the post, it’s much easier.

I still don’t know who this person was, but i think of he were a major historical figure, there’d be more talk of him and i would have heard something. Plus the neo chabads would have quoted him a lot.

It’s obvious where you get your information from; just copy and paste from the dying pseudo academic blogosphere of people who hate mesorah.

Dear Ujm,

Very simple. Because the majority of Klal Yisroel has yearned for Moshiach throughout the generations.

Dear Arso,

Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up. And convince any other group that their shittah is not the correct one.

Need a mirror?

Nom, the clarity and even ruach hakodesh that one gets from learning is not nevuah; those are distinct entities. They both are means of accessing divine knowledge, but one is accessible to all and the other simply is not. It’s like how rabbonim are like kings; they share a lot with them and they are “me’in” malchus, but they are not halachikally kings. A talmid chacham is not halachikally a navi.

The idea of nevuah in our time is not threatening, it’s just wrong, and a prime example of neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness. Every schmuz that mentioned nevuah that I’ve heard from gedolei yisroel, including those whom I was zocheh to have a relationship with, always have said that we don’t have it nowadays. It’s basic chinuch. So i find it frustrating when people who present themselves as frum lack basic foundations in their Judaism.

Then again, there are foundations more basic to yiddishkeit than this which are up for discussion here, such as corporeality and shituf, so…

Dear Qwerty,

You have a lot of gall. I never intended to insult Rav Moshe. I have a lot more veneration for him and what he achieved than I do for the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Why am I subject to your assumptions of me? Yet you never answer any questions about yourn positions. I have asked you several on this thread. And you never responded. Not once.

It seems like you want to live in a simple, easy world, and are mad at Chabad for making you uncomfortable.

I don’t think that those who were calling Rav Moshe’s home number in middle of the night with threats and curses considered him the Gadol Hador. But who knows? With such crazy folks, anything is possible.

To ARSo
I’m glad you returned to the thread because you’re a powerful voice against these “misnagdim” to legitimate Judaism. I will, however, take one exception your points. The issues of the Rebbe being Moshiach and a Novi are very important. But yes I agree with you. The Rebbe led his followers on a path where they thought(and still think) of themselves as Lubavichers first and Jews second and obviously that’s a dangerous and slippery slope. Moreover we can’t ignore the fact that the Rebbe rejected Pshatim in the Gemara when they were at odds with his agendas. Simply put, our tradition elevates the Talmud Chacham and the Rebbe glorified the religiously disenfranchised.

@qwerty613 “Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador”
besides for when rav shach wrote a letter against the lag beomer parade, in 5740, and reb moshe wrote a letter afterwards to go, for some reason the misnagdim disregarded reb moshe. or reb moshe’s letter to all jews in 5738 to do the rebbe’s mivtzoim – tefillin etc. all can be found in the sefer מנחם משיב נפשי, documented evidence vs “my friend in 9th grade told me…) or when reb moshe came to the rebbe and had a pivate audience, and said that any inyan in torah to spoke to the rebbe about, it seemed the rebbe just learned the sugya. etc. etc.

To Schel83

You’re right, Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador except for a certain neighborhood in Brooklyn. Can’t recall its name. Oh yeah, that would be Crown Heights.

n0m: “What do you mean that he wasn’t spending time on communal needs?”

I never said or implied that. What I said was that other rebbes spend the majority of their time on communal needs and the needs of the individual. The Lubavicher rebbe did not spend MOST OF HIS TIME on that.

“Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up.”

Where did their groups end up that anyone is deserving of blame? And I certainly would blame their leaders if I saw a direct link between their actions/views and a resultant departure from accepted chareidi norms.

I think it was qwerty – although I’m not 100% sure – that Rav Moshe was the undisputed Gadol Hador.

As great as Rav Moshe was, and perhaps he was indeed the Gadol Hador, but he certainly did not have that title undisputedly. When I was learning in E”Y as a bochur, he was virtually never quoted. Not that the israeli chareidim hadn’t heard of him, but they had Rav Elyashiv, Rav SZ Auerbach and others whose piskei halocho were quoted and given full weight. Rav Moshe was considered a big posek for Americans. I am not denigrating Rav Moshe, chas veShalom, just arguing with the term “undisputed”.

Avira:”neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness”

Are you suggesting that they allow the cooking of basar bechalav?! Have they gone that far?! Oh, I get it. You mean kookiness with a k.

Assuming that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe and his father in law were prophets or seers, why was it important for him to reveal that fact? Did he have a special message from God for the Jewish People? Tzaddikim tend to hide their light under a bushel. 8Samuel was punished for saying that he was the seer.

Apparently, I have to clarify yesterday’s statement. If Rav Moshe wasn’t the unquestioned Gadol Hador, as ARSo pointed out, he was surely the Posek Hador in America. Therefore if there were a question of the Rebbe being a Novi, it would be fitting for Rav Moshe to test him. I didn’t mean that Rav Moshe had to give the Rebbe Haskamah as a Novi because the whole idea is preposterous. The Rebbe never claimed to be a Novi. In fact, had he made such a claim, everyone in the Torah world would have accepted Rav Shach’s assessment. This is just another attempt by his disciples to deify him.

To Menachem Shmei

You’re arguing that Rav Moshe wasn’t the Godol Hador because not everyone agreed with each of his rulings. This shows that you lack an understanding of the subject. Rabbi Akiva’s colleagues often challenged him, but that doesn’t diminish his status. The point is that Rav Moshe was clearly a Godol, but in Crown Heights they believe in a “god”ol whose every word is Divine C”V.

To Menachem Shmei

I stand corrected. So we see, according to Menachem, even Crown Heights accepted Rav Moshe as the Posek Hador. So now we return to my basic point. If Chabad wanted to establish the Rebbe as a Novi why wouldn’t they seek out Rav Moshe’s Haskomah? The answer is simple because there was never any question of the Rebbe being a Novi while he was alive. This is nothing but an invention of his followers. What I believe the Rebbe did say, because I heard this from a Lubavicher, is that every Nasi Chabad had Ruach Hakodesh. But Ruach Hakodesh is NOT nevuah. As Avira correctly stated, Nevuah begins with “Koh Amar Hashem” or some equivalent expression that G-d spoke to the person. I can’t believe that we’re spending so much time arguing about such a simple and basic principle. That’s what happens when the other side loses its capacity for rational thought.

To Menachem Shmei

I daven in a Chabad shul during the week(not Shabbos) so I pick up the Rebbe’s Shittas from the Rabbi, who’s a quality individual. I have no time to actually study the Rebbe’s writings so I get them second hand. I don’t study Igros Moshe either so it’s not that I have anything against the Rebbe’s Torah except when he invents his own Pshatim as we’ve discussed in this thread.

To Menachem Shmei

Let me explain my situation. I daven in a Chabad shul in my neighborhood. I listen to the Rabbi’s speeches and read the materials he brings in. From these sources I’ve learned about Chabad and the Rebbe. In a similar vein, for many years I attended a yeshiva run by Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s Talmud Muvhak. From the Rosh Yeshiva I learned Rabbi Miller’s shitas. In addition, I grew up on the Lower East Side and developed lifelong friendships with the Feinstein families. Finally, despite going to Yeshiva, I wasn’t fully frum until I turned 30 and I didn’t begin seriously learning until I was fifty. Long story short, I don’t have the time nor the ability to study all the available sources firsthand as I’m a practicing doctor and I learn Gemara about 7 hours a day. I agree that it’s best to study original sources but I’m doing the best I can to arrive at the truth. As for your comment that I theorized the Rebbe’s opinion. That’s incorrect. What I said is what I heard in shul, and I trust that the Rabbi accurately reported what the Rebbe said because he was reading one of the Rebbe’s letters. If I misrepresent any of the Rebbe’s views, by all means correct me. I’ll then check it out to verify what you said. I readily admit that most of the people in the thread have more Torah knowledge than I, but few can match my logic and love of truth.

To Menachem Shmei

First, refer to him as Rabbi Meir Kahane. Next, you’re obviously trying to insult someone in the group, probably me, so spell out your point. Are you arguing that since I admit that I am not a Talmid Chacham I have no right to voice my opinions?

To YWN moderator
I’m getting the sense that you plan to end this thread with Menachem Shmei’s last posting. If I’m right that doesn’t seem fair.Should he be able to call me an arrogant fool and I can’t respond? Is this my reward for defending Hashem’s honor? Of course, if I’m wrong please ignore this and print what I sent you earlier this morning.

Dear Avira,

You are overrating both his impact and his status as a thinker.

But of course he is way off because your rabbeim didn’t explicitly tell you that he should be a role model. Which checks all the criteria.