Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher
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August 8, 2023 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #2214501n0mesorahParticipant
Dear Avira,
I’m not sure what you are seeing in the meforshim. We know that Nevuah is not what it was in the times of the Bayis Rishon. It is mefurishe pesukim. We do not need the Vilna Goan for that.
I would have to track down all your sources individually.
Seder Olam is clearly coming from the Midrash. Nothing new here.
I saw this piece from Rav Tzaddok inside before. The same way he isn’t saying there is no A’Z anywhere on Earth, he does not mean that there is no ability to attain Nevuah. It means that the world doesn’t work that way anymore. The Idolatry Age was parallel with the availability of Nevuah. I don’t remember if I saw the Goan firsthand, but I always understood it like this Rav Tzadok.
More importantly, nobody ever says that any prophet who comes along today, will be killed because he is automatically a false prophet.
I intend to look up the Michtav Meliyahu when I get a chance.
August 8, 2023 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #2214502ARSoParticipantWhile the discussions about him most definitely not being Mashiach and a novi are very important, I believe that that is not the main point that many of us are trying to convey.
He lead a large group of people along a dangerous path where the belief that their shitah is the only correct one, and that things accepted or rejected for hundreds of years are now to be rejected and accepted, respectively. He constantly justified his and his chassidim’s actions, regardless of how the world saw it.
It is thus no wonder that the level of tznius in Crown Heights and other Lubavich strongholds is far below the level of all other chareidi groups, and the mixing of the genders is atrocious. (Can you name me any other chassidic group where a woman speaking to a group of men is accepted. There are probably small groups of Lubavich chassidim who find this reprehensible, but it is accepted by the vast majority.) If everything we do has been okayed by the boss, and he will bring the geulah any day regardless of what anyone else thinks, then everything is muttar.
August 8, 2023 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #2214514ujmParticipant“If someone would claim that it is valid to not want to experience Moshiach based on Ulah’s opinion, my response would be comparing it to the Chasam Sofer.”
Menachem: How are you qualified to make that comparison, and say that anyone today who holds like Ulah is a kofer, just like the Chasam Sofer says about those who holds like Hillel; anymore than any person today can declare that someone who holds of any random opinion of a Tanna that we don’t pasken like is a kofer?
August 8, 2023 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #2214518n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
Now, now. How would that be possible? Is the Chacham just seeing stuff in his head?
Do you realize that you contradicted your earlier posts?
August 8, 2023 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #2214521n0mesorahParticipantDear Da,
As far as I know, there is nothing Chabad about this source.
The site is otzar .org not otzar .com
August 8, 2023 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #2214532AviraDeArahParticipantDamoshe, this was not a chabad source, rather a hesped on the steipler from a rosh yeshiva in eretz yisroel; but it had absolutely no bearing on the conversation.
Nom, we would kill them if we had a beis din..we don’t, so we can’t. Neviim must perform a neis and make predictions. If they don’t, then they’re chayav misa.
If the rashba said he was false, what makes you think the arizal followed him? Because you found some overlap? Edited second time. Next time I can just trash the post, it’s much easier.
I still don’t know who this person was, but i think of he were a major historical figure, there’d be more talk of him and i would have heard something. Plus the neo chabads would have quoted him a lot.
It’s obvious where you get your information from; just copy and paste from the dying pseudo academic blogosphere of people who hate mesorah.
August 8, 2023 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #2214533n0mesorahParticipantDear Arso,
I know a first hand account of a RY of a non chassidshe yeshiva who spoke with him about matters on a different continent.
What do you mean that he wasn’t spending time on communal needs? He built the whole Chabad network across continents. He was involved in many non Chabad communal needs.
I don’t know what you are like, but I made an assumption about a different poster. This is how the Rebbe reacted when he was challenged by people who wouldn’t learn.
If all you know about him is the sichos, then what is the issue? That the sichos don’t support what Chabad says today?!? They 2023 Chabadsker teenager is definitely more in line with the sichos than anything else!
August 8, 2023 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #2214534n0mesorahParticipantDear Ujm,
Very simple. Because the majority of Klal Yisroel has yearned for Moshiach throughout the generations.
August 8, 2023 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2214535qwerty613ParticipantTo n0mesorah
“About the time of the Six Day War there was a global campaign to discredit Rav Moshe.” Would you care to elaborate? I’m a Lower East Sider who was alive at that time and I have no idea what you’re talking about.
To Avira who addressed n0mesorah
“Most things that are commonly taught in yeshivos are true. There’s a mesorah which you seem to want to undermine at every chance you get.”
You’re absolutely right, so why do you engage in discussion with n0mesorah? He’s clearly not interested in the truth if he’ll even denigrate Rav Moshe.August 8, 2023 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2214539n0mesorahParticipantDear Arso,
Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up. And convince any other group that their shittah is not the correct one.
Need a mirror?
August 8, 2023 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #2214543n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
I’m looking for sources that say after this point in time, every prophet that comes along is obviously a false one. Where does it say that? It would have saved us a lot of grief.
I don’t know to what extent the Rashba rejected him. I don’t understand your question.
The Arizal redid all of Kabbalah. The main purpose of Eitz Chaim was to weed out the illegitimate. If these methods were not valid stuff, they may have slipped through a bit. There wouldn’t be a whole section dedicating to preserving them.
I don’t know why you feel threatened by the existence of prophecy at all times.
August 8, 2023 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2214544Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>How are you qualified to make that comparison, and say that anyone today who holds like Ulah is a kofer
Firstly, as n0mesorah mentioned, this has been accepted in klal yisroel for all generations.
Now, some strong basic sources, I already mentioned them in my original post.
Rambam said that one who doesn’t await Moshiach is a kofer (in mishneh Torah – halacha).
We are obligated to say 3 times a day that we hope for Moshiach all day long, and that we wish to see it with our own eyes – clearly against that view.
Ani maamin – אחכה לו בכל יום שיבואObviously, there are thousands of sources for this from pesukim, chazal, rishonim and achronim. But these sources that I mentioned show that this is accepted as mainstream halacha.
August 8, 2023 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #2214546n0mesorahParticipantDear Qwerty,
Chas v’shalom that I would denigrate Rav Moshe! Where did you get that from.
The reaction to Rav Moshe over artificial insemination was very intense. Not because his detractors knew what they were talking about. I don’t understand why everyone is so threatened by Chabad. They weren’t threating Rav Moshe to retract his psakim.
August 8, 2023 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #2214542AviraDeArahParticipantNom, the clarity and even ruach hakodesh that one gets from learning is not nevuah; those are distinct entities. They both are means of accessing divine knowledge, but one is accessible to all and the other simply is not. It’s like how rabbonim are like kings; they share a lot with them and they are “me’in” malchus, but they are not halachikally kings. A talmid chacham is not halachikally a navi.
August 8, 2023 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2214552n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
I don’t care what he is in halachah. That would only matter to if we have to listen to him. The question here is, is he accessing it or not.
So now my question is, when he reaches this clarity, how would he know if it is just ruach hakodesh or actual nevuah?
Did you just post that ruach hakodesh is accessible to all?
August 8, 2023 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #2214553Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>Unlike most other rebbes who spend a majority of their time dealing with askonim on inyonei tzibbur and and regular supplicants, the Lubavicher rebbe sat in his room by himself most of the day. It makes sense that he prepared his sichos.
I love this post. Usually people claim that the Rebbe isn’t a gadol because he spent too much time in askonus and no time learning. It’s refreshing to see someone who knows the truth, though I don’t know why you had to go to the opposite extreme.
מענין לענין, just last night I was watching a Chof Av farbrengen from 5731 (commemorating the Rebbe’s father’s yahrtzeit).
Four hours of pure bliss! It started with a hadran on Chagigah, and then the he built a lishitasayu of Shamai and Hillel. After explaining their general positions, he presented a machlokes between Hillel and Shamai from a each seder of shas, and showed how they all follow the same reasoning. Wrapped up with a lesson for how to look at another Yid based on the machlokes in Keitzad Merakdim.
This was followed by a pilpul explaining the opinions of Rashi and Maharsha in a Gemara in Taanis with about 10 powerful questions on the Gemara which were all answered with one point.
And much more. I thank Hashem for giving me access to this!August 8, 2023 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2214555Menachem ShmeiParticipantAvira,
I didn’t understand the hesped as you did, but I’ll have to go back and reread it
August 8, 2023 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2214556AviraDeArahParticipantThe idea of nevuah in our time is not threatening, it’s just wrong, and a prime example of neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness. Every schmuz that mentioned nevuah that I’ve heard from gedolei yisroel, including those whom I was zocheh to have a relationship with, always have said that we don’t have it nowadays. It’s basic chinuch. So i find it frustrating when people who present themselves as frum lack basic foundations in their Judaism.
Then again, there are foundations more basic to yiddishkeit than this which are up for discussion here, such as corporeality and shituf, so…
August 8, 2023 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2214557qwerty613ParticipantTo n0mesorah
You’re denying that you insulted Rav Moshe? You stated that there was a global campaign to discredit him. Your intention was to make it seem as if all the Rabbis in the world were renouncing him. Anyone reading that post would come to that conclusion. Now you clarify your statement. Sure there were Poskim who disagreed with his position but everyone accepted him as the Gadol Hador. Now the reason you implied otherwise is because I said that he could have tested the Rebbe as a Novi and you needed to find some way to reject that idea. Have you no shame? That’s a rhetorical question?August 8, 2023 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #2214559Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>a woman speaking to a group of men … is accepted by the vast majority
I’m not sure what you mean. If you’re referring to a crowd of non frum men and women, though it’s not so common, it is possible that some shluchos do this. It’s possible that it’s wrong, it’s possible that they have a heter from a rov.
If you’re talking about in front of a group of Lubavitcher men, I’ve never seen such a thing, so it’s definitely not something accepted by the mainstream.
For example, they would never ch”v have a woman speak at the kinnus, or at the children’s rallies, etc. Unless you include a young girl saying the pesukim (at rallies, children come up to lead the other children in saying pesukim and maamorei chazal. Sometimes a boy leads the posuk, and sometimes a girl. Children.)
Even if something like this happens, it comes from modernity. Yes there are modern orthodox Jews who call themselves Chabad because they generally follow the Chabad derech. Called Chabad lite.
Where i think your completely wrong is that this has anything to do with the geula or “the boss”. On the contrary, the ones who care more about “the boss” and talk more about Moshiach tend to be the more frum ones. Those who are more modern will admit that the Rebbe isn’t too happy about what they’re doing (let’s not get into a whole thing on this, just answering what you brought up) and that it’s distancing the geula.August 8, 2023 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #2214566n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
Again, this is nothing to do with Chabad. There are yidden today that work to experience prophecy. Admittedly, none of them that I know claim success. I doubt they would tell me if they did achieve it.
Though I think I found the key:
“… always said that we don’t have it nowadays.:
Who is the we, and why is that evidence to this discussion?
August 8, 2023 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #2214568n0mesorahParticipantDear Qwerty,
You have a lot of gall. I never intended to insult Rav Moshe. I have a lot more veneration for him and what he achieved than I do for the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Why am I subject to your assumptions of me? Yet you never answer any questions about yourn positions. I have asked you several on this thread. And you never responded. Not once.
It seems like you want to live in a simple, easy world, and are mad at Chabad for making you uncomfortable.
I don’t think that those who were calling Rav Moshe’s home number in middle of the night with threats and curses considered him the Gadol Hador. But who knows? With such crazy folks, anything is possible.
August 8, 2023 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2214569n0mesorahParticipantMy point was that Rav Moshe’s test would not have carried universal weight in 1967. The Rebbe had a much greater following, especially among the other Rebbes than Rav Moshe.
August 8, 2023 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #2214548qwerty613ParticipantTo ARSo
I’m glad you returned to the thread because you’re a powerful voice against these “misnagdim” to legitimate Judaism. I will, however, take one exception your points. The issues of the Rebbe being Moshiach and a Novi are very important. But yes I agree with you. The Rebbe led his followers on a path where they thought(and still think) of themselves as Lubavichers first and Jews second and obviously that’s a dangerous and slippery slope. Moreover we can’t ignore the fact that the Rebbe rejected Pshatim in the Gemara when they were at odds with his agendas. Simply put, our tradition elevates the Talmud Chacham and the Rebbe glorified the religiously disenfranchised.August 8, 2023 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2214577AviraDeArahParticipantMenachem, here’s the relevant text:
In our time of hester, anyone can, through their learning, figure out what Hashem wants them to know about their suffering:
מתוך יסודות וסודות התורה שנתגלו לנו ע”י חז”ל ניתן לכל אדם לבחון ולנסות לפתור ענין מאורעותיו ויסוריו וכו’ ומצינו בזה סוגיא ערוכה בסוטה נט י ע”ש היטב ומסופר על הגר”ח מוואלזין זצ”ל שהודיעוהו פעם
And gedolei yisroel see much deeper, into why things happen in the world, again through their yirah and torah:
בכל דור ודור שתל הקב”ה אותם אבירי גדולי ישראל מתוך תורתם השלמה ויראתם הצרופה חנן אותם הקב”ה באותו כח וסגולת רואה ממש הם המגידים לנו את דרכנו אשר הלכנו עליה ופותרים לנו את תכלית היסורים על מה ולמה באו ולעוררנו ולזרזנו לתקן דרכינו ושלא נהיה ח”ו מאותם שנאמר בהם ותלהטהו סביב ולא ידע ותבער בו בו ממש ולא שם על לב
August 8, 2023 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #2214596sechel83Participant@qwerty613 “Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador”
besides for when rav shach wrote a letter against the lag beomer parade, in 5740, and reb moshe wrote a letter afterwards to go, for some reason the misnagdim disregarded reb moshe. or reb moshe’s letter to all jews in 5738 to do the rebbe’s mivtzoim – tefillin etc. all can be found in the sefer מנחם משיב נפשי, documented evidence vs “my friend in 9th grade told me…) or when reb moshe came to the rebbe and had a pivate audience, and said that any inyan in torah to spoke to the rebbe about, it seemed the rebbe just learned the sugya. etc. etc.August 8, 2023 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #2214597qwerty613ParticipantTo n0mesorah
When you admit that what you wrote about Rav Moshe was slanderous and you publicly apologize, I’ll respond to your challenges. You don’t have to remind me that I haven’t answered. It’s totally intentional and it’s because you’ve behaved like a boor.
August 8, 2023 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #2214609qwerty613ParticipantTo Schel83
You’re right, Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador except for a certain neighborhood in Brooklyn. Can’t recall its name. Oh yeah, that would be Crown Heights.
August 9, 2023 2:10 am at 2:10 am #2214636Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>When you admit that what you wrote about Rav Moshe was slanderous and you publicly apologize, I’ll respond to your challenges.
You said that we need Reb Moshe to give his haskoma to the Rebbe being Moshiach, since he was the undisputed posek of gantz klal yisroel.
If I understand correctly, n0mesorah just pointed out a true fact. That they probably wouldn’t care about his haskoma in Williamsburg, Bnei Brak, Meiah Shearim, etc.
Then you went on to accuse him of attacking Reb Moshe, and when he tried to defend himself, you said that you would ignore his defense (which you obviously read) until he apologized for what you know he never said.
Sechel also pointed out historical proof that Reb Moshe wouldn’t make a difference in this case: Reb Moshe has several psakim and letters supporting Lubavitch activities and immensely praising the Lubavitcher Rebbe, yet that doesn’t impress the haters in the slightest.
To prove his point, below are some excerpts of what Reb Moshe wrote about Lubavitch (my point isn’t to prove anything to the other posters here, since they will say that he didn’t really know what was going on in Chabad, or Chabad changed.
This is specifically for qwerty who claims to respect Reb Moshe so much):Regarding mivtza neiros shabbos, (which many rabbanim attacked, כדרכם):
ואם הרבי סובר שהוא ענין גדול לקרב בזה לתורה ולשמירת שבת, מי יכול לומר שאינו כן. ויצליחהו השי”ת בכוונתו לקדש שם שמים, וברצונו להרבות שומרי תורה ושומרי שבת בישראלLetter to rabbanim to speak about mivtzoim following the Rebbe’s heart attack in 5738:
בקשר עם מצב בריאותו של הגאון הצדיק האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש שליט”א, אשר שם לילות כימים בהרבצת התורה להחזקת היהדות, ובקירוב לבבות אחינו בני ישראל לאביהם שבשמים. הנני פונה בזה אל כבוד הרבנים שליט”א די בכל אתר ואתר, לדבר בבתי כנסיות ובבתי מדרשות, לעורר את אנשי קהילתם על דבר המבצעים הידועים של האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש לזכות את אחינו בני ישראל במצות תפילין מזוזה נרות שבת וכו’.. הרי בוודאי שכל פעולה במבצעים הנ”ל תחזק את בריאותוIn 5740, when Rav Shach attacked lag baomer parades (as sechel mentioned):
לכל חובבי תורה ומוקירי מצוה. זה למעלה משלושים שנה מארגנים ביום ל”ג בעומר תהלוכה פאראד …. חוב קדוש מוטל על כל המחנכים והמדריכים, בני תורה ולומדי הישיבות, אשר בידם לתרום ולעזור ל”תהלוכה” חשובה זו, לסייע בידי המארגנים כפי כחם ויכלתם, וגם לבוא ולהשתתף בזה, כי ברוב עם הדרת מלך. ויהי חלקם בין מזכי הרבים, להאדרת והפצת התורה בקרב עם ישראל”In honor of the first siyum harambam (which Rav Shach fiercely attacked):
ברכתי ברכת התורה, שלוחה לכל המשתתפים בסיום המחזור הראשון של לימוד המשנה תורה של הרמב”ם.. ישר כחו וחילו של האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש שליט”א, שזכה וזיכה את הרבנים במצות לימוד התורה לשמה, ששקולה כנגד כולם. יהי רצון מהשי”ת שיאריך ימיו ושנותיו, שיפוצו מעיינותיו חוצה להרביץ תורה ויראת ה’ ברבים, עד ביאת גואל צדק במהרה בימינו אמןFor the Rebbe’s birthday:
הנני בזה לברך את הוד כבוד קדושת הגאון הצדיק מורנו הרב רבי מנחם מנדל שליט”א שניאורסאהן האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש, שבמסירת נפש נפלאה שומר את חומות הדת ומפיץ תורה ויראה בקרב עם ישראל. יברכהו ה’ יתברך באריכות ימים ושנים בהנהגת נשיאותו ברמה, ברוב פעליו המרובים לכבוד השי”ת ותורתו ומצוותיו, ואשר מקרב בהם הרבה מהנחשלים לאבינו שבשמים ולאהבת תורתנו הקדושה וקיום מצוות התורה למעשה, עד ביאת הגואל משיח צדקנו, ובנין בית מקדשנו, ולחוג חג הפסח עם כל ישראל כהלכתו. הכותב וחותם באהבה ובשמחה, בשמי ובשם כל הרבנים חברי אגודת הרבנים. משה פיינשטייןAnd for the Rebbe’s 80th:
בקשר לידידי וחביבי מעלת הוד כבוד קדושת הגאון הצדיק האדמו”ר מנחם מענדל שליט”א שניאורסאהן מליובאוויטש, הנה ידוע בעולם אודות גאונותו בתורה ואיך שהוא באמת מתעסק גדול בתורה בגאון, שהוא עובד תמיד בתורה ושהוא באמת בעל תורה.. במשך השנים שאני מכיר את האדמו”ר שליט”א, שהקשר בינינו היה בידידות גדולה, היה לי כמה הזדמנויות להשתעשע עמו בענינים מסובכים בין בתורת הנגלה ובין בתורת הנסתר, ותמיד החשבתיו כרום גדולתו וגאונותו…לפיכך אני משתתף בשמחה להענין שנתקבל בעולם כולו, שיש שמחה גדולה שהשי”ת האריך ימיו לשנת השמונים. ואין מספיק סתם לברכו לאריכות ימים ושנים, שהיום לא מספיק ברכה זו, שמקוים שמלך המשיח יבוא מיד ובקרוב, ויזכה אז האדמו”ר שליט”א לעבוד לעולם ועד בתורה וביראת שמים.. ונברך שיזכה ידידי אדמו”ר שליט”א לאריכות זה, ושיזכו כל כלל ישראל לגאולה השלימה בקרוב מיד ביחד עם האדמו”ר שליט”א.Representing all the rabbanim of Agudas Yisroel:
מעלת כבוד ידידנו וידיד כל ישראל הגאון הצדיק מורנו הרב ר’ מנחם מנדל שניאורסאהן שליט”א האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש. באנו בזה בשמנו ובשם כל הרבנים חברי אגודת הרבנים, לברך את כבוד קדושת תורתו הקדושה להגיעו לשנת שמונים ואחת, בחסדי ה’ יתברך עליו ועל כל ישראל הצריכים לכקתר”ה ולחכמי התורה. אשר השם יתברך יאריך ימיו ושנותיו של כקתר”ה בחיים דשנים ורעננים להשפעתו על ישראל עוד ביתר שאת וביתר עוז, וינהיג נשיאותו לטובת כלל ישראל וכבוד שמים עד כי יבוא שילה. הכותב וחותם בשמנו ובשם כל הרבנים חברי אגודת הרבנים. משה פיינשטיין, נשיאAugust 9, 2023 2:11 am at 2:11 am #2214637Menachem ShmeiParticipantAvira,
I don’t know if you read the entire discussion there.
He explains that the title רואה is used about a novi when he uses his power of nevuah to help individuals.He also brings from Rambam yesodei hatorah that how does one become a novi? If he delves into Torah and careful in serving Hashem, he merits that ruach hakodesh rests upon him.
Then he says that so too nowadays, there are people who are so perfect in their Torah learning and yiras shamayim, that Hashem gives them the same power of רואה (novi) to guide us in avodas Hashem.
This is exactly what the Rebbe said. Since nevua is a foundation of Torah and the Rambam doesn’t give any time limits for it, rather he says that in any time that a holy man arises and performs miracles he is a novi – this teaches that even nowadays (though much less common since נסתלקה רוח הקודש) the spirit of nevua can rest upon great tzaddikim so they can guide us in spiritual and physical matters.
This is especially proven from the Rambam who writes that as a PREPARATION for Moshiach, nevua will definitely return to Yisroel. אין ספק שחזרת הנבואה לישראל הוא הקדמת המשיחAugust 9, 2023 3:22 am at 3:22 am #2214648qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
Did n0mesorah ask you for help in dealing with me? I made him an offer. If he wants me to answer his challenge he has to do public Tshuvah for insulting Rav Moshe. It’s surprising that you’re defending him since he agrees with normative Judaism that Rav Moshe was much greater than the Rebbe.
August 9, 2023 7:49 am at 7:49 am #2214642ARSoParticipantn0m: “What do you mean that he wasn’t spending time on communal needs?”
I never said or implied that. What I said was that other rebbes spend the majority of their time on communal needs and the needs of the individual. The Lubavicher rebbe did not spend MOST OF HIS TIME on that.
“Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up.”
Where did their groups end up that anyone is deserving of blame? And I certainly would blame their leaders if I saw a direct link between their actions/views and a resultant departure from accepted chareidi norms.
I think it was qwerty – although I’m not 100% sure – that Rav Moshe was the undisputed Gadol Hador.
As great as Rav Moshe was, and perhaps he was indeed the Gadol Hador, but he certainly did not have that title undisputedly. When I was learning in E”Y as a bochur, he was virtually never quoted. Not that the israeli chareidim hadn’t heard of him, but they had Rav Elyashiv, Rav SZ Auerbach and others whose piskei halocho were quoted and given full weight. Rav Moshe was considered a big posek for Americans. I am not denigrating Rav Moshe, chas veShalom, just arguing with the term “undisputed”.
Avira:”neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness”
Are you suggesting that they allow the cooking of basar bechalav?! Have they gone that far?! Oh, I get it. You mean kookiness with a k.
August 9, 2023 7:50 am at 7:50 am #2214654Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>It’s surprising that you’re defending him
I know, you keep getting surprised when people defend posters who have different views than them.
This is the difference between a political debate and a Talmudic machlokes (lehavdil).
August 9, 2023 7:50 am at 7:50 am #2214659JudeParticipantAssuming that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe and his father in law were prophets or seers, why was it important for him to reveal that fact? Did he have a special message from God for the Jewish People? Tzaddikim tend to hide their light under a bushel. 8Samuel was punished for saying that he was the seer.
August 9, 2023 9:17 am at 9:17 am #2214684Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>Did he have a special message from God for the Jewish People?
Yes. All the questions here on what the Rebbe said are answered by what the Rebbe actually said. Learn the sicha. Unless questions appeal more than answers.
>>>Tzaddikim tend to hide their light under a bushel.
Correct. The Rebbe very rarely hinted to his tzidkus only when extremely necessary.
Again, if you learn the actual sicha you’ll see that the Rebbe is speaking about the tzidkus of his father-in-law. Chassidim inferred from it to apply it to the Rebbe as well.
Similar to how your father might not tell you how to respect him, but you learn from the way he respects his own parents.On this topic, while looking through Igros Kodesh (collection of Rebbe’s letters gathered from the recipients or archives) here is something shocking I came across (vol. 16, letter #5907):
Yaakov Zerubavel was a leftist philosopher who fought vehemently against Yiddishkeit.
In this 5718 letter to Yaakov Avraham Leselbaum, a relative of the philosopher, the Rebbe asks him to meet up with Zerubaval and details what he should tell him so he should rethink his views and stop spreading his nonsense. The letter finishes off:
ולאות ולמופת לקרובו הנ”ל אשר בא העת לבקורת עוד הפעם על שיטתו בעבר, יהי’ לו החלום שבסמוך לדבורו עמו.
“As a sign and miracle for your relative that the time has come to rethink his opinion – he will have a dream near the time that you speak to him.”I don’t know the end of the story, but a few months later, we find another letter to Leselbaum:
נהניתי במאד לקרות בו, אשר סו”ס עלה בידו לקיים בקשתי ולמסור למר ז. שי’ את הדברים. וטוב במיוחד שלא נכנס לכל ויכוחים וכל שקו”ט, כי לא זו הכוונה. ועפי”ז מובן ג”כ, שגם להבא אין לו להכנס בוכוחים בזה. והרי עשה שליחותי וגם אני עשיתי שליחותי שלי.
“You have fulfilled your mission and I have fulfilled mine…”The letters can be found in their entirety here:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15827&st=&pgnum=144August 9, 2023 9:18 am at 9:18 am #2214683qwerty613ParticipantApparently, I have to clarify yesterday’s statement. If Rav Moshe wasn’t the unquestioned Gadol Hador, as ARSo pointed out, he was surely the Posek Hador in America. Therefore if there were a question of the Rebbe being a Novi, it would be fitting for Rav Moshe to test him. I didn’t mean that Rav Moshe had to give the Rebbe Haskamah as a Novi because the whole idea is preposterous. The Rebbe never claimed to be a Novi. In fact, had he made such a claim, everyone in the Torah world would have accepted Rav Shach’s assessment. This is just another attempt by his disciples to deify him.
To Menachem Shmei
You’re arguing that Rav Moshe wasn’t the Godol Hador because not everyone agreed with each of his rulings. This shows that you lack an understanding of the subject. Rabbi Akiva’s colleagues often challenged him, but that doesn’t diminish his status. The point is that Rav Moshe was clearly a Godol, but in Crown Heights they believe in a “god”ol whose every word is Divine C”V.
August 9, 2023 11:19 am at 11:19 am #2214704Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>> Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador except for a certain neighborhood in Brooklyn. Can’t recall its name. Oh yeah, that would be Crown Heights.
Handwritten response of the Rebbe to a certain halachic question:
האומנם אין ידוע שיש מכתב פסק דין בזה, שנדפס מהרב פיינשטיין?!
“Do you not know that there is a psak din regarding this by Harav FeinsteinAugust 9, 2023 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #2214725qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
I stand corrected. So we see, according to Menachem, even Crown Heights accepted Rav Moshe as the Posek Hador. So now we return to my basic point. If Chabad wanted to establish the Rebbe as a Novi why wouldn’t they seek out Rav Moshe’s Haskomah? The answer is simple because there was never any question of the Rebbe being a Novi while he was alive. This is nothing but an invention of his followers. What I believe the Rebbe did say, because I heard this from a Lubavicher, is that every Nasi Chabad had Ruach Hakodesh. But Ruach Hakodesh is NOT nevuah. As Avira correctly stated, Nevuah begins with “Koh Amar Hashem” or some equivalent expression that G-d spoke to the person. I can’t believe that we’re spending so much time arguing about such a simple and basic principle. That’s what happens when the other side loses its capacity for rational thought.
August 9, 2023 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #2214743Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>What I believe the Rebbe did say, because I heard this from a Lubavicher
Should I point out for the umpteenth time how ridiculous it is to THEORIZE about what the Rebbe MIGHT have said, when it is literally printed right here???
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16067&st=&pgnum=337August 9, 2023 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #2214810qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
I daven in a Chabad shul during the week(not Shabbos) so I pick up the Rebbe’s Shittas from the Rabbi, who’s a quality individual. I have no time to actually study the Rebbe’s writings so I get them second hand. I don’t study Igros Moshe either so it’s not that I have anything against the Rebbe’s Torah except when he invents his own Pshatim as we’ve discussed in this thread.
August 9, 2023 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2214746n0mesorahParticipantThere is a mistake here.
The test for a Navi is not a faher on shas. It is to see if he can foretell what will happen. It seems that those who hear him prophesizing are the ones who test him.
Another mistake.
Chabad is not or did not try to establish their rebbe as a navi. This came up as something he said which some posters think is off the rails. It’s a mainstream idea. Just that the rest of us don’t delve into these concepts. And we don’t speak publicly about these topics.
If you want to get on Chabad because of our taboos, you have to acknowledge that silence doesn’t mean dissent. Otherwise, your just disagreeing with yourself.
August 9, 2023 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #2214779qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
Let me explain my situation. I daven in a Chabad shul in my neighborhood. I listen to the Rabbi’s speeches and read the materials he brings in. From these sources I’ve learned about Chabad and the Rebbe. In a similar vein, for many years I attended a yeshiva run by Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s Talmud Muvhak. From the Rosh Yeshiva I learned Rabbi Miller’s shitas. In addition, I grew up on the Lower East Side and developed lifelong friendships with the Feinstein families. Finally, despite going to Yeshiva, I wasn’t fully frum until I turned 30 and I didn’t begin seriously learning until I was fifty. Long story short, I don’t have the time nor the ability to study all the available sources firsthand as I’m a practicing doctor and I learn Gemara about 7 hours a day. I agree that it’s best to study original sources but I’m doing the best I can to arrive at the truth. As for your comment that I theorized the Rebbe’s opinion. That’s incorrect. What I said is what I heard in shul, and I trust that the Rabbi accurately reported what the Rebbe said because he was reading one of the Rebbe’s letters. If I misrepresent any of the Rebbe’s views, by all means correct me. I’ll then check it out to verify what you said. I readily admit that most of the people in the thread have more Torah knowledge than I, but few can match my logic and love of truth.
August 10, 2023 7:08 am at 7:08 am #2214861Menachem ShmeiParticipantMeir Kahane הי”ד would often say:
“Ignorance is tolerable.
Arrogance is bad, but I can tolerate it as well.
But the arrogance of ignorance is unacceptable!”
(It’s possible he borrowed this quote from others, but he’s who I know it from)וד”ל…
August 10, 2023 11:02 am at 11:02 am #2214890qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
First, refer to him as Rabbi Meir Kahane. Next, you’re obviously trying to insult someone in the group, probably me, so spell out your point. Are you arguing that since I admit that I am not a Talmid Chacham I have no right to voice my opinions?
August 10, 2023 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2214900qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
Apparently, you’re taking a shot at me because I admitted I’m not a Talmid Chacham. Despite what you’d like to believe that doesn’t Passul me for this thread. One of the points you keep repeating is that Rav Moshe thought well of the Rebbe. I won’t challenge that, however, I know, as a fact, that this is no longer the opinion of the Feinsteins. As I mentioned, I’m a doctor and one of Rav Moshe’s grandsons is a patient, and he is completely in lockstep with my view. And he’s not the only member of the family who feels this way, but I’m not at liberty to give any more details. Now you’ll ask, how could they argue on Rav Moshe? The answer is simple. A Godol is not a “god”ol. Anyone can challenge his views, yes even family members. I’ll give a second proof of this. Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik was good friends with the Rebbe, but that didn’t stop Rav Hershel Schachter, his Talmid Muvhak, from publicly stating that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of Hashem and calling this idolatry.
August 10, 2023 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2214912qwerty613ParticipantTo YWN moderator
I’m getting the sense that you plan to end this thread with Menachem Shmei’s last posting. If I’m right that doesn’t seem fair.Should he be able to call me an arrogant fool and I can’t respond? Is this my reward for defending Hashem’s honor? Of course, if I’m wrong please ignore this and print what I sent you earlier this morning.August 10, 2023 11:23 am at 11:23 am #2214916AviraDeArahParticipantI don’t call him rabbi either; he may have had smicha, but he was way off…he put jews in danger, and calling him a rabbi gives his ideology an air of legitimacy
August 10, 2023 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #2214955Menachem ShmeiParticipant>>>I don’t have the time nor the ability to study all the available sources firsthand
If I knew nothing about eiruvin and I only have 20 minutes of free time every day.
I have two options:
1) Spend those 20 minutes learning about eiruvin.
2) Spend those 20 minutes arguing about eiruvin.If I pick the second option, I will probably lose the argument most of the time. But I can always excuse myself that it’s not my fault, after all I am the greatest genius! Is it my fault that I’m not learned in eiruvin!? I have no free time to learn!
This is called the arrogance of ignorance.
(as RABBI Meir Kahane used to say.
Were you upset that I missed “rabbi” or that I wrote הי”ד?)August 10, 2023 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #2214963AviraDeArahParticipant**that was referring to Meir kahanah. Regarding the Lubavitcher rebbe, i just refer to him as such; i don’t have the qualifications to determine what his personal status was vis a vis his learning ability, and if he meant what he said about god-in-a-body etc…and it doesn’t really concern me what he is – it’s between him and Hashem. What concerns me is how his community, which positions itself as a fixture in the Jewish world, thinks and behaves.
August 10, 2023 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2214964n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
You are overrating both his impact and his status as a thinker.
But of course he is way off because your rabbeim didn’t explicitly tell you that he should be a role model. Which checks all the criteria.
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