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I’m the Lubavitcher described in the title.
I call myself ignorant and closed-minded because although I often meet and speak to non frum Yidden (Friday mivtzoim etc.), I rarely have a chance to speak to frum non Lubavitchers. Usually not more often than once a month.
In other words, I’m living in the Chabad bubble.On the occasions that I do get to meet them, the conversation almost always quickly turns to discussing the Rebbe being Moshiach (myself not being the one steering the conversation…).
I always assumed that this is only because they are speaking to a Lubavitcher, so they bring up this topic.However, here in the coffee coffeeroom, I’ve begun to doubt my assumption.
Not a day goes by without fiery discussions about this sole topic.And one conversation doesn’t seem to be enough.
There are usually 2-3 threads running at once on this topic!
(Currently: Problem with… Chabad inspires… RCA Statement… and I guess also this one)If you go through the CR archives, you will find dozens of threads on this topic.
My ignorant question is: Is this the main thing that people speak about?
If I walk into a litvishe yeshiva (outside the time of learning) or a chassidishe mikvah, should I expect to overhear a heated discussion about the Lubavitchers’ claim (or if they claim) that the Rebbe is Moshiach?
If the answer is yes, I ask: Why are people so obsessed with this?
If the answer is no, I ask: Why is the CR different?
If you’ll look closely, you’ll see that those current threads discussing lubavitch are usually started by the same one or two posters.
You are correct that many people bring up the topic because they are talking to Lubavitchers. I grew up in an area with many Lubavitchers and Litvaks. Many times when the Litvish Bochurim met the Chabad bochurim, the conversations were about the Rebbe if he’s still alive and whether he was/is Mashiach.
I don’t think you’d find Litvaks discussing it on a daily basis.No, Chabad is not obsessed over or brought up frequently (if ever) in non-Chabad circles. The CR is not representative of the real world. On the Internet, one thread inspires another, and a bunch of discussion comes in a wave that crests then troughs. Think of the phrase going viral. The “Chabad inspires” thread was started by a provocateur. The “RCA statement” thread was started in response to that thread, etc. This forum is designed to promote debate.
I obviously cannot speak for anyone else but as for myself, it is the entire Lubavitchers belief system that is dramatic, tragic and fascinating. In my view, so much of Chabad today closely resembles early Christianity and makes me wonder what religion Lubavitchers really practice. It is not a simple machlokes over whether or not you follow shitta a or shitta b but rather a much broader question in my mind whether Lubavitch is even still considered within Machane Yisroel or whether they have formed a new religion. The rebbe question is only the largest symptoms of this and gets the most attention. What makes this harder is the fact that so many Lubavitchers I know do not subscribe to the mainstream Lubavitch views so how can I throw out the entire movement. Also, in my mind, Chabad was so close to perfecting Judiasm before they introduced these crazy ideas I feel like if we can only get back to the way it was we can have a perfect Judiasm. I still go to the Ohel as often as I can. Besach Hakol, i obsess over Lubavitch because it is fascinating, dramatic and tragic at the same time.
minor edit
Almost all Chabad threads are posted by Chabad pushing an agenda or in like 3/4 of the posts its by trolls looking for attention.
Menachem
The answer is, is that chabad is a great sect in yiddishkeit and it would be even better if it cut out “the rebbe is moshiach” naarishkeitin so the frum non chabadniks that you meet are trying to make chabad (and in essence the whole religion) better
We have the same problems and will never admit it. So we atttack Chabad to make ourselves feel better.
I am from Litvak misnagid on one side and Yekke on the other.
My shul minysn is completely mixed ( typical in small town America). Lakewood, TV, Brisk, Israeli, Euro-traditional, etc.
My evening chavrusa is Lubavitch, my morning chavrusa learned at Chaim Berlin.
In all the schmoozing that goes on before minyan starts or learning I have never heard the topic of the late Rebbe being the moshiach mentioned.
The Lubavitch who live in town and gave a minyan in their home the past 40 years never bring this up when interacting with other Jews.It’s two things, I think.
One is that over here, people are usually anonymous, so can speak with a certain candor you won’t find in the real world. Myself, for instance, the times I’ve brought up the Moshiach question with Lubavitchers was always uncomfortable for both of us and the discussion was quickly dropped. And I’m afraid of losing friendships and alienating people when I find out that they worship a dead man, or they find out that I hold of them as an apikores.
A second reason could be that the Messianism and Rebbe worship (yes it happens, yes it’s common, no not in the way other Chassidim respect their Rebbe) is what really pushed Lubavitch out of the rest of the frum world. So when a frum person sees a Lubavitcher, one thought is “Huh, this person could really be part of our community but there’s that huge stumbling block in the way” and it really drives the whole relationship. It’s the reason why you won’t find too many mentions of Chabad events in Yated or Hamodia, or why Chabad Rabbonim aren’t speaking at the Siyum HaShas. It’s the 800 pound gorilla in the room and we can’t just ignore it.
One of the predictable results of these discussions is the charge of machlokes, sinas chinam, bigotry, hatefulness or wickedness leveled at anyone who disagrees with what has become normative Chabad orthodoxy. This is a cheap tactic meant to quell any and all discussion regarding the virtues or faults of Chabad. Thank you very much, but nobody has the right to force us to go against the values with which we were raised. Nobody.
Another queer feature concomitant with these threads is the absurd remark made by some along the lines of “So, Chabad holds that their Rebbe is the Moshiach. Big deal. Get over it!” Or how about this one: “The Rebbe knew as much Torah as the Brisker Rov.”
Really? Surely you jest.
But no, they are quite serious. Historical revisionism and logical fallacies are par for the course. Marvel at the zero-sum game they play.
I have longstanding relationships with people in Crown Heights and Morristown and know the average Lubavitcher chassidim to be beautiful Jews. It is for this reason I opt out of most of these threads.
There are others, however, who have invaded established kehillos and executed a hostile takeover of the shul board. One of my late friends, a longtime pulpit rabbi, experienced this. The ordeal drove him to an early grave.
Still and all, most of the time I שוויַיג שטיל. Only when I read something over-the-top regarding MMS or some Chabad activity will I feel it necessary to contribute a salient thought.
i think from being around, the litvaks dont talk about it beetween themselves, but when they bump into chabad in camps or vacations, they – the teenagers and kids attack the chabad kids or teenagers, maybe they come back to school and mention to their friends what happened. b”h today the typical litvak respects chabad,
but just to mention, a regular litvak is not taught in school about chabad, so they just hear random stuf from their friends like they do kiruv, and mivtzoim, many young ones think that the chabad houses are there for them to have a minyan when they go on vecation.
its like in chabad we are not toaght about their gadol hador and many in chabad never heard of alot of things by them and may think its strang or even have things about them twisted.On one hand, as mentioned above, people make discuss here issues that they will be uncomfortable to mention in person.
2nd, I have a similar question in reverse: those Chabadnikim who sound reasonably in public – do they also chant moreinu .. when they are surrounded by only their own?
3rd, I would prefer to rather discuss Chabad great work with under-observant Yidden, and how others could join or learn from that, rather than all these shtuyot. I wish other Yidden discuss THAT even when they are not near Chabadnikim, but I rarely see that.
4th, rejection of Chabad by other groups is not based on recent events, it was there when L Rebbe Z’L was alive. Whatever the particulars were, the main basis is not joining the main opinion, same as with others who are not counted.
I have friends and neighbors who are Chabad and the issue rarely comes up. When in Israel, I was shocked at the posters all over and my disgust boiled over. I asked about the problem and was told that in Israel, lubavitch is run by the crazies. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but when you have friends who correct you with “Ohel” when you ask if the trip they’re making is to the “Kever”, you can’t help but wonder where they stand.
Menachem,
It’s cute the way Lubavitchers twist themselves into pretzels justifying their long-departed Rebbe as Mashiach, then complain that’s all the Snags want to talk about. If it’s really not such a big deal, please answer the following yes-or-no question, which you have refused to do so far:
Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach?
LOL @ Besalel.
Whatever religion you practice is not even SIMILAR to Judaism if you believe the things you wrote, or even if you wrote them without believing in them. Next time you are about to drink wine, pour it out please.
I find it fascinating how 300 years since the Baal Shem Tov, some Litvaks still can’t get over Lubavitch.
I grew up in a Litvishe environment yet I have come around to appreciate the Gadlus of the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ”ל. Honestly, there is nothing like learning a Rashi Sicha, there is nothing like it. There is no Rosh Yeshiva or Rebbe like the Lubavitcher זצ”ל.
Interestingly enough, my first introduction to Likutei Sichos was while I was learning in Ponovezh. Stam L’hoir.It’s fascinating that many on this thread ‘pasken’ that Moshiach can only be from the living. How then do you explain the Gemorah in Sanhedrin אם מאותן שחיין … היינו רבינו….
I am not saying that anyone should or shouldn’t believe in this concept, but if you are a frum Yid, how do you learn this גמרא?@ AAQ “rejection of Chabad by other groups is not based on recent events, it was there when L Rebbe Z’L was alive”
Totally not the case, when the rebbe sat shiva for his rebbetzin 100s of mainstream chasidisher rebbehs showed up to be menachem ovel.
With the previous Rebbes there was always interaction with Chabad, the problem is 85% of chabad is tzugerkimminer, not chasidim like Reb Mendel Futufas. reb Yoel Kahn etc.Moshe kapoyer-It’s a machlokes in the Gemara, and most rishonim don’t pasken like that tzad of the Gemara. For a more detailed explanation, see “The Rebbe, the Messiah and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference,” by David Berger
If you have a problem with Lubavitch for reasons of Haskofo, do yourself a favor and make a neder al daas rabim that you will never eat or knowingly benefit from any Lubavitch organization so you will not chas vesholom be nicshal.
For example, if stuck at an airport, or on bushiness in China don’t accept any food from a shliach.
If imprisoned, don’t accept any services from Aleph.
Make sure you dont buy any kosher products which had any ingredients from a Lubavitcher.@Magdiel I know you are joking, considering the vast amount of reliance that the kashrus industry has on Chabad, but I know of Roshei Yeshivos that won’t drink wine with a Lubavitch Rav HaMachshir, and many more who would rather daven b’yechidus than in a Beis Chabad.
That being said, I hold of the tzad that if you can see that a person looks and talks like a Yiras HaShem, you can rely on them for things in times of necessity. So I’m not going to interrogate every Shaliach to see if they hang a picture of a man up on the Mizrach Vant, I’m just going to assume that they are frum.
All that aside, just because the frum oilom has major issues with Lubavitch haskofo doesn’t mean we hold of them as not frum.
@yeshivaguy 45. its not a machlokes, the gemara is just saying “”If Moshiach is from those who are alive now, [then] surely he is Rabbeinu Hakadosh [Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi], who suffers sicknesses and is an absolute saint . . . If he is from those who have already died, [then] he is Daniel, the delightful one, who was condemned to suffer in the lions’ den and was an absolute saint” (rashi)
see the kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach
In-depth insights into the sugia of Moshiach min hamaisim from chazal and rishonim
(with haskamos from r’ yitzchok breitowitz, and others)I love how chabad imagines itself immune to criticism because it situated itself all over the world.
Living in places without a frum community is itself questionable. It does nothing to legitimize a movement, even if frum people avail themselves of those resources when necessary.
I regard stam Lubavitch wine as stam yeinom, given the amount of people who pray to their rebbe and/or ascribe any sort of divinity to him. Same with shechitah.
I personally would only daven in chabad shuls where i know the rov and the people who daven there do not have these issues. Otherwise I’d rather daven beyechidus, because davening to a rebbe is not davening, and such people wouldn’t count for a minyan regardless.
If the only issue they have is messianism, that would not disqualify them for anything, but i have a hard time imagining a messianic who doesn’t believe in atzmus-guf ideology or praying to their rebbe. But if such people exist, I’d eat their meat and drink their wine, and daven with them while holding my nose at their narrishkeit.
5ish I am afraid you are not aware of how far outside machane yisroel the lubavitch have fallen. Those few who would permit their children to marry lubavitch are dwindling. Fewer and fewer other yidden would daven in chabad institutions. This is happening across all streams of Judaism. I don’t think I’ve agreed with a single post avira has ever posted on cr but I ageee with everything he wrote here. Crown Heights, we have a problem.
Besalad:
Interesting how when visiting the Tzion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Zatzal, Lubavitchers are now a minority there. There are all streams of Yidden from Yeshivish/Litvish to every type of Chusid and Sfardi. Facts on the ground show that your claims are way offThe fascination that some people have with Chabad is that on the one hand they help non frum yidden across the globe come closer to yiddishkeit, and appear to be makpid in shmiras hamitzvos in an uncompromising way. However on the other hand they tend to not learn the same seforim the rest of klal yisroel do, many pray to a being other than the Aibishter, and they try to avoid mixing with other frum yidden in more in town communities. I’m not convinced the younger generations of Chabad have the same devotion to yiddishkeit as the older generation does and I fear all we will be left with is a movement devoted to the Rebbe z’l with Torah and mitzvos falling by the way side.
If you are a chabadnik reading this, I implore you to follow the ways of the Chabad chasidim of pre 1980s, return to the fire of uncompromising shemiras hamitzvos which you were famous for in Russia. Asei lecho Rav, and don’t allow these fringe crack pots to devastate a movement that is one of the jewels of klal yisroel. Please please return, dust yourselves down, and return to your rightful places.the fact that a major part of Klal Yisroel don’t realize the dangers and pitfalls of accepting Lubavich’s views and thinking that they are a great movement is by and large a matter of Lubavich propaganda, and they are experts at that. It was the Lubavicher rebbe himself who said חזקה לתעמולה שאינה חוזרת ריקם.
The answer to the OP is that, no, it’s not a common discussion among Litvaks.
The simplest explanation for why it’s a popular discussion on the CR is because it’s controversial, with passionate opinions on both sides, and that’s what generates interest and responses on the CR
Moshe kapoyer: many people who reject modern lubavitch recognize the gadlus is rabbi schneerson. There is no stira.
“Why are people so obsessed with this?”
The issue even has it’s own wikipedia page!
Sorry, no links
In my ignorant open-minded not-so-frum opinion its controversial because if it was an “official” position that the Rebbe is the mashiach it would cause Lubavitch to become a new splinter religion like one of many splinter groups that have their origins in Judaism. (See Besalel’s comment.)
The biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is accepting “you know who” as the messiah. As a Jew who grew up among way too many Christians, when religion came up, I was often asked about this. They could not understand that ‘he’ had no place in our religion nor my headspace.
Between the different groups within Judaism today the major differences are all generally based on religious practices not theology.I’ve only seen the topic discussed when Chabad is brought up, not just as a casual conversation.
But I was regretfully warned off of Chabad growing up because of it. I went to a shabbos dinner once at the request of a friend but that was my only involvement. I heard various comments from people I personally respected (not really frum but religiously knowledgable individuals) like, “what’s the closest religion to Judaism that’s not Judaism? -Lubavitch” and “they aren’t really Jewish due to their belief in the Rebbe as Moshiach.” Having no personal experience with or understanding of the group myself, I had no way to evaluate these statements on my own (this predated wikipedia). Recently I’ve been feeling unfulfilled, looking for more religiously (hence me hanging out in the CR), and searching for a new “Jewish home.” Very recently I realized that Chabad checks all of the boxes I have been looking for so I plan to really explore what they offer. There are limited choices for observant Jewish experiences where I live and I am quite thankful for the opportunities they provide.SACT5,
“In my ignorant open-minded not-so-frum opinion its controversial because if it was an “official” position that the Rebbe is the mashiach it would cause Lubavitch to become a new splinter religion like one of many splinter groups that have their origins in Judaism.”
The belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, assuming it’s the traditional Jewish definition of Moshiach, in of itself would not cause the formation of a new religion. Changing the definition of Moshiach to deify the Lubavitcher Rebbe would, as would any abrogation of Torah and mitzvos.
“The biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is accepting “you know who” as the messiah.”
It goes way beyond that. They worship him as a god. They conceive of their deity as a trinity. They see the Torah as superseded, and the covenant between the Jewish people and Hashem as abrogated in favor of believers in their deity.
“Between the different groups within Judaism today the major differences are all generally based on religious practices not theology.”
This is generally true when referring to Orthodox Judaism, though there are some minor theological differences at times. The debates in these Chabad threads are largely theological, which may be why they’re so dramatic. When referring to non-Orthodox Jewish movements, however, there are absolutely major theological differences.
“Very recently I realized that Chabad checks all of the boxes I have been looking for so I plan to really explore what they offer. There are limited choices for observant Jewish experiences where I live and I am quite thankful for the opportunities they provide.”
Kol hakavod! May you have much hatzlacha and bracha on your journey.
Menachem,
So once again after another round of playing the victim, you’re still refusing to answer a straightforward yes-or-no question:
Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach?
This topic has been settled. Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach is an in depth analysis on what Chazal said about Moshiach coming from the dead. It’s a free download. It was common belief among Chazal Moshiach could come from the dead and Rambam didn’t rule it out l’halacha. The sefer has litvishe haskamos. See this short video from a noted talmid Chochom: link removed
If mashiach-from-the-dead really is possible, then why did NOBODY in Chabad / Lubavich believe in mashiach-from-the-dead when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was still alive and healthy?
I challenge you to find even ONE Lubavicher who said, when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was still alive and healthy, that mashiach-from-the-dead is possible.
You cannot find any, because there never were any. Not even one.
If was only **** AFTER **** Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson became sick and died that Chabad / Lubavich suddenly decided to believe in mashiach-from-the-dead.
Gadolhadofi, I can’t speak for Menachem, but as a Lubavitcher chossid I can tell you that, yes, it is in the realm of possibility that someone besides for one of the rabbeim will be moshiach.
But I would like to turn the question over to you- is it in your realm of possibility that the libations rebbe can be moshiach, or do you refuse to answer this straightforward question?@anyPotatoKugelLeft
Makes me very happy to see a Torah-based kuntres on this matter having been published, bli shum kesher to whatever Chabad chassidim claim to hold as an agenda today (I’m still adamant that it is not at all within Chabad agenda to davka hold the Rebbe as mashiach in the manner that has been a subject for such violent discussions over the past few decades), I’m happy that a topic that is a subject of such division has been dealt with in a Torah-true way.I’m now waiting for someone to make such a kuntres regarding sleeping in the sukkah (I thought of doing so myself in a brief manner, but haven’t found the time for it). Oh no…did I just revitalize the flame in this thread that has nearly died down? whoopsiedo.
I love it how people are saying it is hypocritical to criticize Chabad but to eat their stuff when you travel. No. That’s not how it works. Just because someone does one nice thing that doesn’t mean you get to get a free pass on something else that is wrong. The problem I have with Chabad is that you look at yourselves as the chosen people within the Chosen People, which is within your rights to do so but it’s just very delusional. Chabad is small compared to other chassidusin plus they had a lot of gedoilim not supporting some things that they did. Satmar and Ger are much bigger and they don’t pretend that their mehalech is the only one…
Also Chabad tolerates even the worst ppl just because they were born Jews. People like Lapid who our gedoilim (like Rav Shteinman ZATZAL) have said Lapid yemach shemo but if you speak like to a lubavitcher he’ll say how DARE you say that on another Jew…
Tolerating evil is tantamount to supporting it, and by refusing to declare the left-wing liberal secular Jews (both here and in EY) as enemies of Klal Yisroel, Chabad has lost its credibility IMO. It’s like bringing in the Trojan horse that opens the door for our enemies to damage us Chas V’Shalom.
Also if you really think Moshiach does not necessarily have to come from the living, why is it not the Baal Shem Tov? Or the Rambam?
Chabad changed so much after gimmel Tammuz… Just look at the matzav of tznius in Crown Heights these days! It’s mamash shocking even to people who grew up there and moved to other Chabad communities (I heard this from a cousin of mine who grew up there).
Credit is due that Chabad did help out to save Russian Jews stay frum and they will obviously get a lot of schar for all that work. But it does not cancel out some other crazy stuff that goes on
@741 It is against the realm of possibility that the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be Moshiach.
I am basing this in the fact that there’s never any discussion about a dead person being Moshiach before 1996. The Gemaras and ma’amoros that have been brought down are all re-interpretations by Chabadskers. Multiple Gedolim, and pretty much any Rebbi I ever asked has confirmed this, that it is not part of Yiddishkeit that Moshiach has already died.
There’s a famous story ( I don’t recall who it’s about). In the Alter Heim, a Rosh Yeshiva (or Rebbe) was on a train with his Talmidim/Chassidim and the bachurim were approached by a missionary. At first they humored him, answering all of his questions easily, but he finally stumped them by asking “Your Rabbis were mistaken about Bar Kochba, who’s to say they weren’t mistaken about Yoshke?” The Rov finally approached him and said “What made the Chachamim realize that Bar Kochba wasn’t Moshiach?” “Well, he died.” “Nu?”
741,
I believe you’re the first self-identified Lubavitcher chasid to admit on this forum, “that, yes, it is in the realm of possibility that someone besides for one of the rabbeim will be moshiach”. Menachem appears to be highly allergic to this question.
If it is possible for Mashiach to come from those no longer alive, there are much worthier candidates than the Rebbe that Chabad is still fixated on, a full generation after his passing. Starting with Dovid Hamelech.
What words are forbidden to utter in the bathhouse? Some years ago, I think while the Rebbe was still alive, I heard some Lubavitcher Chasidim having a conversation in the mikve changing room. When referring to their Rebbe, they referred to him as the “boss”. The would not utter the word “Rebbe” there.
edited
For 20 years, I fought against “Jews For J____” (with haskamahs from prominent Orthodox Rabbis) and lots of mesiras nefesh.
The differences between Chabad / Lubavich and “Jews For J____” are much smaller than most people realize, and the number of similarities between Chabad / Lubavich and “Jews For J____” are much more than most people realize.
You see dofi, you are just the same as Menachem and evading the question.
I didn’t say that you have to believe that any of the Lubavitcher rabbeim are gonna be moshiach, all I asked was is it in the realm of possibility, or in other words- when moshiach come, if it ends up being one of the Lubavitcher rabbeim, will you accept him as moshiach.
It’s a yes or no answer, you don’t have delve into if there are more qualified people or if it makes sense according to Halacha.“I believe you’re the first self-identified Lubavitcher chasid to admit on this forum, “that, yes, it is in the realm of possibility that someone besides for one of the rabbeim will be moshiach””.
I just want to point out that the people that read and contribute to the ywn coffee room is a very niche community and even fewer Lubavitchers that frequent the forum so that doesn’t say much.Part of the reason why Chabad generated so much controversy is because they insist on inserting themselves everywhere. Including where they clearly aren’t wanted .e.g. Other groups don’t advertise their leaders yartzeit in publications read primally by non members and opponents. Of course the message in the publications meant for outsiders is very different from what is said in venues intended for internal consumption….
As a secular historian who got it very right about Chabad put it . In the 1950s Chabad developed an attitude of being accountable only to Rebbe. They were willing to do things over such vehement opposition of other groups that no other Orthodox group would ignore. As time went on this led to serious problems among the movement, most serious of which was the borderline deification of their rebbe.
My father still remembers how in the 1950s some of the elderly Chabad Chasidim who he knew and still respects, strongly denied Chabad would go down the messianic route .
Square root: “if was only **** AFTER **** Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson became sick and died that Chabad / Lubavich suddenly decided to believe in mashiach-from-the-dead.”
No, no. The Rebbe spoke about Moshiach min hameisim on plenty of occasions, printed in Likkutei Sichos; This comment was made in ignirsnce
741,
I will accept whomever the rest of Klal Yisrael accepts as Mashiach. I do not believe it’s in the realm of possibility that it will be any of the Lubavitcher Rabbeim, zt”l.
Menachem, litvishe gedolim did not charge neo Lubavitch with being frei. Their problem was with the ideologies of god in a body, praying to a rebbe, deviations in halacha, and other things. The Lubavitcher rebbe definitely stressed tznius, kedushah, being separate from goyim, etc…it wasn’t a freikeit issue.
But while we’re on the subject, due to the amount of baalei teshuva and gerim of various degrees of observance, chabad has been affected by the outside world more than other groups, resulting in communal issues in kedushah inyanim and other things understood by the term freikeit.
As for being antizionist, the rashab was just as antizionist as satmar, but the last Lubavitcher rebbe changed the stance from antizionism to non Zionism. However, some of his positions can be seen as being sympathetic to the state, such as refusing to give back land no matter what. He also was much more open to dealing with the government than others, which is not necessarily zionistic, but when you put it together with the “love all jews and all jews are great no matter how sinful and heretical…”, It does sound like mizrachi’s attitude to an extent.
Yechi,
Did any Lubavitcher believe that before the rebbe passed away?
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