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Pain is nessesary, suffering is optional.
Are you referring to the menorah thread?
Chabadshlucha – I just read this thread for the first time. I read your OP, and skimmed through the answers.
It seems to me that many of the posters may have been negating the validity of the question. However, I heard the same idea that I think he (and you) are expressing from a well-known Talmid Chacham.
Basically, there are many reasons that can be given for suffering (many of which were given in above posts, I think). These reasons have to do with why it is good for us. But we are still left with the question: Why did Hashem create a system in which we can only gain those things through suffering? Hashem created the rules of (human)nature – He could have created those rules differently in the first place!
The answer is that there is no answer that we can possibly understand, since we ourselves are also within the system, so we can only answer questions from within the system – we can’t answer questions that precede the system (and therefore are outside the system).
In terms of how to satisfy the man, you can tell him this and then add: If you need to take your infant to get shots, how can you explain to an infant why you are handing him over to someone who is going to torture him and stick needles in him if you love him?
I think your last paragraph is better than your second-to-last paragraph.
That is, I’m unsure of this “system” concept, but the notion that there
are things beyond our understanding is fine.LU,
The Chazon Ish ones explained when asked about the Holocaust – it is as if an ignorant peasant who walks into a hospitals operating room and sees a team of doctors operating heart surgery – he starts shouting “murderers savages”! Why are you cutting up that person’s body etc! In his ignoramus mind he can not see the big picture’ that is is all for the sake of saving the persons life.Same is with the Holocaust, we are so far from seeing the big picture that all we see is in hindsight… There will be day when we will all agree and clearly see how each and every action was for the good.
But we don’t put ignorant peasants in hospital operating rooms to observe.
CS,
“the source is a medrash which says chet etz hadaas was a set up ”Where exactly is the Midrash? I think there are many diff pshatim how to interpret the Midrash, and as I have posted earlier (i will re-post)
Even the Chabad Seforim do not say so, at least the Alte Rebbe in Torah Ohr, he says the following in Parshas Breshis he explains the issue how the “Birur Ra” would have been without the Chet (the issue in concern is how is there an inyan of “birur Nitzozos/Klipos without Chet in the world)” :
“. וע”ד שהיה בזמן שבהמ”ק היה קיים שהרי ארז”ל לא גלו ישראל אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים דהיינו להעלות נצוצות ומה היה נעשה אם לא חטאו ולא היו גולים. אלא ע”כ צ”ל שאז היו נכללים הנצוצות ממילא כנר בפני האבוקה כמו נעמה העמונית וכן כל העמים באו לשמוע חכמת שלמה וכמ”ש במלכת שבא כו’. והיינו לפי שאז היה אבוקה גדולה עד”מ ע”כ ממילא מתכללים בה הנצוצות ואם היה נמשך בהמ”ק כן יותר היו כולם מתבררים עד”ז וכמ”ש לע”ל (צפניה ג’) אז אהפוך אל עמים שפה ברורה כו’. והלכו גוים לאורך כו’.
וכך היה ענין האדם כשלא היה חוטא שהיה כולו קדוש כי גם גופו נלקח ממקום המזבח וממנו נעשו רמ”ח אבריו בלול בשמן כו’ והיה עומד בג”ע ושם היה מוסיף אורות וממילא היו הקליפות כלים ע”י שהיו הנצוצי קדושה כלים מהם אבל הדבר היה שלא ע”י מלחמה כו’. משא”כ אחר שחטא אזי צ”ל הבירורים ע”י עבודה ומלחמה שעת צלותא שעת קרבא כנ”ל וצריך לירד אל מקום הקליפות ושם יבררם וזהו את האדמה אשר לקח משם
The above clearly indicates that the world was original meant to be without the Chet of the Etz haDaas…
In any case, they say the pshat is the other way around that even in the case of מיתה it was still the act of man that instigated it. See sefer עקידה vaYeshev 28.
It basically seems like another version of the ידיעה ובחירה question as well.
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