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Anyone reading these comments should know that the zionist agenda, especiall the one pushed by so-called dati-leumi, i specifically trying to destroy real Judaism by redefining Jewish identity into a “nation like all the nations”. Zionism is not Torah. IDF is not Torah. Catholocism isn’t Torah.
Don’t take my word or the word of the honest commentators here. Go and ask our gedolim, look at literally every statment by every gadol, from HaRav Ovadia Yosef, HaRav Elyashiv, Chazon Ish, Chaim Brisker, Steipler Geon, Belzer Rav, Baba Sali, HaRav Shmuel Wosner, Satmar Rebbe, Shomrei Emunim Rebbe, Rav Zonnenfeld, Rav Elchonon Wasserman. Read the holy words of the founders of Agudas Yisroel and the Gedolim that guided it after the evil zionist state was founded in ’48. Read the book “Bayos Hazman” from Harav Reuven Grazovsky, another Aguda leader, in his 1960 book about how strong jews must be in fighting 100% agasint the zionist state.
The Torah is clear that we Jews should have nothing to do with the zionist state nor with its evil army of death. Ask any gadol.
Bayit > Totally separate from every Taava
this seems like a haredi version of helicopter parenting (of which I am also guilty). Where does it say in the Torah that Hashem promises us to guarantee any encounter with yetzer or hara or any other challenge in life? Jews encountered all kind of problems over generations. True, you are not supposed to go and create problem for yourself, but army service is not entertainment. It would seem that a person who goes to serve for a right reason will be granted same protection as all other shluchei mitzzva and mesiras nefesh.
> So in addition to the learning and tehillim perhaps the Hareidi community can think what can they do to lift up the morale. Women in Beitar provide shabbos good for families whose husband’s are off fighting, for example.
this is a great idea. I don’t want to disregard this at all, but one logical extension would be for the learners to learn temporarily at their own expense and donate (not theirs, but) government subsidies to families of chayalim? I think this is one of the suggestions that is being imposed from outside, but why not make it a nedava instead?
@Always Ask Questions,
Yes, my experience was pretty similar Baruch Hashem.
I don’t have any other specific opinions re the letters Rav Pfeffer brings from gedolim. I’ll just note that Rav Pfeffer is a major talmid chacham and serves as a dayan on Rav Asher Weiss’ Beis Din.
somejew, you bring an impressive list. Several issues with that:
(1) there are other T’Ch that had different opinions. They may be of lower stature, in your opinion, or the list might be shorter, but making a list of T’Ch and omitting some of them makes you into an unreliable witness. Maybe you are doing it in the heat of the argument, but this is really a non-Torah attitude(2) you might simply be dismissing those who disagree as not T’Ch. Look up “no true scotsman” phenomenon and get back to us
(3) you need to understand in detail what exactly those T’Ch were holding and against what. Pre-medina and earlier years in Israel had very ideological and anti-religious people involved. Currently, most non-religious Israelis are stam non-religious rather than ideological, and there are so many religious people involved in Israeli politics and government that issues might be very different.
@always_ask_questions
In normal conversation, I would ask you to quote a Gadol who claims that there is some Jewish goal of a political state (chas v’shalom), but my sens is that you will dodge even that simple request because otherwise you could have simply done it in your last response. If I pushed you, you would probably quote the known kofer who “kasherd” the zionist movement that Rav Elchonon Wasserman ztz”l said clearly is a “rasha gamur”.You are correct that our Holy Torah is guilty of the “no true scotsman” angle as the Torah is our starting point of what is true. Anything that is not Torah is not true and anyone who breaks away from our mesora is a kofer and certainly not a “Gadol b’Yisroel”.
Regarding zionism today, nothing has changed. Anyone who hates arab terrorists more than IDF leaders is guilty of the heresy of zionism. The Torah teaches that we must hate rashayim with “tachlis ha’sina”, and this is true for anyone who is mechalel shabbos befarhesiyah including a tinok sh’nishaba. Framing kefira as a “specific strand of a specific ideology” is just another mental trick to join ranks with those who want to rebel against Hashem and His Torah.
Somejew, in your list of supposedly anti-Zionist Rabbis, many of these Rabbis were not anti-Zionists at all. Rav Ovadia Yosef was the Chief Sephardic Rabbi employed by the Israeli government, as is his son, Rabbi Yitchok Yosef. Sephardim and Eidus Hamizrach are generally the most pro-Zionist from the frum world. Perhaps Rabbi Ovadia Yosef spoke against the secular Zionists, I dont know but I could see that he would, but he was not against Zionism.
The Baba Sali was not an anti-Zionist.
The Belze Rebbe has his people within the Zionist government and always says to vote in the elections.
While the majority of Ahkenazi rabbonim were against the founding of the State of Israel (primarily because the founders were anti-religious, secular atheists), when the State became a reality they grudgingly accepted it and the majority of Chareidi Ashkenazi rabbonim shitta is like the Belze Rebbe, the Viznitze Rebbes in Israel (not Monsey), and the majority of the rabbonim in the Yeshivishe world which is thay while they don’t support a secular Stateand secular laws, nor do they want their bucharim in the army, they vote in the elections and they support Israel winning over the terrorists.
the rejection of the ideology called “zionism” is a rejection of the redefintion of judaism from a religion with the single focus being keeping mitzvos into a fake ethnicity or “ethnoreligion” that considers complete kofrim as part of “klal yisroel”. Part of this redefeinition is tied into a fake “nationalistic” identity that gives importance to land and/or government as an important or even key part to that fake Judaism.
It is true that all Gedolim reject the murderous acts of terrorists, whether zionist terrorist or muslim terrorists. It is also true that all Gedolim reject the idea that there is any intrinc value to the zionist state or the zionist army for a Jewish person.
As Rav Yosef shlit”a recently said, if the zionists threaten our yiddishkeit we will simply leave to a different galus.
There is nothin “jewish” about the zionist state. The erliche aguda and erliche shasniks are simply making their best of the evil wars and actions of the erev rav that controls Palestine. That is the only reason any of them vote, as per their own explicit statments. No one wishes the zionist state would countinue as it is the greatest chilul Hashem in Jewish histroy, that a whole “nation” of Jews rose up against Hashem with guns, H”y. And, some are still cheering them on as they sacrifice more jewish boys every day for their evil political wars.
Somejew, you are simply inviting a continuous lashon hara asking me for names, so I am not going to post them, as they were posted here repeatedly.
And you are debating as if this is MSNBC debate between two sides, each of them trying to fool another. This is totally treif. Don’t throw around half-truths and expect others to contribute. If you want to make a serious argument, then bring both sides and explain why you think one position is preferred to others.
As philosopher points out, many of quoted rabonim had non-extreme positions. Maybe we need to define the terms better. Opposing zionist emigration before WW1 is different from opposing it before WW2 and agreeing to vote v. finding value in a state or promoting that state, etc.
For example, one famous Rav who supported Mizrachi movement in general, harshly rebuked the US rabbinical organization that distributed mizrachi writings about how to celebrate yom haatzmaut, etc – saying that people should not confuse what comes from a political organization with rabbinical guidance.
philosopher, Belzer rebbe was also regretful of his pre-war advice to stay in Europe … so, it seems that he recognized value of zionist enterprise post facto.
somejewiknow: Yasher Koach for explaining it so well.
Always, yes, many, perhaps even most, of the Ashkenazi rabbonim recognized that the reality of Zionism is not bad for frum Jews. Yes, secular Zionism has led many Jews astray, but no one who lives in reality can say that Zionism is the work of the Satan and such time of silly talk.
Anyone who wastes time trying to argue with somejewiknow is just wasting his time. This statement of his should be enough to prove to anyone that he is a crackpot beyond repair
“Anyone who hates arab terrorists more than IDF leaders is guilty of the heresy of zionism.”
Nuff said
philosopher> … Ashkenazi rabbonim recognized that the reality of Zionism is not bad for frum Jews. Yes, secular Zionism has led many Jews astray
you always need to consider the alternative – not ideal, but realistic one. Same Jews who were “led astray by Z” would have alternatively assimilated in America; would have died in Germany; or became communism victims or, worse, propagators, in USSR. At least, grandchildren of Zionists have a high chance to be Jewish, live among Jews, and be exposed to observant Jews (see kiruv thread :), but more importantly, their chances of teshuva highly depend on what they see among religious Jews they observe.
“The Torah is clear that we Jews should have nothing to do with the zionist state nor with its evil army of death. Ask any gadol…..”
Well, the Slabodka Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch, Shlita, who also is a member of Degel Hatorah’s Council of Gadolim, was asked that question several days ago and his answer was that those yungerleit who are not learning in yeshiva SHOULD enlist in the IDF. His comments echo those of several other chashuvah rabbonim with respect to those who are not shteiging should be helping to defend the state in whatever way they can, including serving in the IDF.
Gadol: I very much doubt that is an accurate rendition of what Rav Hirsch shlita indicated. Nevertheless, even if it were, his Talmudic who aren’t learning may follow that advice. Whereas, the talmidim of the Gedolei Yisroel shlita that strongly state that even those not learning full time should still not serve, will follow that advice not to serve.
@Rocky, a Jewish kofer demands our “tachlis ha sinah”, the utmost hatred. That means it is by definition impossible for an erliche yid to hate an arab terrorist more than that.
@somejewiknow
i am holding myself back the day before yom kippur from shaming or name calling. But there are many gedolim that held of zionism and a jewish state. The bigger issue was “secularism” and the idea that one can throw off the torah. Its somehwat combined with zionism but not necessaily and the same is true for neologs or anyone that lessens yiddishkiet. The idea of a jewish state though was held by mnay gedlom. Lets start with the list.
1) R kook was not a fringe gadol. He was totally mainstream. the Chafetz chaim walked out of the convention in 1924 when R Kook was shamed and refsued to come back. R Kook also helped him proof read his own sefarim after R Kook shver was nifter. I know you’ll find some one line zinger where the chafetz chaim was upset at R Kook. Overall he held him in high esteem . The Alfandri zl who was a big mekubal in Yerushlaim said that the reaon the chafetz chaim didn’t make it to EY was because he would have made sholom between R Kook and R sonnenfeld. Had that happened moshaich would have come. This is a FACT and not an opinion. Aside for the C Chaim, R Isser Zalman, R Tzvi pesach Frank and many others held of R kook. Its no secret that R Elyashiv and R shloma zalamn learned by him. Even R Sonnenfeld while putting him in cherem , also sat next to him and I heard that from eyewitnesses who said both attended his parents chasna and were talking to each other. So for you to call him “kook” is a chutzpah and you need to teshiva before YK.
2) All the Ryzhna rebas held of a medina. The sadygura said hallel yom hatzmut. The shtefensht who was the rebbe of the ribnitza and skulna rebbe zl has a pic of Hertzel on his wall.
3) the punvitcha rav had all ofn them by the even hapina of the yeshiva, said haellel and raised the flag. R lazer yudel also did
4) R sharga fevel mendlevoitch ZL made bracha when the Medina was allowed to formed.Zionism according to many is yes judaism. We agree that secularism isn’t
@gadolhadorah
the only source for that nonsense is the person who has dedicated his life to pushing jewish into the avoda zureh called “nachal charedi”I would be shocked if HaRav Hirsh actually said those things, and if true, G-d forbid, I would be even more shocked if he wouldn’t be put into cherem for such a evil suggestion by the other Gedolim of our generation
Chaim > The Alfandri zl who was a big mekubal in Yerushlaim said that the reaon the chafetz chaim didn’t make it to EY was because he would have made sholom between R Kook and R sonnenfeld. Had that happened moshaich would have come.
The way I read this in the (haredi Israeli) sefer, Chofetz Chaim held a more pessimistic (realitsic?): if I go first to old yishuv, then in R Kook they’ll not learn Mishna Berura, if I go first to R Kook, then in old yishuv they’ll not learn Mishna Berura. So, it is better to have Mishna Berura in Israel than me in person. Irocnically, I bought this book near rechov Chofetz Chaim in Petach-Tikva that was, I believe, named for the apartment already bought for him.
Note that Ch.Ch posted a short letter in a newspaper in Poland at a time – to respond to many letters I received, I am not going to EY this year.
R Aron Lieb Z’l was very- supportive of nachal charedi. No its not an avoda zara. Noone is saying it kodesh kodshim. But you need to stop belittling other jews who you disagree with. When you hear R Asher Weiss speak about shailas he gets from some of these IDF soilders there is no way you can say that they are all just looking to throw off the yoke and shmad. Listen to the question from the wounded soilder missing hands who wants top put on teflin. Go look at soldiers making a syuim in gaza or daveing with a bren like you & I never davened. Its easy to be a kanoi but the facts are that there are mnay ehrlicah soldiers. And yes maybe some people do belong there if they7 can’t learn. Even if you disagree , how do you hvae the chutzpah to say those that do join or shektazim? Its an outright lie and mitzai shem ra.
Kook was a gadol before he went off the derech.
You can see the handwritten letter online by Rav Elchonon Wasserman ztz”l who called him a “rushe gumir”.
You might be correct that the chofetz chaim might have been able to arouse kook to do tshiva and bring moshiach.
everything else you have is, as least in the way you frame it, complete garbage and masis umadiach you push the yidden away from Torah and towards the false moshiach of zionism. You distort the actions of Gedolim and promote lies.If I am wrong, point to any published work by any Gadol that goes against anything I have written. (And, I don’t mean hearsay stories by balei batim)
you are the same as a shatz”nik.
@chaim87
Rav Shteinaman zatzal was adamant about the evils of the IDF and specifically “Nachal Chareidi”.Do you care about the truth? Do you care about Rav Shteinaman really said, or are you just looking for any way to support your idol and send your children off to die for it?
Rav Shteinaman zatzal said that his only support for Nachal Charedi was for those evil bucherim who were already no longer part of klal yisroel, mechalile shabbos b’farhesia, and his support was simply in order to rescue out Jewish neighborhoods from their bad influence with no better alternative:
Don Segal sent a letter to R. Aharon Leib Shteinman inquiring about rumors that he supported Nachal Chareidi.
In response, R. Shteinman wrote back as follows:
לכ׳ ידידי הגאון והצדיק ר׳ דן סגל הי״ו
נעימות בימינו נצח.היות ששמע קול גדול ולא יסף כאילו אני תומך בענין נחל חרדי, שבחורים שהם חלשים בלמוד התורה או ביראת שמים טוב להם להיות שם וכמובן שדבר זה לא עולה על הדעת כלל. מה שהי׳ מדובר בהתחלה הוא שבחורים שמחללי שבת ועוברים על עוד חייבי כריתות ממש ואביו רוצה להצילו ולהציל את הרחוב מלהזיקם שאין לנו כח למענו, אבל ודאי זה עון לא יכופר אם שמסיר או שמשתדל באיזה צורה שהיא וגורם למי שאינו מחלל שבת ועוד חייבי כריתות להמצא שם.
ואני נמנע מלהשיב בדרך כלל בענין זה כי דרך חלק מאנשים מאלה הנחשבים לחרדים לדבר השי״ת לפרש כל דבר בכל מיני פשטלך ונהנים לתת דופי באנשים, ה׳ יכפר בעדם כי אולי כונתם לשמים אבל היות שכ״ג שידוע לי שאינו ח״ו מהרוצים ליתן דופי אנו כותב לו. יש לקוות להשי״ת שיתרבו לומדי תורה ועובדי השי״ת אשר בזכותם ירחם ה׳ עמו ויגאלנו גאולת עולמים. ידידו מוקירו כרום ערכו, א.ל. שטיינמאן
– excerpted from footnotes in “The Empty Wagon” by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
also this
“The Rosh Yeshiva of Derech HaTorah, went (to R. Shteinman) with a bachur who said he had no taste at all for learning, that he had not been successful in yeshiva, and he wanted to go to the army. “R. Shteinman told him: It is forbidden to go to the army, as they ruin people. The bachur said to him, ‘But today they have a program in the army where you can keep Torah and mitzvos.’ R. Shteinman responded, ‘There is no such thing. People who go to the army always get ruined.’ When the bachur tried to argue with him a bit, R. Shteinman responded forcefully, banged on his table, and said, ‘I guarantee you that if you go to the army, regardless of what program you join, you will return a total goy.’ … The boy recoiled. He gave up his plans and returned to yeshiva.”
– Yated Neeman, Vayigash, 5766, p. 20 as quoted in the book “The Empty Wagon” by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
Regarding the rest of your disgusting comments about me, I never shammed any yid from trying to do a mitzvah. The nebach innocent followers of the idol of zionism might be the only remaining “tinukos shenishba” today, where we can try to expose them a little bit to the real life of Torah to enable them to cast of that evil kefira and rejoin klal yisroel.
I know you have no valid argument against the Torah, but please refrain from straw-manning it.
@somejewiknow: HARAV Kook to you. He always held the same shita and never went off the derech. You bring a proof from one gadol R Elchanon and one alleged line which is not clear iof he said it or not. I am not the liar rather you are because you can’t fathom that there are mnay ways to torah.. You are stuck in a cult. We know the holy chaftez chaim held of him.
No it not a lie that R Isser Zalman Meltzer, & R Tzvi pesach Frank and the Nazir were all colse to him.
No it not a lie that R shlomia zalman and R Elyshaiv learned by him. Would they learn by a “rasha”?Re Zionsim as a whole, we have eyewitness testmiony from people who saw the Rizyna rebas celebrate Yom hatzmut. I heared from an eyewitness who heard R sharga fevil mendleovitch make a bracha on the medina. We all know punvitch raised the flag and said hallel.
You refuse to face the truth when its staring at you in the face. Someone who denies facts, I can’t debate. But I will continue to call you out as being untruthful
Was R Menachem Kasher / author of Torah Shleima/editor of Rogacvhover – mentioned here? Gerer Rebbe sent him to EY in 1920s.
I just saw in Wiki (duh) that he proposed to have 5th cup during seder after Medinat Israel was created, but Rabanut was not interested …I also wonder how much we hear about gedolim positions on political issues – unless they are outspoken about it.
Just a recent example – when masking wars were all rage, there was an impression in the press that all haredim disregard protection .. and then in a year an article that R Zilberstein Z’L is giving a first public shiur with a wide separation and a transparent mehitza between him and talmidim. I am pretty sure this information was not in the media before.> Kook was a gadol before he went off the derech.
> You can see the handwritten letter online by Rav Elchonon Wasserman ztz”l who called him a “rushe gumir”.You got to have pretty serious reasons to consider a gadol to become OTD … Just because another person of the same stature disagreed with him on politics may be too risky, and leaves you no method to analyze disagreements between modern Talmidei Chachamim. At best, you yourself are choosing one Rav v. the other and claim that you are following a gadol; at worst, you are following what you learned from your heder rebbe, an accident of birth rather than a thought-through opinion.
To appreciate the problem, I suggest reading a sefer “making of the gadol” that may not necessarily address this hot issue, but it contains a lot of factual material about R Kamenetsky and others lives – and see if any of the details go against the stereotypes we have. This will help you appreciate how much we really know before making judgments on people.
Without the idf ,now, there is a mass pikuach nefesh.
You have not given ANY OTHER WAY to take away this pikuah nefesh.So, if you cannot find another way to take away the p/n and you do not give a VALID reason not to be drafted in the idf [if they really need you] …. then you are just shofeh damim.
Shofeh damim shel Rabbim !
1. What’s the question? The IDF does not tolerate Chareidim!
If the IDF was run by independent Chareidi Torah leaders who do not have to answer to political pressure, but rather solely to their religious beliefs, then some Chareidim (the ones not learning Torah) would join the IDF.
How many Chareidim came out of the IDF weaker in their religion? Today’s IDF is no place for a Chareidi!
2. 47% of the people who received IDF exemptions are secular. They don’t bother you. Only the Chareidim do?
3. Chareidim don’t need to participate because Hashem watches the Chareidim! If everyone would be Chareidi, Israel would be a lot safer!
Didn’t you learn anything from the Simchas Torah massacre? Did you hear how the terrorists avoided the hold Yeshiva of Tifrach??? How they avoided all the Shomer Shabbos areas almost miraculously?
There is also a valid argument to exclude Haredim: less rationalization by the Arab ISLAM side …
Oy. How arrogant it is to think you don’t have a chiyuv to do BOTH! That’s what the Hesder program was set up for. That’s what tens of thousands of other dati soldiers are doing right now. That’s what hundreds of chareidim are doing right now. You don’t think they consulted with daas torah?
And they bring their sforim with them even into Gaza and learn when they have a moment to spare. These are holy people. They are shomrey torah umitzvos. They take responsibility for all of klal yisroel both with their learning and with their combat service. And aside from the dati leumi who are giving their lives for every Jew, I know dozens of people from the chareidi oilem in Monsey who have been back two and three times when their units were called up. One chosid I know, a chazon with a beautiful voice, went back again to fight in Lebanon a month ago. How come he can figure it out, but people like Hakatan, and ujm and ivory can’t?
Yissochor and zevulun worked because it had the consent of both parties. Is that in place now? Don’t presume to use a framework like that to justify irresponsibility.
And I invite all of those who ‘opt out’ of service to also opt out of services. transportation infrastructure, energy infrastructure, health infrastructure, education and child care subsidies – you know, all of that stuff that is built by and upon the very ideology you imagine to be solely interested in your spiritual demise? How myopic and self centered it is to think that is what they care about, and how hypocritical it is for you to use it, or justify its use, while spitting on the people and the system which provides it to you.
I am happy to see that there has been some positive movement in the chareidi velt on these issues If only there was courage and will among those with influence in the elements of the chariedi oilem that still havent grasped that we are one people to grapple with these truths. I hope it can be found.
Yichusdik: Close to half the DL/RZ soldiers who entered the IDF religious are irreligious by time they’re discharged.
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