Question for Jewish Democrats

“Editing instead of deleting is a favor not an obligation.”

Your complaints are silly, without basis and fortunately quite out of character. 

Joseph, I do not know what you mean to say.

CTL, if you are not willing to put your religious beliefs into secular law at least be consistent. Don’t cry about chesed (and BTW, by definition chesed is something that is not enforceable as it involves going above and beyond), which might not even apply to Noahides. The proof of your hypocrisy is your statement “The fact that abortion and same sex marriage is legal doesn’t mean anyone in the CR will partake; which is why I don’t see these things as a threat” (which is not correct – see Bereisheet Rabba, 26:5 that the Flood came because of this).

Regarding Obamacare, it is another massive Federal boondoggle that will collapse of its own weight. It is not for nothing that the US has a federal system.

Same-sex “marriage” is not enabling. The state gives its stamp of approval by issuing a marriage license. Of course, one could take the libertarian position that the state should get out of the marriage business and treat everyone as an individual. If any two people want to call themselves married that is their business. In any case, where is the tikkun olam here? The same goes for abortion.

I do agree with you though that people should vote for local candidates on the basis of local issues. Who cares what someone’s position is on the Iraq war if he will have no say regarding it? This is also true of a parliamentary system.

Neville ChaimBerlin,

“Because you love CT’s crazy leftist ideas and don’t want to let anyone see the opposition?”

So far, 2scents, anonymous jew, klugeryid, MDG, 1, Avi K, Takes3tomakemangos, lakewhut, and Non Political have all either supported the OP or posted rebuttals to things CTLAWYER has written, so I don’t see this supposed conspiracy to silence “the opposition” (and it’s strange that you view yourself as “the opposition”). Maybe tone down the personal attacks and your posts will go through unedited. On another thread, you declared me to be your enemy because I dared, heaven forbid, to espouse a view that was different from yours. Politics really seem to trigger you. Calm down. Republicans are not your team. Yidden are, like it or not. Even if some of them have political views that don’t align completely with yours.

The fact that you guys have turned it into an actual political discussion proves nothing. The fact remains, this started out as completely personal, non-logical arguments from CTL as he so often does. As usual, they let these through.

Basically, in summary, he is allowed to assert that he has more value as a human being thanks to his wealth. We are not allowed to assert that this isn’t true.

Notice how my posts are getting past moderation and then later being taken down by the 1 mod that has a vendetta against me because he’s in love with CTL? That seems fair to you?

🤣🤣🤣🤣-29

NCB, calm down. Nobody is your enemy. Your post containing personal insults was taken down because personal insults are not allowed, “even” in political discussions. Onoas Devorim is Onoas Devorim. It was let through by mistake.

If that is not something you can abide by, you will have to find a different forum, but frankly, I do not understand why you think it is okay to begin with.

Neville ChaimBerlin,

“CTL immediately responded to this thread by attacking the OP’s intelligence and then calling groups of the country rednecks. He was not censored.”

Maskim that CTLAWYER’s insult in his response to the OP and his later denigration of rural America were not acceptable things to say. Perhaps those posts should have been edited or deleted by the moderators. While they were not censored, they were censured by other posters 🙂

Neville ChaimBerlin,

“It’s much more fun and even productive to just hurt the feeling of everyone you don’t like.”

Sorry, onas devarim is forbidden by the Torah. We can’t pick and choose which mitzvos to follow because we think it’s fun or productive. I don’t care one whit what people may think is obsolete in whatever era. We are Jews, and as the people of Hashem we have a higher standard to uphold. Our Torah does not change with the times. And CTLAWYER doing it first does not make it ok.

As for your point about political discourse, if you admittedly have never tried a more civil tone, then you cannot assert whether respectful dialog is effective or not. I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum, and have had very interesting conversations with them all.

“ I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum”

Must have been vaccinated…

Neville ChaimBerlin,

“By interesting, you mean conversations where both sides end up feeling deep-seated anger, but cover it up in the name of civility as is the custom in the phony world of intellectualism.”

Not every conversation is a debate. And the goal isn’t always to “win.”

“The way you’re looking at this would mean everyone taking a vow of silence for all eternity.”

You don’t seem to be finding me very silent 🙂

“This idea that you can word arguments in this magical, intellectual way that won’t offend anyone and will be healthy for for the world is a total myth that only exists in the upper tier of American society.”

There is way more to human interaction than the extremes of argument and silence. Not every conversation is persuasion-based, and even when attempting to persuade someone, argumentation is not necessarily needed or desirable.

“Most of us (deplorable rednecks who still know how to apply common sense) have gravitated towards the results-based approach like that of Trump (or Ocasio-Cortez on the inverse)”

My Southern bonafides may well exceed yours.

“and away from the pointless approach of Jeb Bush types that seems to be rooted in getting 90-year-olds to think, “hmm, he talks nice… What a nice young man he is…”

Jeb Bush got two terms as Florida governor, and his brother two terms as President. Not shabby for a pointless approach.

“You had to risk offending me just now by responding to my last comment, right? I could have gotten really upset at you for disagreeing and accusing me of a aveira, right? Does that mean you did an issur? No. There is not document or scripture that guarantees a human right to “not be offended.” That would cripple mankind.”

That’s a cop-out that would render the entire concept of onas devarim meaningless. We are not responsible for each and every feeling that someone may theoretically have in response to any statement, but it is forbidden by the Torah to say something intentionally designed or reasonably certain to hurt the feelings of another Jew.

“Not every conversation is a debate. And the goal isn’t always to “win.””
Notice how I never said the word debate or anything synonymous with it in the quote to which this was replying. I’m not sure how you read that as having anything to do with debates or winning.

“Jeb Bush got two terms as Florida governor, and his brother two terms as President. Not shabby for a pointless approach.”
Quite shabby given that they were horrible at what they did and continue to this day to prove that they don’t care (and never cared) about their constituents.

“That’s a cop-out that would render the entire concept of onas devarim meaningless.”
No more meaningless than applying it to anyone who personally offends you with a different opinion. Real men can take it and don’t beg for censorship whenever they can’t take back what they dish out. “Copping-out” would look more like throwing insults out and then hiding behind a wall of like-minded moderators. Am I the one doing that here?

“I do recall CTL posting some time ago about being contacted by someone on YWN for advice on something pertaining to law”

Bingo. There had to be something. I’m glad you’re able to see the bias without being able to see the original comment I made that sparked all of this, which was relatively tame. They’ve since gone back and unblocked a bunch of my more angry comments without unblocking the original, which is cute of them to use their powers in that way.

I’m fine with private sites like YWN and twitter censoring as they see fit, as long as they say why. Eg. people might be censored here for expressing anti-Torah ideas because this is a Jewish site. Just like this rule is out in the open, they should have to disclose of their various other favoritism’s.

1.
“and there’s nothing short of a Stalin that would change the minds of liberal Jews. ”

i’m not so sure even that would change our minds,

note how you couldn’t get a straight answer to your excellent OP “If Stalin promised yeshiva funding, would you still endorse him and vote for him in a primary? ”

@Ubiquitin

I don’t know what could have been more straight than my only reply to the OP
“There were no primaries in the USSR, there was one party.

I would vote against any candidate for public office in a non-theocracy who promised yeshiva funding, or Catholic school funding or any other money for religious education at taxpayers expense, and YES, I oppose school vouchers.”

The OP posed a physical impossibility To vote for a dead non-US citizen who was also a non-member of the Democrat Party in a primary. I pointed out the physical impossibility and clarified that I’d vote against politicians wanting to use public funds for religious education.

“And I bet that had you rewritten your post minus the personal insults instead of complaining about censorship, you could have had your comebacks to CTLAWYER posted already.”

You’re assuming the post was worse than it was. It was abjectly less insulting than nearly everything CTL has written. The mods are trying to lead you to believe it was worse than it was. CTL had claimed that if someone had read his posts from years of being a CR user, they would see how great and accepting he is of other socio-economic classes. Apparently, any dispute of this assertion is a “personal attack.” Theoretically, he worded an argument in such a way that it didn’t break forum rules, but any counterargument would. That would be genius, but I think it’s much more likely that the mods are just biased and bad at their jobs.

Let me try it: I know more about all of these things you guys are talking about on this thread. If you go back and read years of my posts, you would all see how much smarter I am than all of you. (Now, let’s see if they block anyone who tries to dispute me).

So the site was down for about 10 minutes shortly after Neville’s upset which makes it pretty obvious that he had it done out of vengence. I still cant figure out how you pulled it off, and i think it was a bit of an overreaction, but its the only possible explanation for the so called “glitch”. And no doubt he’s going to deny it…

Neville ChaimBerlin,

“CTL had claimed that if someone had read his posts from years of being a CR user, they would see how great and accepting he is of other socio-economic classes.”

I reread his post, and can see how his claims to be “middle class” seem out of touch with what middle class actually means in light of his frequent and casual references to his wealth. And that welcoming increased taxes ignores the fact that such policies can harm others, though, to be fair, I’m guessing he doesn’t favor raising taxes on people with smaller incomes. MDG hit back on those points, but I don’t really see how they insult other people. Can you clarify?

” it pretty obvious that he had it done out of vengence.”
Dang right! And, there’ll be a lot more where that came from if you don’t give in to all of my demands!

“I still cant figure out how you pulled it off”
A simple distributed denial of service attack. You really should look into getting better protection.

I went to a litvish yeshiva
So I know who Stalin was and I know what a yeshiva is.
As to trolling, who cares. Let him troll. It’s just a way of starting a conversation. If the answer is no. Say no and done. If the answer is yes maybe it’s time for some self checking
Who cares if he is trolling

@CTlawyer (old post)
“If he doesn’t like the Dems in control in the northeast move to the flyover zone. I ‘m sure he’ll find the red necks very tolerant of his ilk.”
Seriously? Someone who doesn’t like the Dems’ control may not ask questions? Their only option is to move?

KY

“Who cares if he is trolling”

not me, thats for sure. I enjoy a good troll post almost as much as I enjoy satire (sometimes its hard to tell which is which. Was this OP a troll post or satirically making fun of people who make those kind of arguments I assume the former but I’m not 100% sure)
Its funny I enjoy his posts. This one I chose to ignore. the Last one “voting democrat” was funnier to me so I engaged.

I’m just confused by people who don’t recognize trolling , and give meaning that clearly wasnt there, to a nonsensical post. Again I don’t care about that either, I just find it amusing .

for example when someone says “If the answer is yes ” to a question about “Stalin supporting yeshivos” It is genuinely funny to me. If someone says” I like circles with corners”, then by definition he either doesn’t know what a circle is or doesnt know what a corner is. similarly if someone ponders the possibility of Stalin supporting yeshivos.

I think I’m this case it’s more probable if was actually using it as an extreme. And not as a straight troll.

I agree. It’s an exaggeration to make a point.

Seriously? Someone who doesn’t like the Dems’ control may not ask questions? Their only option is to move?

Participant

That what it sounds like when the “celebrities” talked about moving to Canada after Trump won (which sadly didn’t happen)

Or moving to North Korea, Iran, etc to see what a real dictator is

b) people who vote based only of the issue of Yeshiva funding.

I thought the point was selling out values for a tangible benefit, yeshiva funding being an example.