Question for FuturePotus ❓

I personally don’t think it would be a good idea to share the rav’s name publicly – we don’t even know what the exact shaila was, so it probably wouldn’t be fair to the rav. Additionally, it reduces FuturePOTUS’s privacy.

From FuturePOTUS’s retelling of the psak, the focus of the question asked to the rav was on the fact that the enrollment application and subsequent request to the parent were derided publicly, and the city in which it happened was mentioned. That was not all that was written, however. I found the swipes at a specific institution (whose relevance to a girl’s high school is uncertain) and “klal Yisroel’s” stature to be more problematic than mentioning the city or decrying the incident. No idea whether those additional swipes were included in the shaila, but it wasn’t discussed here, and it seems not.

“I did research the matter and the entire story was completely false. There is no girls’ high school in Lakewood that refuses to take students whose fathers wear blue shirts.”

This is a very big and very common problem in the CR. The OP said :

I responded that due to the type of work I do, I wear blue shirts. I was told (direct quote with no exaggeration): “please keep a white shirt in your car, and when you leave work, you need to put your white shirt on”.

Nobody said she wasn’t accepted for his blue shirt.
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The Mods get many complaints asking us why we posted/didn’t delete things that were never even stated. How much of this argument and name calling is based on things that were NOT actually stated. It is very important, when accusing others of L”H, referencing others posts in a conversation or even just replying, to read carefully and be cognizant of what the poster actually wrote. Perhaps a poster needs correcting, but wouldn’t it make more sense if we actually know what it was he said in the first place?

LU, thanks for standing up for what is right in all of this.

29, you’re dancing between the raindrops. The OP [in the other thread] was not written by the Rashba, and there is no reason to splice his words so carefully. The implication of his post was very clearly as LU has described. Even according to your own interpretation, it’s Avak LH at best, and most probably regular LH (or, as LU points out, Motzi Shem Ra).

As far as the question of how it is permitted to read a LH post in the first place, in my case it happens by accident. I rely on the Mods not to allow LH posts, and for the most part, they do a very good job. If I read LH in a post, I would normally protest. By the time I saw that whole thread, LU and others had done a very good job of this, and there was nothing left to say except, “Look at me! I also don’t like LH!”, so I didn’t get involved.

“The implication of his post was very clearly as LU has described.”

People need to be a lot more careful about what they call “clear”

29, I have a lot of respect for you, based on what I’ve observed from your work in the few years that I’ve been in the CR. In this case, however, I think you are mistaken.

Of course, it is true that posts are often misunderstood, misquoted and conflated. I have even misquoted my own post in the same thread! Certainly, when this happens, it should be pointed out.

In my opinion, however, the particular post under discussion was not such a case. Its meaning and implication were unambiguous, as explained quite clearly by LU above. The distinction between, “They said that if I wear blue shirts they would not accept my daughter,” and “They strongly intimated – in the context of school application – that I should not wear blue shirts, but they stopped short of saying that they wouldn’t accept her if I do,” is specious, especially when the tone (and only possible achievement) of the post is derision of a community.

First, lilmod, I support your effort to keep these boards L”H free and safe for the rest of us. Although I assumed the mods were doing that already (maybe they want to hire you too?) since they are not perfect, or maybe interpreting words in a different way, it is good there is a watch-dog for when things fall thru the cracks.
There are a couple of things here that bothers me though, perhaps you can explain it to me. From all these threads it really seems you know these Halchos well, so maybe I am missing something.
You stated that “the main L”H issue was not the blue shirts and that is not what I was protesting. What I was protesting,…”
If telling over the blue shirt story was not L”H,- afterall, he was retelling an experience that disturbed him, with no names of any school or administrator mentioned (there are lots of schools in that particular city), and had he ended the post there it would have been a legitimate discussion, then why was it ok for you to call this story out as a lie? I could understand if you were doing so to remind everyone that when one hears L”H one is not allowed to believe it, but this you admitted was not L”H. So why not be dan lkaf zechus that this really happened? With all the research you did, you could not possibly have found out about what every principal told every parent. Maybe your sources told you something different because they were talking about official school policy, or something that applied personally to them, but in this parent’s case, it was different? How can you be so sure it was a lie? (I read what you quoted from the chofetz chaim about a rasha, but that would apply to the actual LH statement, not to everything he ever said, no? Or once someone tells L”H even once, it is automatically assumed that everything he ever says is a lie?)
The second issue is one of tochacha. Elsewhere on these boards people have pretty much come to the conclusion that tochacha can only be given if the person knows that his words will be heard and not do more damage. On an anonymous fourm when one does not know the poster or how he will take tochacha, can one give tochacha? Does he not risk that his words will be thrown back at him and lead to more insults and L”H? Granted that when pointing out L”H one is also protecting the listener (or reader, as it may), but what if it backfires on the speaker/writer leading to worse comments? Perhaps it is better to call attention to problematic posts to the mods rather than confront a poster who may not react in the proper way?
These questions are not meant as criticisms, but are halachic questions that have come to mind reading over recent threads, and I am looking for halachic answers, from Lilmod or anyone else who knows these issues better than I do.
Thanks.

Look, 29, I don’t want to belabor the point, but I think you’re right that it’s important to interpret posts properly.
There is a time when schools communicate expectations for students and families associated with their system. Typically, this is during summer vacation in a student handbook or the like.
By (supposedly) mentioning the expectation about shirt colors in the context of application, the implicit message that the school communicated is that wearing the “wrong” short could jeopardize the acceptance of the student.
It seems to me that any other reading of it is a contrivance, concocted, perhaps, in the spirit of Dan Lkaf Zchus, but this was not the intent of the post in question.

Lilmod Ulelamaid: I only saw this thread now, I’ve been offline here for a few days, I apologize for the late response. I’ll mention your request to the Rav tomorrow, but from speaking with him, he doesn’t want his name out there. I’ll mention a few more things about this though. He did see the original post, and read through many of the responses. He is fully versed in Hilchos Lashon Hara (obviously), and gave a full logical reason as to why the post did not constitute an issur l’halacha. What he said fully answers the questions and difficulties you had with the psak. I didn’t post the details online, because as I said on the original thread, it’s not for those who don’t have smicha to debate the psak from someone who does, and as we can all see, even though I left out the details, it still became a massive discussion. However, I can tell from the language of your question here that you have a sincere desire to understand this, so I will forward him your question and leave it for him to respond.

Lilmod, I spoke to the Rav, and he doesn’t want his name out there. (He’s not as into controversial discussions as I am.)

Winnie “Elsewhere on these boards people have pretty much come to the conclusion that tochacha can only be given if the person knows that his words will be heard and not do more damage. On an anonymous fourm when one does not know the poster or how he will take tochacha, can one give tochacha? ”

The Halacha is the opposite. One must give tochacha unless he’s sure he’ll be ignored and the sinner will continue sinning. If he’s unsure how it’ll be taken, he must give tochacha.

FuturePOTUS,

I’ll mention a few more things about this though. He did see the original post, and read through many of the responses.

Thank you for the clarification of this at least.

[He] gave a full logical reason as to why the post did not constitute an issur l’halacha. What he said fully answers the questions and difficulties you had with the psak. I didn’t post the details online, because as I said on the original thread, it’s not for those who don’t have smicha to debate the psak from someone who does

I, for one, don’t want to debate a psak you received, but to understand the reasoning. Unlike many Internet denizens, I can be convinced. 🙂 I understand why you wouldn’t post your rav’s name; I’d personally be upset on his behalf if you did, but I do not understand why you refuse to post the reasoning.

and as we can all see, even though I left out the details, it still became a massive discussion.

I think it became a “massive” (27 posts is massive?) discussion largely because you left out the details.

“When did I ever claim that my “tochacha” has been met with continued sinning? I never made such a claim.”

Sure you did, go back and look.

Halacha is halacha, are you telling Joseph he is wrong? If halacha says to stop if sinning continues, and does not include a disclaimers for others it is not within your right to bend halacha to fit your perception.

BTW, is there s’micha in Hilchos Lashon Hora?

“Agreed. Frankly, it invites skepticism that there was such a psak for this situation.”

I disagree. seeing how quotes get mangled, misquoted, misunderstood and disrespected (sometimes) I would be hesitant to put too much out there.

Syag Lchochma,

I disagree. seeing how quotes get mangled, misquoted, misunderstood and disrespected (sometimes) I would be hesitant to put too much out there.

I can certainly relate to that. I prefer not to share personal psakim that I have gotten from my rav; it just feels wrong. In this case, however, FuturePOTUS declared that a thread I was participating in was among the most ridiculous he had ever seen, stated that “my” position was wrong (he has not directly addressed me, but addressed another poster with a similar, albeit more extreme, position), supported his position by revealing that he asked a shaila and got a psak that clearly answers “all” of my difficulties, but refuses to divulge any of those answers because the CR participants are not worthy of discussing the psak. I don’t feel like I’m being untoward in any way by asking for the reasoning that would allegedly clear up my difficulties. I’m genuinely curious and open to expanding my knowledge of hilchos lashon hara.

Lilmod, you seem too rational a person to have this much of an emotional response to an issue. Why are you so attached to this issue? It seems to be taken too far at this point.

The halacha is that if you give tochacha one person will stop sinning while a thousand others will laugh at you and continue sinning, you must give the tochacha.

“because the CR participants are not worthy of discussing the psak. ”

I don’t think he said or meant that, and I don’t think you think he said or meant that.

im so sorry to make you feel that way! I just thought it was an emotional “outburst”, sounded like frustration talking. Didn’t mean to say you were lying, although presented your way it sounds like I was saying that, but I wasn’t.
So sorry.
I didn’t hear him saying that. And he doesn’t post daily as you may have noticed from an earlier post so I wouldn’t call it ignoring as much as he just has not yet responded.

That’s true, and although he has responded subsequently to my posts,

I meant subsequently to other’s posts.