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It seems generally accepted that it is not tznius for a woman to appear barefoot in front of men that are neither her spouse or husband.
Is a woman who is wearing tights/stockings allowed to be shoeless in front of men?
Is this an issue of halacha or hashkafa/community standards?
It’s not explicitly mentioned in Halachah so it’s solely a communal issue.
Since we only potentially appear shoeless with stockings when we are sitting shiva, I don’t recommend it.
totally pritzuss never look at a woman in tights/stockings without shoes
Ask your LOR or email a reliable Rabbi online.
It seems generally accepted that it is not tznius for a woman to appear barefoot in front of men that are neither her spouse or husband.
Your premise may not be correct. Or rather, it may only be correct in certain communities, in which case any answers that follow would also only apply to those communities.
The Wolf
The bachurim must be bored the last few days before the new zman.
Yep.
it actually is hashkafic I had to ask a shaila about it lately
I live with a community in which it is accepted for frum women to wear socks
but two weeks ago my family took a vacation to greece to a place where there was no frum community at all period
I really hate wearing sock in the summer and prefer to walk around in flip flops
I called 4 rabbis and the first 3 said they couldnt answer it correctly as it was purely hashkafic and up to me
the 4th said it was a problem of lowering my standards and I should play it by ear
in short go by your kehila
but at the end of the day it really boils down to you
tznius is an inside job
“Your premise may not be correct. Or rather, it may only be correct in certain communities, in which case any answers that follow would also only apply to those communities.”
Often Rashi says “makshin Ha’olam”, the world asks. Remember how your rebbi explained this?
That applies here as well.
Often Rashi says “makshin Ha’olam”, the world asks. Remember how your rebbi explained this?
That applies here as well.
I don’t remember. Please elucidate.
The Wolf
Reu: The issue is that the Halachah states that what is Muttar or Assur in this case is determined by what is normally done by the women there (this Pashtus includes both Jews and Goyim).
I always wear sleeves that cover my elbows. But when I go to neighborhoods where women cover the entire arm to the wrist, I dress that way, too so as to a) not stick out like a sore thumb and b) show some derech eretz for the people who live there. It’s a no-brainer to me. If I would really be uncomfortable to dress more like the people in that place, then I would avoid going there.
so it’s solely a communal issue
can’t believe i didn’t catch that… snort :p
“men that are neither her spouse or husband”
So her spouse and her husband are different people?
Yehudayona: I just noticed that today as well.
Yitay: Honestly, no pun was intended.
oomis: What if you were in a community where women only covered to the tops of their elbows? I’ve been in a shul where I saw the wife of the Rav wearing sleeves that only went to the tops of her elbows, with most of the elbow uncovered. Oh, and the Rav is a very widely known and respected Rav. If I posted his name here, probably 90% of the posters would know who he is.
Feif: That doesn’t legitimize how she dressed.
Oh, and I’ve noticed you habitually follow up many of your controversial comments claiming some anonymous rabbi who you claim is famous does whatever you are advocating.
Feif, I would wear sleeves to cover the elbow. I wouldn’t at this point in my life do LESS than I normally do, but in a community where everyone dressed even MORE covered up, so would I, or not go there at all. The point is to act with derech eretz and not be “in their face” when we possibly dress a little more relaxed than they do.
Some people (such as the rebbetzin you mention) btw, do feel that the top or middle of the elbow is the cut off point. I used to dress that way, but over the years adopted slightly longer coverage. I don’t view it as being more or less tzniusdik than others, it’s just how I have evolved over time.
vochindik, I tried to post the name of the Rav, but the mods wouldn’t allow it.
Vochindik: There is a very well-known Mara D’asra of a large community that holds that women are allowed to show up to a Tefach above the elbow. Maybe this is what Feif is referring to.
OSUR! Yiharog V’al Yaavor.
Why would a woman be in front of a man who is not her husband? Women should not be in public at all.
kol kvuda bas melech pnima.
Yiharog V’al Yaavor.”
Uh… that would be “yeihareig v’al yaavor.” (pet peeve of mine when this is misquoted – sorry).
Your way means, he should kill, but not transgress(that is kind of an oxymoron, since one of the yeihareig v’al yaavors IS murder).
The other way means, one should BE killed rather than transgress. Crucial difference.
Sam: EDITED is a famous mara d’asra of a large community. I’m sure you didn’t mean him, and you’ll even say someone to the right of him, yet without knowing who, it may as well as be him.
Please do not name names. You are begging for loshon hara.
Sam2
Why cant you say his name?
Sam2: There’s a good chance it is. Like I said, I tried to post the name, but the mods wouldn’t allow it.
WIY: I’m sure the mods wouldn’t allow it, even though this is a well-known opinion. I could say his name, but there’s no reason for it. If you ask around I’m sure someone would tell you.
Not every rabbi’s opinion is defensible.
Iced: This opinion is defensible, even though it’s a Da’as Yachid. I would never advocate following it, but his community has every right to.
This opinion is indefensible.
Iced: Because you are such a Baki in Halacha to be able to say that? You know all of Shas and Poskim to say that that Psak has nothing to rely on whatsoever? It’s how he learns the Sugya and it’s a fair reading of several Rishonim.
So you’re the baki, I take it, to find it defendible?
Iced: It takes a lot less Bekiyus to know that a Makor exists than to know that one doesn’t.
And yet you still cannot produce a coherent defense for it.
The Pashut Lashon of the Shuchan Aruch is defense enough.
No it isn’t a defense at all.
Iced: Care to explain how when the Shulchan Aruch says “Tefach” he doesn’t really mean a Tefach?
The conversation:
Sam: But reason A, B, C!
Iced: You Kofer!
Sam: But what about the Svaros?
Iced: You Kofer!
Not much of a conversation.
What is the lashon of the Shulchan Aruch? Or at least the siman/si’ef
Interjection: 75:1. The problem with the position is that none of the Poskim read it Kipshuto. Saying that a Tefach above the elbow is allowed is a complete Da’as Yachid opinion.
Iced: You, once again, miss the point. I did not say that the position was right. It did not say that it wasn’t against everyone else. I did call it a Da’as Yachid. However, the position does have a legitimate Makor in Halachah. Quoting other, majority, more legitimate opinions does not make this one less legitimate. It means that others cannot follow is L’ma’aseh, but it also means that a Rav who is a Bar Hachi of having a position has a right to say it. I think the Shulchan Aruch proves that point fairly well. You proved that we don’t hold like that position. That’s fine. I wasn’t arguing that. Your claim was that the position is indefensible. I defended it.
“none of the Poskim read it Kipshuto.”
Aha! There’s the answer in your own words! All the poskim say something and them some yodle comes along the highway and matirs what is assur, “against everyone else” as you so elequently put it?
See, after thinking about it a little bit you figured out the answer yourself! 🙂
iced: Please don’t use Oz Vehadar Levusha as a source. As we discussed here not too long ago, many Rabbonim do not approve of that book.
iced: It’s not some yodle. R’ Teitz is one of the biggest Rabbonim in America today, and is widely respected by other Rabbonim.
I’m sorry that you don’t “approve” of Rav Shlomo Zalman and Rav Elyashev.
“some yodle comes along the highway and matirs what is assur”
Is that how it is? He matirs what is assur? Maybe they aasur that which is muttar.
Feif Un,
He is a LWMO rabbi.
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