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I think there is confusion about this out there. The Beis Din tries to verify that the convert-to-be is trully sincere. Therefore, they tell him about the hardships of being Jewish so that he should not be converting for the sake of taking part in a Bar Mitzva or to be able to marry a Jew.
Many Rabbonim added another element to test their sincerity. They push them off for a while, and give them lots of paperwork. It is important that the Ger realizes the magnatude of his/her decision and it isn’t done on the spur of the moment.
Unfortunately, many have taken this way too far and feel that it is their job to give them a hard time and push them off endlessly, and try all sorts of gimmicks to keep the prospective Ger from coming Tachas Kanfei Hashechina. This is wrong.
Rav Belsky stresses that it says Miyad (right away) we take them in. The Gemara says that Geirim suffer in this world for the time that they waited before joining. There is no Mitzva in keeping them out, other than the time it takes to make sure they are sincere.
I agree, but that means there should be a uniform standard of milestones for geirim to meet before being accepted.
HaLeiVi: Some just don’t want Geirim. Kashim Geirim L’Yisrael K’sapachas.
I agree with Haleivi. As soon as we can discern their sincerity, they should be accepted immediately.
Unfortunately, almost all of the dayanim who are currently involved in geirus are incapable of making this determination, and all of them should recuse themselves from the process since they have proven themselves terrible at it.
This is obvious from the outrageously high relapse rate of geirim being chozer l’suram.
It is equally clear that the procedures that are being done are extensive enough and that the only problem is the dayanim themselves who clearly are unable to determine even after all these procedures what should be obvious at that point–whether the candidate is sincere.
If I was working at something and had nearly as high an error rate as they do, I would quit my job since I would obviously not be good at it. They should stop; they are being irresponsible and reckless.
& once s/he has converted, they tend to be very quickly pushed off vis a vis any Shidduch, often simply for being a Ger, and not born Jewish.
Popa
I don’t think the chozer lsuram is due to their incincerity at all. I think its because it is SO HARD for a ger to adjust to our lifestyle. Additionally and just as if not more importantly they require chizuk and require love and acceptance. Are they accepted? Are they befriended? Does anyone want to be meshadech with them? Does anyone bother being mekarev them and inviting them for Shabbosim and what not? Most geirim are looked at as weird and outsiders and trust me they feel the vibes. Its very hard to be a ger and the Torah commands us 36 times about being careful with geirim. But hey look at the sinas chinum out there so if we can’t love each other its no wonder we can’t love the geirim.
All the geirim I know seem to be doing very well B”H and are married with children.
Most geirim are looked at as weird and outsiders
Because most of them ARE weird.
And that is the real answer to why they are chozer l’suram. Most of them are not stable.
And it gives a bad name to the minority who are normal and stable, when we don’t differentiate between them. The rabbonim should be able to tell the difference (I can), and if they cannot, they should get out of the business.
All the geirim I know seem to be doing very well B”H and are married with children.
Of course. Because the other ones are not part of the community anymore so you don’t know them.
Most geirim are looked at as weird and outsiders
Because most of them ARE weird.
And that is the real answer to why they are chozer l’suram. Most of them are not stable.
If this is true, then I have a different possibility. For many years now, I’ve noticed a very big trend in baalei teshuva where after a year or so they begin to backslide. I’ve even seen individuals backslide multiple times.
A number of years ago I mentioned this to one of my rebbeim and I suggested that the problem is that although there is a tremendous effort being put into making baalei teshuvah, there is very little being done to integrate them into their new respective societies. The result is that you can usually spot a baal teshuva from a mile away.
If you are saying that there is a similiar problem with geirim, then maybe the problem is not in the gierus, but how the geirim are taught to integrate afterwards.
Derech: I don’t think that is the reason why. The reason you can frequently spot them a mile away is that you also could have spotted them a mile away before they became frum. Because they were weird before they were frum, are weird when they are frum, and will be weird after they are frum.
They aren’t weird because they don’t know how to fit in; they don’t fit in because they are weird.
Anyone who has been involved in kiruv knows precisely what I am talking about.
(P.S. Please understand I am generalizing, and of course I am familiar with many, many, BT’s and geirim who do not fit into what I am discussing.)
Wiy the only way they can become Jewish should’ be if they are aware of those challenges and are ready to take them on. But you are not the first to notice, some amoraim noticed also. Check out Kiddushin daf 70: and tos’.
I’m glad you added that PS at the end, popa.
I counsel gerim to avoid the Haredi world as much as possible, because the parochial nature of such communities is prone to racism.
The requirements of the Gemara, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, etc. on conversion have been done away with, and the Demai standard has been abused beyond belief. And sadly, we know morally the situations such self-proclaimed mumchim on giyur have found themselves in.
A sincere ger should be brought close after being instructed al pi gemara in “miktzat mitzvot kallot ve chamurot.”
If a ger relapses to a state of nonobservance, there is nothing anyone can do legitimately to predict such an occurrence. Such a person doesn’t lose their Jewishness, but is instead treated as a mumar yisrael. The fanciful and unhalakhic opinions I see in some circles never fails to baffle me. A lot of apikorsus passes itself off in a Borsalino nowadays.
Popa
Most geirim are not typical people I mean just think about it. For a non Jew to go through the search and effort to become a ger (you say you know some well they all have a story some longer than others) but none of them are typical people. They are all spiritual and emotional people. You don’t get attracted to Yiddishkiet unless you are a big baal hergesh. I am with Derech Hamelech on this. They aren’t taught how to integrate. Ever see the baalei teshuvah with the weird hat and weird suit and all that? Why doesn’t anyone teach these guys how to dress? Take them to a darn suit store and hat store and make sure they look normal! Same thing with the havaarah. Why don’t they work with them and teach them how to pronounce words properly? Teach them the nusach hatefilah and kiddush…I have heard bt and geirim make kiddush and I feel bad for them because it sounds really funny.
Another thing is that geirim are different there’s no denying that they lived 20-30 years as non Jews in a totally different environment that is so different from a frum lifestyle. Its just a huge change and it takes time to adjust and without the proper support system you just burn out. Everyone needs friends and wants to feel like part of the crowd and if a ger walked in to most shuls there may be one or 2 “tzaddikim” who would bother to try and make him feel welcome and everyone else would just shy away.
Popa
I want to add that it is imperative that a ger or bt get married as soon as possible because the longer they spend being single the harder it is for them to get settled and they really have no place and lack of structure. Marriage has a way of solidifying things for them and giving their change a permanence.
I hear what you guys are saying about teaching them to fit in, but don’t they have a lot on their plate to absorb as is? It’s also hard to infringe on someone’s sense of style, when he/she has already given up most of his/her prior lifestyle. And it needs to be done without confusing them about the sometimes subtle differences between tznius/Halacha and community norms.
I’m not saying you guys are wrong, but it’s no simple feat, and also needs to be done at the proper time.
And PBA, I don’t think one may refuse a ger simply for being weird, which does not necessarily equate insincere. Most weird adults (not davka geirim) I know remain weird forever, so generally speaking they’re stable in their own right.
And don’t take this the wrong way as I’ve never met you IRL, but you do project some weirdness here, so hypothetically would you be me’gayer yourself?
Two money quotes from Rebdoniel
” And sadly, we know morally the situations such self-proclaimed mumchim on giyur have found themselves in.”
and
“The fanciful and unhalakhic opinions I see in some circles never fails to baffle me. A lot of apikorsus passes itself off in a Borsalino nowadays.”
Well done sir! Could not have said it better myself.
When I say weird, I am generally referring here to being socially awkward. That is, not picking up on social cues, and not being able to make appropriate social relationships.
Just to clarify.
And yes, I can tell within 5 minutes.
Sam2, what you wrote is outrageous! That Gemorah never meant that we should not accept Geirim. Look in the last 2 lines in Reb Daniel’s post. I do agree with him.
PBA, I have never seen a weird Ger and I’ve seen a fair amount of them. Plus, as Mamele pointed out “weird” does not equal “insincere” or “bad”. I do not know if there is a high rate of them lapsing, but whatever cases there are they probably, at least, in part caused by the way they are treated.
“Marriage has a way of solidifying things for them and giving their change a permanence.”
You mean trapping them. And that is true for geirim, BTs, and FFBs.
PBA, I have never seen a weird Ger and I’ve seen a fair amount of them.
There’s one weird guy in every room. If you can’t find him, it’s you.
Plus, as Mamele pointed out “weird” does not equal “insincere” or “bad”.
Maybe insincere is the wrong word, because it carries negative connotations. The problem is that frequently what is going on is that they don’t fit in to their old communities because they are socially awkward, and they think this will solve the problem. But then they don’t fit in here either, because they are socially awkward, and so they leave.
Popa, the rabbonim do have ample opportunity to tell the difference (sincerity vs. insincerity). Their signing off on the giyur indicates that they found the geirim sincere. The trouble starts afterwards — when uninvolved Jews, citing media reports or the omniscient “everyone knows,” treat geirim singly and collectively as insincere or under suspicion.
As for those who find geirim weird and therefore fit for hands-off treatment, I don’t think there’s a non-weirdness test that geirim have to pass before, and kal va-homer after, their giyur.
It’s not an academic issue. I know several geirim who have been wonderful frum Jews for decades who now live in fear that someone whom they’ve never met, let’s say a certain dayan, is going to put their lives (and those of their children!) under a cloud of suspicion.
Popa, the rabbonim do have ample opportunity to tell the difference (sincerity vs. insincerity). Their signing off on the giyur indicates that they found the geirim sincere.
I know. And the vast majority of rabbonim involved are terrible at it, as evidenced by their error rate. They should get out of the business.
Popa
Wow you really think some non Jew who is socially awkward will think “hmm how can I solve this problem? ” “Wait! I got it! Ill become Jewish! That will solve everything!”
I counsel gerim to avoid the Haredi world as much as possible, because the parochial nature of such communities is prone to racism.
Does anyone else see the irony here?
Derech
I stopped taking him seriously ages ago. I just feel bad for anyone under his wing.
All geirim should militantly avoid all Haredim unless they enjoy being treated like a dog.
Popa: Not really. The Gemara and Rishonim already say that Geirim have a high rate of leaving. That’s not a failure of just Z’man Hazeh.
DH: He is pointing out that in many Chareidi communities there are people who mistreat Geirim. It only takes one person to ruin a welcome to the community for someone who probably is already nervous about fitting in. He might exaggerate how widespread it is, but the end result is the same for the Ger trying to fit in.
Popa: Not really. The Gemara and Rishonim already say that Geirim have a high rate of leaving. That’s not a failure of just Z’man Hazeh.
I’m not sure what the rate was back then, and how it compares to what it is now.
But it seems too bizarre that a rav would continue using the same parameters to measure something after seeing a hundred times that it doesn’t work.
We aren’t doing anyone any favors by making them jewish and then ??????. If we really care about them, we should stop doing that.
I think you should be careful with prospective convert so you are not seducing him into your favorite minhag, as if your synagogue is the holy one; and that other shul is not so good; unless you are really sure of this minhag then you should be careful to warn him. @SpiderJerusalem: Its good to know that people who call themselves Haredim really follow passul minhag because an outsider might think they are kosher.
I would warn someone who was interested in being mgayer to my minhag: “I pretend to follow the righteousness of my forefathers which I’ve inherited from them; but frankly I am not so righteous as the earlier generations; because well, this religion is really hard and I’m lazy. You would get closer to haShem by going elsewhere.”
Popa
Haleivis post wad conplaining that the Rabbanim make it too hard on geirim. You say they make it too easy? Or you want them to have Ruach Hakodesh and know what will happen in 10 years time? If you have Ruach Hakodesh so maybe you should get involved with the geirus issue. Also please give me the winning Lotto numbers it would really help me lol.
BT’s and gerim may struggle to pick up the “shprach” and mannerisms of the community.
My suggestion: have them read the dictionary of Yeshivish, Mendel Harduf’s dictionary, and Webster’s Hebrew-English dictionary. This will help with language.
The worst baalei tefillah I’ve ever observed in my entire life are the Yeshivish. When I was a kid, our Reform cantor knew nusach, including Lewandowski and Sulzer. Instead of the sublime sound of our traditional nusach, and stunning synagogue music written by Sulzer and Lewandowski, many of our minyanim employ Benny Friedman, Yaalili, and other popular tunes from the amud, r”l.
It’s sad to say this, but the cantorial arts have been far better preserved by the non-Orthodox.
In response to giyur, if a ger decides to renege on his commitments, he’s the one who will have to answer to God in the long run. Accepting the rewards and punishments associated with being obligated in the mitzvot is the definition of kabbalat ol ha mitzvot. A bet din can and should be sensible- i.e. don’t convert someone who lacks a kosher kitchen, or don’t convert someone who has a hard time getting off work early for shabbat and taking off for holidays, etc. Common-sense approaches are needed.
Reb Doniel- I counsel gerim to avoid the Haredi world as much as possible,
Spider Jeusalem- All geirim should militantly avoid all Haredim unless they enjoy being treated like a dog.
Anyone else notice a similarity between these “two” posters?
Same2 He is pointing out that in many Chareidi communities there are people who mistreat Geirim.
And I was pointing out that he is a great example of the pot and the kettle with his overtly antagonistic attitude towards charedim.
Regardless, it may be true that there are people in the Charedi comunites who mistreat geirim, but I think there are the nebuch cases in every community. On the other hand, like in every community, there are also people in Charedi communities who go out of their way to make geirim feel welcome.
The worst baalei tefillah I’ve ever observed in my entire life are the Yeshivish. When I was a kid, our Reform cantor knew nusach, including Lewandowski and Sulzer.
If prayer is treated as a spectator event you can just groom just the top tier of performers, however if it is a participant event you need to accept the mediocre along with the exceptional.
I seem to recall that there was a thread that insisted that posts on YWN are primarily aginst MO. Can anyone find me that thread?
There are real halakhic problems with using trashy tunes. Nobody should be using Erev Shel Shoshanim, Yaalili, Benny Friedman, Eli Gerstner, etc. from the amud.
Once I was at a minyan where the very yeshivish-looking precentor used a MBD tune for Kel Adon. I had to give him a piece of my mind afterwards.
Traditional nusach and synagogue music, as preserved in Kol Rina v’Todah (the United Synagogue Blue Book) makes the shul experience sublime. Nowadays, you get a pedestrian experience in shul, which is uninspiring and fails to uplift the neshama.
I also fault many Hasidim and other venues for not having a qualified baal koreh who knows the proper ta’amei hamikra.
Rebdoniel: You don’t have a monopoly on how to be inspired during Davening. And, while respecting the Shittah of the Maharil, there have always been slight changes and innovations in the Nusach,
Also, the SHU”T Masa’as Binyaim (Siman 6, I think) came way before you in complaining about the Ba’alei K’riah.
Rebdoniel
When you stop going to watch trashy movies in theaters come back and talk about your complaints about baalei tefillah. Maybe the reason you don’t feel the Davening is because of what you watch and has nothing to do with the baal tefillah or his nusach. As you said a few months back on a thread you had to go to the theater to see Les Miserables. Should I go on?
Pop tunes do not constitute a proper innovation in Nusach haTefillah. You’re a YU guy, Sam2, no? Go speak to Cantor Beer or Cantor Goffin about this problem.
Nobody can say that a CD you buy from Eichler’s can offer the same connection to the Sublime as Lewandowski’s Kedusha.
Rebdoniel
Mbd has some very nice haartzigeh negunim. Not all of them are apropriate for an amud but a nigun like aizehu mekoman is certainly a moving nigun that can be used for Tefillah.
rd: Can you clarify what it is about the nusach issue that you think is wrong?
Do you think the new tunes are inherently inappropriate, or do you just not like the idea of changing anything that is in the mesorah?
Cause I’m a tad surprised if you think the latter.
WIY, M’komon Shel Z’vachim is, I believe, a Bobover nigun.
DY
Then MBD borrowed it.
wow! levandowsky is now the last word in nussach? some of his tunes are brilliant, but then so is yankel talmud, modzitz, and above all shlomo carlebach!
Shouldn’t there be more to davening than a “performance”.
WIY,
An appreciation for the finer things in life is hardly trashy. Going to a chasuna with rabbanim and a band playing ghetto music (albeit with Hebrew and Yiddish words) is trashy.
I am a baal tefillah, and I find my avodah to be far more uplifting and reflective of good musicianship than what I observe when I am away in other shuls. The cantorate is dead due to the yeshivos, Carlebach, and Debbie Friedman, unfortunately.
A Hugo novel is irrelevant to this discussion. Les Miserables discusses social ills, including prostitution; le havdil, the Torah talks about seduction, rape, adultery, and captive women.
Rebdoniel
Les Mis is full of trashy material like violence, rape, and child abuse. There is absolutely nothing uplifting about watching this kind of filth. It is not worth subjecting oneself to this material, simply because it contains a minor message about forgiveness at the end.
It is certainly much harder to be a charedi convert than a modern convert.
The change is more significant. One might have to totally change their appearance to be a charedi convert (Beard Peyos , Dress).
One could certainly be a sincere convert and decide they dont want a beard , Peyos or wear a Bechasha and a streimel.
Also more Charedi communities might encourage the convert to cut off ties to non-jewish relatives (including parents and siblings) where the more modern might not.
The most successful converts I know are the ones who converted with non-jewish family members blessings and still have family ties to them
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