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Daas you specific answers to my objections are completely undone by your last statement.
“Lest anyone think that I am advocating young bochurim getting dangerously drunk, I am not. I am merely pointing out the weakness of these arguments.”
I love the disclaimer at the end. it belies your your true feeling that somehow you too are uncomfortable with the drinking going on.
PS can anyone please cite the source that it is a mitzvah (from the word tzavaah meaning commandment)? You have what may be at best a d’rabbanan. Im not sure of even that.
As for the concern on being moser, I will probably defend myself upstairs with the little girl not killed by a car, by the bochur who made it to shiur the next day instead of ending up in an ER vomiting for 3 hours or worse, wrapped around a train pylon, by the real simchah of the celebration of purim and not the stupor, by the bochur who grows up not using mind altering substances every shabbos at the club, and by all the chillul hashem avoided.
Do you realize what your defending?? This is not bris milah we are talking about. Its not d’oraysa!! You are talking about life altering issues. If you want to compare weightinis of issues, should ad delo yadah outweigh ushmartem es nafshosechem meod?
One update, while I don’t condone it, NY allows consumption of alcohol in private between ages 18 and 21. But those persons are not allowed to drink their BAC above 0.02%. In NJ its still prohibited to drink alcohol until your 21. Just in case you were wondering, a 140lbs person who drinks 5oz of wine ends up with a BAC of 0.03%. Based on calculation. So in NY you can safely give an 18 year old 5oz of wine. This is not a legal opinion just my understanding of the law IMHO.
BS”D
A chilled 2010 Eau de Javel Blanc de Blancs is one of the best wines for the Purim seudah. It is sold in white jugs and is very inexpensive. Strength is 5.25 – 6.5%.
I am a mandatory reporter and I have, and will continue in the future to report distribution of alcohol to those under 21. Even on purim.
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BS”D
Knowing how many of my friends never met their grandfathers because of “mandatory reporters” in what used to be the Soviet Union, I have “mandatory reporters” of everything except real child abuse in mind when I say Velamalshenim.
However, I am not sure what the laws really are in terms of distribution for religious purposes. I do know that it is rightfully overlooked and I even bought wine when I was retroactively made underage by the law changes in the mid 80’s. In fact the only time I was ever carded was when I was already 23, at a store in Manhattan that was later shut down for tax games. I was tempted to ask them “where were you when I was 19”?
iyhbyu: White wine is lighter than red wine, which is why you may find it easier to swallow.
Normally white wine is served with fish whereas red wine is served with red meat.
As for a good wine to be mekayeim the mitzva on purim, try Chateuneuff (however you spell it). Its white not too sweet and not too dry. Be aware, that whatever you get too drunk on,you wont be able to look at again!!
drink jack daniels nd smirnoff
I am a mandatory reporter and I have, and will continue in the future to report distribution of alcohol to those under 21. Even on purim.
Two rights (wrights) may have made an airplane, but two wrongs do not make a right
Is someone allowed to take a job which makes him a mandatory reporter?
IMHO it’s a mitzvah like any other, say, like cleaning for Pesach. However one must not loose one’s head. I know of a certain Tzadik who insists, better yet demands, that his Talmidim keep themselves in check – even after giving them lots to drink. It’s not contradiction. ??? ??? ??? ?????, real awareness of HaShem should cause one to know his boundaries. This Tzadik by the way, drinks A LOT, even gets flushed, & dispenses brochos – that come to fruition. Right after that, he learns privately for a few hours.
Most if not all states have an exception of parental consent or parental supervision, even if one is under 21.
Is someone allowed to take a job which makes him a mandatory reporter?
Then there would be no yeshivos, as I’m fairly sure that teachers (and that would include rabbeim) are mandatory reporters in New York.
The Wolf
Daas Yochid…. truth be told… and others…
I hardly think the din of a mosair applies to one who is trying to keep Yidden from endangering their own lives and the lives of others, AND/or making a chilul HaSh-m!
It is odd that so many bochrim choose to be “machmirim” when it comes to the issue of drinking on Purim.
How many times have we all seen inebriated bochrim throwing up on the streets, or wandering into the streets (into traffic) or just generally “making a scene” on the streets on Purim that is truly a chilul HaSh-m?!?
If someone can prevent this, that is NOT “mosair”, it’s a mitzvah!
Do you know what the punishment for people like you are? I don’t think you want to – It has something to do with a mikvah…
Ooooh, a public threat on a public message board. 🙂 I just hope no one turns up dead, RB, or the cops are going to come looking for you.
The Wolf
2. He gives or sells or causes to be given or sold any alcoholic beverage, as defined by section three of the alcoholic beverage control law, to a person less than twenty-one years old; except that this subdivision does not apply to the parent or guardian of such a person or to a person who gives or causes to be given any such alcoholic beverage to a person under the age of twenty-one years, who is a student in a curriculum licensed or registered by the state education department, where the tasting or imbibing of alcoholic beverages is required in courses that are part of the required curriculum, provided such alcoholic beverages are given only for instructional purposes during classes conducted pursuant to such curriculum.
(Emphasis mine).
My rov says to drink enough to give you a buzz, a little more than you typically would drink, but absolutely NOT to get sloshed. And whatever amount you drink, do not get behind the steering wheel of any vehicle. There have been too many Purim emergencies because of people who are “dedicated” to REALLY, REALLY being mekayeim the mitzvah of drinking ad d’lo yada.
I don’t “collect”, “measure” or try to remember the sights that I have seen that somewhat qualify as chillul Hashem. Nevertheless, I remember well the sickening feeling of bringing Jewish drunks to the ER. In two of these cases, picking them up, restraining them and getting them to care was to deliver them from certain death or life threatening serious injury. Drink what you drink at a pesach seder, in the time frame of such and you should not become an unfortunate “colateral injury” to our already imperiled public ruchniyus.
Two additional thoughts come to mind:
1: pour me a brimming cup so holy & divine, and I will share with you some Purim wine
Country Yossi (paraphrase)
2: But this is sacramental wine. It’s only used to bless things.
Wait a minute! There’s things here.
There’s trees, there’s rocks…
…there’s birds, there’s squirrels.
Besides, Its a mitzva!
Come on! We’ll bless them all
until we get fahshnickered!
(with apologies to Rabbi Tuchman)
Gavra, Surly you dont think that NYS would make it legal to give your own 5 year old a beer right? please delve a bit further, the law limits the the rise in BAC in those instances to 0.02%. Like i calculated before, for a 140lbs male, that equates to 5oz of wine, or 1 shot, or 1(one) 12oz beer.
“How many times have we all seen inebriated bochrim throwing up on the streets, or wandering into the streets (into traffic) or just generally “making a scene” on the streets on Purim that is truly a chilul HaSh-m?!?” THANK YOU AIN!!!! A voice of reason!!
People are so quick to defend the practice of highschoolers and young men drinking to excess on purim, but when the tragedy ChVSh happens, they all fall like Daas, “not that he condones it”. Thats a cop out. And for those who think that because the Shulchan Orech says the mitzvah is to get drunk, therefore they can be bombed out of their heads I have this gem, dont think for a moment that your drinking was like the mechaber’s drinking. if you do, your a fool. I have zero doubt that if any of the Rishonim, Achronim, or ANY gadol of the past or present or future would see the excesses and drunkenness practiced in the name of a mitzvah, they would ban its practice. Devarim 4:15 A D’ORAYSA. Ad d’lo? M’derabannan at best. I cant understand the drive to defend this practice. It is beyond me. Do you let your kids smoke? Do weed? for heavens sake, people regulate how much sugar their kids ingest more closely than they do alcohol. A great story that happened to me in Shoprite illustrates this point. A young yeshiva kid was in the soda aisle looking at some glass bottles of Coke and asked his mother if he could get it. She said the glass bottles were too small and not worth the price but that she would buy a 2 liter bottle. He then said but the glass bottles are cool because it looks like your drinking a beer. He looked all of 10 years old. Think its not your problem, think again. I’m done responding to this thread. Its too aggravating.
Yes, and mesira is the answer to our problems. Ask any of Solomon D”ek’s victims.
Instead of moisering, if it means so much to you give up your OWN drinking and go ferry kids home, quietly and discreetly so there is no trouble with the cops.
Everyone needs one day a year to go wild and that is why Hashem gave us Purim. You cannot imagine how many students are frum today because of having fun with kiruv rabbis on that one day (or on Simchas Torah).
Drunk driving is another story but that isn’t what you intend to moiser, is it? I forgot – was it Lakewood or Flatbush (or Queens) where Chaverim ran free rides – THAT is how Yidden deal with sakonos nefashos – NOT mesira.
And given all the benefits of drinking one drink a day, I would be very happy to encourage any kids I may have to drink one beer or one glass of wine at 15 as is probably done in France and Italy. Thankfully, I don’t live in a place where there are mandated reporters – we still call them moisrim.
Ctrl Alt Del: I just quoted the law. You find me the law that forbids it.
I believe the 0.02% BAC is only for drivers, but I could be wrong.
In the past 10 years, how many frum men died from getting drunk on Purim? I submit, probably not even one.
Uh, Bear, sometimes a the report of a mandated reporter can stop the last bang to the head and save a life. There are grey areas, don’t be so quick to paint them all black. You a black bear, or brown?
Those who want to find a heter (or even a “chiyuv”) to act like a fool will undoubtedly find it.
Aizeh hu chacham? – Ha’ro’eh et ha’nolad.
…and if we can’t expect 15 and 16 year olds to be chachamim, at least let their parents and mechanchim act with chachmah.
BS”D
A mandated reporter is supposed to report REAL abuse, not drinking on Purim (or Simchas Torah or even by a chassune).
Which color bear reaches a weight of 600 kilos? Not black, not brown…but the only bear that would be awake all winter :)).
And it looks like someone has fallen for my wine recommendation. Distributing THAT “wine” WOULD be child abuse – hint – do a Google translation if you don’t know what usually is sold in white jugs at a strength (NB: I did NOT mention alcohol) starting at 5.25% :))))!
600kilobear returns – do you drink mashkeh, wine or both on purim?
bs’d
1) Do not assume anything when you ask about Purim
2) Google eau de Javel
3) I drink 96. This year I have mint flavored 96 which I am making by letting dried mint leaves soak in 96, and star anise 96 – ditto but with star anise. 96 has no sugar and hardly bothers me so long as I eat enough.
Ctrl Alt Del,
I don’t know if you’re still checking for responses, but yes, I’m “uncomfortable with the drinking going on”, and I wasn’t trying to hide it. But your arguments were wrong. My argument is that some people don’t know their limits. But some do, and it’s not for you to decide.
What’s the problem with the vomiting, if it’s called ????? ????? then ???? ???? ?????.
ok tghis is the type of thread i have been hoping for!!
getting drunk with wine:
dont go with such sweet stuff like bartenura cuz u r going to throw up. try something like a sweet baron herzog
Beer: dont go with the classic cheap beer. try something interesting and mildly expensive like sam adams, newcastle, or bluemoon
Hard Stuff:GLENLIVET AND GLENFIDITCH are the way to go
by the way halachikly you are supposed to get drunk on wine!!!!!!
The best wines are dry cos its the sugar that goes to your head. The drier the better.
If you cant take dry go for young or lite semi sweets like jeunesse that go down easily. It all depends on what you want to spend. Herzog merlot, valrose or valflore are quite cheap & popular. Zinfandel is nice, as is chateneuf red which is semi sweet and white which is semi dry. By the way black muscat, although a great wine, is a bit on the sweet side, not really a semi. Israeli wines like dolev zion semi cabernet or barkan’s emerald riesling or givon’s emerald riesling semi white are also good value.
Oomis: moscato d’asti is sweet not semi sweet
“observanteen: This is my last post in here Bli Neder unless someone argues with me”
… and the next post was from… er… ??
“Mbachur… my wife totally agrees with you”
mbachur has a wife??
Ps CHAYAV YOU CAME LATE IN ALL THIS DEBATE?
Just one point. Wait between drinks. When you take one after the other, they all hit at once. If you wait, you have a way of measuring if you’re running low or not.
Z K, Could I guess that “Talmidim” is a code word?
By the way, this nap thing is a corruption the Shiur of drinking until you fall asleep from it. If you dance around, you get high. If you stay sitting, you get tired.
i started this account when i was single, should i just change my screenname to mkollel. . .
No, I think mhubby would be far better. By the way, was ‘Once killed a Mountain Lion with his bare hands’ before or after your bochurish days?
By the way, this nap thing is a corruption the Shiur of drinking until you fall asleep from it.
That’s what R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky zt”l did.
Z K? Me? Code word? Refering to the story about a Rebbi? He’s a Litveshe Rebbi, with a group of Yeshiva Bachurim & young men, by his Yeshiva. He demands not losing it. That’s all.
Thanks. You answered my question.
Always ready & willing to help my fellow Jew (Jewish, I hope).
You’re very welcome mbachur. My, you’re a fast reader. I know it was a long post I wrote cos as usual I had a lot to say on the inyan, but i wrote it 3 weeks ago! Its not as if I wrote it sdrawkcab or anything like that. Anyway, enjoy your wine and have a happy (appy) purim (urim) everyone!! Hic.
Happen to agree with CAD although I wouldn’t go as far as reporting but it really is interesting to see how makpid e/o is on chayav inish… and don’t seem to care as much on other mitzvos. As far as I know v’ahavta l’reiacha komocha is probably at least as big yet i do not hear people debating the little details of this mitzva that according to Hillel encapsulates the whole Torah. Try driving, walking around or shopping in the busy commercial areas and see how people practice this mitzvah. When we have this mitzvah perfect than maybe we can focus on being medadkdek on mitzvos like Chayav Inish… Btw, I have had friends call me in tears on Purim over their husbands behavior while drunk. Many women dread Purim because of it, I guess it’s more important than sholom bayis.
canine, talk to hatzolah members before you make such claims.
I am a mandatory reporter and I have, and will continue in the future to report distribution of alcohol to those under 21. Even on purim.
Why are you granting such a status to secular law? Mandatory minimum drinking ages do not work and are fundamentally flawed ideas. Driking alcohol for religious reasons especially is not a crime. It is an observance of our religion. Do Christians moser on children who take wine at communion? No. Why should we be turn in yiddishe teens and bochurim who want to be b’simcha on Purim? Is that such a heinous crime in your book that you want to turn people in and expose them to the cruel horrors of the criminal justice system, potentially giving them criminal records that will ruin their chances at getting jobs, loans, degrees, etc., all because they wanted to drink? How is this justice? How is this halachic? Instead of coercion, try using education- explain how drunkeness and alcoholism are sinful in the eyes of halacha, unhealthy, talk about Korsakeff syndrome, etc. You get farther in life when you make heads meet, as opposed to making heads knock.
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