Purim question

kapusta, nothing to do. they only fasted on nissan the first year (the year of the decree) this is some three hundred (plus) years later.

cantoresq, did they always fast taanis esther? it’s not in the megilla.

taanis esther is a fast that is not one of the typical 4 fasts mentioned in Sefer Zecharia (the fast of the 4th month, 5th month, 7th month and 10th month, also known as 17 tammuz, 9 av, tzom Gedaliah Ben Achikam and Asara Beteves). In fact, the rishonim grapple with how it could even be allowed, as it comes the day before a holiday. But it’s not in the gemara. The Raavad in sefer Ha’eshkol says taanis esther is to prevent people from becoming too drunk on erev purim to be yotzei the megilla. As for the authenticity of purim, Josephus refers to it, and the fact that there are preserved in the apocrypha additions to megillas esther (wikipedia says they were written in 170 bce, the time of nes chanukah) shows that it had a universal acceptance.

When the rishonim dealt with the existence of this fast that they discovered, Yerushalayim was long gone. We still have this problem when Purim falls on a Sunday. Again, this is the sefer ha’eshkol. The original fast of Esther was during Pesach, and the megilla mentions no fasting that took place on the 13th, although Jewish warriors tended to fast.

A final addendum to this thread. If you have been skipping this thread until now, please continue to do so.

This was cantoresq’s post from a few days ago:

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Moish01, I’m not sure people really celebrated Purim until after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I wonder if Chazal instituted Purim, a holiday of questionable historicity and which was not observed, to supplant the Feast of Nicanor in order to play down Hasemonean significance.

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A quick googling of “Nicanor” and “Purim” revealed that this is old apikorsus spewed long ago by anti-religious historians like Graetz and his ilk. And just like a mafia don in a suit is still a brutal killer at heart, an anti-religious writer like Graetz with the veneer of “academic historian” is still an anti-religious writer. Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L takes him to task numerous times for making up slurs and canards to suit the anti-religious needs of the haskalah view that rabbinic Judaism has no validity. I am posting this lemaan ha’emes, in case anyone’s mind was confused by the blatant apikorsus expressed in this thread.

1. Purim is NOT of questionable historicity. Tanach is emes le-amito. Books of questionable historicity are not part of Tanach. Any doubt as to its authenticity is kefira and apikorsus. Ain mikra yotzei midey peshuto.

2.From an academic point of view, (Torah Nation page 40), the fact that Megillas Esther leaves out Hashem’s name completely shows that it was meant for Persian officials. What other book of Tanach has Hashem’s name expunged from it? The later additions were designed to put Hashem’s name back into the megilla, but were not part of the original.

3. When Graetz spewed his vomit over 100 years ago, archaeologists didn’t excavate Susa yet. So it was easy to say it was made up, and that the capital was Persopolis not Susa. Now they have. This is from a plaque in Darius’s palace in Susa(notice the striking similarities to the abbreviated description in the megilla, and notice Susa WAS inhabited):

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This palace which I built at Susa, from afar its ornamentation was brought. Downward the earth was dug, until I reached rock in the earth. When the excavation had been made, then rubble was packed down, some 40 cubits in depth, another part 20 cubits in depth. On that rubble the palace was constructed.

And that the earth was dug downward, and that the rubble was packed down, and that the sun-dried brick was molded, the Babylonian people performed these tasks.

[=Greeks]
The gold was brought from Lydia and from Bactria, which here was wrought. The precious stone lapis lazuli and carnelian which was wrought here, this was brought from Sogdia. The precious stone turquoise, this was brought from Chorasmia, which was wrought here.

The goldsmiths who wrought the gold, those were Medes and Egyptians. The men who wrought the wood, those were Lydians and Egyptians. The men who wrought the baked brick, those were Babylonians. The men who adorned the wall, those were Medes and Egyptians.

Darius the King says: At Susa a very excellent work was ordered, a very excellent work was brought to completion.

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4. Hendin’s Guide to Ancient Jewish Coins has a few coins clearly done in Persian style. One is labeled “Yechezkia the Pecha (aka Persian governor). clearly the jews were subservient to Persia.

5. Jerusalem had a “Shushan” gate, clearly showing a subservience to Persia.

6. There were many other Jewish sects at the time during the Second temple. If there was an alternative history, Josephus (who doesn’t toe the Rabbinic Judaism line) would have mentioned it, or one of the dead sea scrolls. none of them mention it.

7. Maseches Sofrim (found in the same gemara as Avodah Zarah for those who want to look it up at home) chapter 17 says that Taanis Esther is observed as a Monday-Thursday-Monday fast. However, “Our rabbis in Eretz Yisroel observe Taanis esther after Purim due to Nicanor Day”. The small masechtos were authored by the Savoraim in the 600’s. So this is hundreds of years after Nicanor Day, it’s still being celebrated, and they work it out to not interfere with Taanis Esther. No such conflation of Nicanor and Purim. No such hiding of the Hasmonean successes. No conflict between Taanis Esther and Nicanor day- they worked it out.

8. Finally, as posted earlier, Maccabees II mentions quite clearly that Purim and Nicanor day were separate holidays.

As is quite evident, Graetz’s kefira about Purim has no basis, neither from a Torah perspective nor from an academic perspective.