Purim

I hoped someone will explain to me why you are holding for daas Torah, instead you are claiming that it is just same as existed before. I do have to apologize to my teacher, for causing lashon hara thrown at him. I did not follow Ch Haim that one should not praise someone who is not 100% accepted tzadik as someone will contradict. Still, how someone can claim that daas Torah is included in traditional respect of chachamim and send a Holocaust survivor to China at the same time is beyond my understanding. But I digressed.

Maybe we can try to define what Daas Torah stands for … I would appreciate if you look at these references that others refer as suggesting using advice of others but still relying on sechel and mitzvot:
Gra, Mishley 16:4
Ruach Chaim Avos 2:7
Ha’amek Davar, Deut. 29:8
Netziv on Koheles 8:1
Iggeret Hakodesh of Baal HaTanya, Chap. 22.

Well so far in England, the Gatshead Rabbonim have said only to give to a couple neighbours, and in Manchester, the Rabbonim haven’t come out with anything yet but the police are going to be out there in full force, looking for people to get into trouble so we need to be super careful here if we don’t want to get £10,000 fines.
i dont know what London are doing.

See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1946020/purim-5781-a-time-for-mindfulness-and-care.html

No spike in chutz either, numbers are dropping inspite of Chicken Little saying the sky is falling, very normal purim in Monsey, BP, Flatbush, Lakewood, Monroe

@AAQ, because it was a NORMAL purim, ie groups, parties large migilla reading etc.etc., the only masks I saw were kids costume masks, I was there so I know, sorry chicken little the sky is not falling

AAQ- from square one til now the experts have repeated that precautions cannot and are not expected to prevent covid. Their purpose was to slow the spread so hospitals won’t be overwhelmed and to give the world time to develop a vaccine and therapeutics. Yet you keep repeating this ridiculous mantra “so they weren’t careful and got sick”, “so they did it wrong and got sick”, “so they weren’t safe cuz they got sick”. There is no source for that silliness. If you kissed a covid patient in march 2020 you probably got sick 2 weeks later, but unless you literally cut yourself off from all living beings, you probably got it somewhere in the following 12 months. Stop thinking everyone who got covid was negligent or ignorant. It’s a virus and it was never a thing to outrun it.

You can’t keep deaths quiet.

There haven’t been “many many” deaths since almost a year ago. R”L there have been some.

Yserbius – well that was a pretty pathetic attempt at humor. Unless you’ve really lost it and think that’s true. I think it’s horrific motzei shem ra and frankly, a bunch of baloney. Too much cuomo nursing home scandal rattling aroung in your head?

@AAQ, how about I was in Lakewood and saw it first hand the purim went on as normal and it had zero to do with the ederly getting vacinated Lakewod is a very young town I dont need Google to tell me facts because I was there, oh wait a minute you said you don’t suscripe to the consept of daas torah, why the change all of a sudden?

It’s a rumor, one I’m inclined to believe. For example, there was a Lakewood paper that printed several pages of obituaries last year for Pesach because of all the COVID deaths. Then they stopped printing obituaries.

I’m curious why now you demand a high standard of proof for everything people say, when previously you were quick to disregard any expert opinion on the topic of Coronavirus and base your actions on things that you heard.

It’s a rumor, one I’m inclined to believe.

Of course, because it fits your agenda. But it’s a bunch of malarkey. Made up by someone with the same preconceived notions as yours.

Syag: unless you literally cut yourself off from all living beings, you probably got it somewhere in the following 12 months. Stop thinking everyone who got covid was negligent or ignorant

I am absolutely not claiming that everyone who got sick is at fault. And it is obvious that people have different circumstances – some taking care of patients or relatives, some send kids to grandparents because there is nowhere else to go, etc. At the same time, I am rejecting your fatalism that if it is dangerous out there, then we should give up on precautions. If I understand your description, you people are not very careful, then some of the sick people are due to your being not careful. You semi-acknowledge that those in your area who were slightly more careful got it a year later. This is, of course, already a great thing, as you are saying – as medical treatment now is better, about half of people getting sick a year later will pass away.. it is a big difference.

@AAQ, first of all what are “youngeles” never heard of the word.
Second I doubt you ever stepped foot in Lakewood and for sure not in the past 20 years, Lakewood has grown from a small community centered around the yeshiva to a sprawling and growing community covering Dover, Brick, Tom River, Manchester, Jackson, Howell, There are over 300 shuls in the greater Lakewood area ranging from Satmar to Edut Mitzrach and the Rabbis of each have differnce of opinions on a wide variety of matters. FYI one of the busiest shuls in Lakewood happen to be Satmar where the mask enforement is pretty lax.
PS I find it ironic that you, who always knocks daas torah and moreh derech and doing your own thing when it come to halacha is all of a sudden so concerned about daas torah

Syag, Common, I am trying to learn from people here how they use daas Torah, and so far, I am coming empty-handed. I may have missed some posts, but I did not see anyone confirming that they personally asked a shaila and what kind of an answer they got. If you asked but were sworn to secrecy, just say so, I’ll respect that.

Syag > You cannot apply global statistics to a specific area.

While this is a great truth in general, and an area of my study and parnasah in particular, I think you are using this notion to support your denial. Are you saying that people in your area are great tzadikim have better outcomes than others? I think it is generally not recommended to draw on your zehuyot in this world. It could be that you are defining your community too narrow, so that you are randomly lucky. As an illustration, there is research showing that death rate in nursing homes is 50% higher when they are located near universities, with COVID unwittingly brought there by nurses who are also enrolled in school, despite them being careful. Would an individual nurse or a college student observe that connection? No.

“I think you are using this notion to support your denial. Are you saying that people in your area are great tzadikim have better outcomes than others?”

if that’s what you think then we are obviously still at an impasse. You have no clue what goes on in my area yet you feel free to tell me why my statements and observations don’t exist. Are you aware that you cannot have conversations with people if you cannot open yourself to the idea that you are lacking some information? Are you aware that you cannot take people’s statements and alter them to something they didn’t say? You think you are arguing points and really you are just talking to yourself while others here try to get a word in edgewise.

@AAQ, “Syag, Common, I am trying to learn from people here how they use daas Torah, and so far, I am coming empty-handed. I may have missed some posts, but I did not see anyone confirming that they personally asked a shaila and what kind of an answer they got.”
The concept of asking daas torah is deferring to someone who has a better grasp of halacha and you following the ruling even if it goes your strong held feelings, something that is very much an foreign concept for you, [for example if the Rabbi would have told same a statement to have a huge party you would have been all over them] you only believe in daas torah when it fits your agenda.
Btw the normal purim was celebrated by the broad spectrum of Lakewood not just a few Brooklyn transplants. As to your question of how people in Lakewood knew how celebrate purim, unlike you they dont consult Rabbi Google, they either have a person converation with the Rav, follow signs in shuls, or get instuctions from the local mosdos.
FYI Satmar has been in Lakwood for over 50 years, not recent transplants

Again, you are missing the basics. Just your questions indicate that you need to sit down with someone in real life who lives daas torah and let them teach you what it means. Not a pamphlet, someone who ascribes to modern orthodoxy, or someone who has written it off. Please. Do yourself a favor.

Syag: you are missing the basics.
Syag, I asked you and others multiple times to explain your position, either in simple terms or in theory. I even suggested at the top of this thread several references to such controversial MO Rabbis as Vilna Gaon, Netziv, Ball HaTanya. You continue saying that I am not getting it right and not telling me what is right.

You seemed appalled with some statements that sound non-controversial to me. To pick an example – that “Daas Torah” (if it exists) is a Democratic (or maybe more precisely, Republican) institution – there is a certain hierarchy with multiple branches up and everyone at each level makes selections whom to ask hard questions and this way Jewish community (hopefully) organizes around a Talmid Chacham. I am aware that Moshe Rabeinu was not selected this way. But this seems how things happen in our days. Is it different in your community? Do you follow a strict hereditary Rebbe – always to the oldest son?

“Syag, I asked you and others multiple times to explain your position, ……You continue saying that I am not getting it right and not telling me what is right.”

Hullo? Hullo, is my microphone working? Testing, 1-2-3?

You asked, i said it is really important for you to find someone who can explain it in person. You responded by asking again. I responded by repeating that you really need to find someone who can explain it in person. To which you respond that I’m refusing to answer. Hullo?

Try the partners in torah program. A phone or zoom chavrusa will give you a solid regular timeslot for as long as you need to hash this out and ask all your questions. I implore you. Please.

Syag,
thanks for you suggestion to ask someone else. I appreciate your concern. Do not worry, I did and do learn with people who are probably closer to your attitude of D.T. We all are doing fine.

Common, jack of all trades – exactly.

>> how to educate my kids

I heard the names you are quoting, they do sound militant. This does not take away from possible problems in the community. As Hazon Ish mentioned to the Satmar Rebbe, that he is basing budding haredi system on the Rambam – that if one lives in a bad place, he needs to move, and if that is not possible – go to the desert. So, this successful desert community undoubtfully saved many people both in Israel and probably even more in USA. Still, being in the desert has negative sides, and we are well over 40 years at this point.

common, I agree with you on expertise. I am not sure whether we need to argue here. We seem to disagree though – you consider Torah learning akin to root canal. This is gross. I understand what you are saying that you want to ask hard question of someone more competent. I do not argue on that. This at the same time does take away your responsibility to understand the logic behind ruling, ask questions, and sometimes even to ask further. This is even true with the root canal. Your doctor should explain you the plan, answer your questions, and occasionally change it based on your input.

common, you are attacking a strawman. I am not against expertise. We seem to disagree in these points:
1) you need to struggle to understand Torah according to your ability, not just outsource your halakhic decisions to an expert.

2) this especially concerns mitzvot bein adam l’havero and l’atzmo, as the answer depends on the person. So, if you don’t master some understanding, you’ll end up either asking shailos daily, or, more likely, applying right answers to wrong questions.

3) you need to be actually asking shailos- I don’t recall seeing here claiming they asked shailos about permission not to be careful during pandemic. or about permission to be careful if others are not.

Syag, in your gut vort, you may be under-using your Rav by relying mostly on public pronouncements, as the answers may be different for different people. Maase HaRav (the one who is pro-DT). Shortly after I asked him re:kids and schools, he spoke at length on the topic at a seuda. On the way out, I said – “thanks”. He raised his brows – “I was talking to someone else”.

So, say, your Rav feels that he needs to encourage community to stay together despite pandemic. If you come to him and ask – my friends on YWNCR say that people might die, what would you advise me to do to make people safer without breaking that community spirit, maybe he will answer.

I am not implying anything about your Rav. I am interested to hear his opinion and reasons.
I do have capacity and a degree (this is for Common, he only cares about certified opinions) to be able to process scientific literature and understand that there are a lot of unsafe things that can happen. We presented here lots of facts, not “modern orthodox” opinions. And we are not “ignoring rabbinical authority” as there are a lot of Rabbis of all flavors who pasken to be careful. I did not organize our outdoor minyan, a kollel-educated Rav did. Lakewoodish Rosh Kollel requires masks and wears one himself inside and outside. I also understand that there are trade-offs. One of them _might_ be based on what your congregation can handle.

But it goes to basic human nature: it seems that any human being would like to protect people around us. You are saying that your Rav says – no, you don’t have to, for whatever reasons. It sounds natural for you to ask – what is his reasoning, so you understand it and maybe explain to others, like us. And would he permit/advise you personally to be more careful? Seems like you are refusing to ask a shaila, not me.

I didn’t say they were mordern orthodox opinions. I said it was opinions of modern orthodox posters who don’t hold of daas torah. And i don’t know about your facts, but your adjectives were problematic. For example if covid kills x% of the population, that is not the same as saying that if i don’t wear a mask i will cause x% to die. No scientist would get away with that manipulation. No poster should either.