Proper pronunciation of words in prayers

MiddlePath,

Also there is a difference between the Chaf and the Het. The Caf is from the roof of the mouth, whereas the Het comes from the throat. In fact, the Gemara relates that a Cohein that pronounces the Caf like the Het is not allowed to do Birkat Cohanim.

All you can do is bring this to people’s attention. You’re doing the right thing. This way, people will be more careful once they are aware of the problems that may arise.

Mods,

Am I no longer allowed to ask Joseph for a cite?

The Wolf

Whenever one mispronounces a word in tefila, a deformed malach is created that will testify against him in Beis Din shel Mala.

Cite?

The Wolf (who does NOT like being muzzled)

many Ashkenazim are also makpidim on pronouncing the ?? as an “s” & not a “t” during davening despite using the “t” pronunciation in conversation

I’m with you, Gefen. Hashem gave us the mitzvos to LIVE ??? ???, not to be paralyzed with fear in the context in which you write. Hashem is a loving G-d & not punitive in the way that 1 mistake & one gets clobbered ch”v.

The Sefer HaKuzari writes that we should consider each and every mitzvah as a personal invitation by Hashem to enter into His very palace.

There’s an INCREDIBLE vort on the megila we just read:

We read in ????? ??? that when Boaz sees Ruth at his feet, he says in 4:11-4:13 that (paraphrasing) my daughter, don’t be afraid. Whatever you say, I’ll do. I’m a redeemer, but there’s a closer redeemer. Stay the night. In the morning, if he’ll redeem you, fine. Otherwise I’ll redeem you. Lie down till the morning.

The ?? ??? ?? says that these are not only Boaz’s words but also Hashem’s!

Hashem says to Am Yisrael: Stay through the long night of ????. Don’t ever give up, for morning will surely come. And when morning comes, you have a closer redeemer, your own ????? ?????? ?????. Perhaps they’ll be enough to redeem you when ???? comes.

But if not ch”v, if you’ve been loyal to Hashem, then Hashem Himself will be your redeemer and do not be afraid!

So you see, intention & loyalty is very important.

Do not be afraid!

Pac/Man,

I’m still waiting on that source.

The Wolf

Shiboles!

Here are some related discussions on Mesechtes Megillah 24 that I found online on a daf yomi sources prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman

of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim:

1) ONE WHO DOES NOT PRONOUNCE THE LETTERS PROPERLY

(a) Gemara

1. Rav Asi: If one is from a place where people do not speak clearly, he may not Duchan (give Birkas Kohanim).

2. Support (Beraisa): If one is from a place where people pronounce ‘Aleph’ like ‘Ayin’ or vice-versa, he may not be Over Lifnei ha’Teivah.

3. R. Chiya (to R. Shimon bar Rebbi): If you were a Levi, your deep voice would disqualify you.

4. Rebbi (to R. Shimon): Tell R. Chiya (who pronounces ‘Ches’ like ‘Hei’) that when he reads “V’Chikisi la’Shem” (it sounds like ‘v’Hikisi’, I hit), he blasphemes!

5. Bava Metzi’a 85b: Eliyahu told Rebbi that the Tefilah of R. Chiya and his sons could bring Moshi’ach. Rebbi appointed R. Chiya to be Shali’ach Tzibur. Eliyahu needed to disrupt the Tefilah to prevent it from bringing Moshi’ach prematurely.

(b) Rishonim

1. The Rif and Rosh (3:16) bring Rav Asi and the Beraisa.

2. Rambam (Hilchos Tefilah 8:12): We do not appoint to be Shali’ach Tzibur one who pronounces ‘Aleph’ like ‘Ayin’, or cannot pronounce the letters properly. A Rebbi may appoint one of his Talmidim to be Shali’ach Tzibur.

i. Kesef Mishneh: Even though normally we appoint to be Shali’ach Tzibur only one of the great Chachamim and Tzadikim of the Tzibur (Halachah 11), a Rebbi may appoint one of his Talmidim to be Shali’ach Tzibur.

ii. Eshel Avraham (OC 53:15): The Rambam teaches about a Rebbi appointing a Talmid right after disqualifying one who mispronounces letters to teach that a Rebbi may appoint such a Talmid. He learns from Rebbi, who appointed R. Chiya.

3. Rambam (Hilchos Tefilah 15:1): Improper pronunciation disqualifies a Kohen from Birkas Kohanim. For example, one who pronounces ‘Aleph’ like ‘Ayin’ or vice-versa, or says ‘Siboles’ instead of “Shiboles”, and similar mistakes. Likewise, if one speaks unclearly and not everyone can discern the words, he may not give Birkas Kohanim.

i. Kesef Mishneh: The Beraisa mentioned only one who confuses ‘Aleph’ and ‘Ayin’. The Rambam understands that the same applies to ‘Siboles’ and “Shiboles”, and one who speaks unclearly.

4. Question: Rebbi appointed R. Chiya to be Shali’ach Tzibur even though he could not pronounce ‘Ches’!

5. Answer #1 (Tosfos Bava Metzi’a 85b DH Achtinhu): We do not appoint a Shali’ach Tzibur who cannot pronounce the letters properly when there is someone else who can. Here, there was no one else (who could bring Moshi’ach).

6. Answer #2 (Tosfos Megilah 24b DH keshe’Atah): When R. Chiya exerted himself he was able to pronounce it.

i. Rebuttal (Pri Chodosh 53:12): If so, why did Rebbi say that R. Chiya blasphemes when he reads “V’Chikisi la’Shem”? Surely, he would exert himself to say it properly! Rather, we must answer like Tosfos in Bava Metzi’a.

7. Answer #3 (Eshel Avraham ibid.): A Rebbi may appoint such a Talmid.

(c) Poskim

1. Shulchan Aruch (OC 53:12): We do not appoint to be Shali’ach Tzibur one who pronounces ‘Aleph’ like ‘Ayin’ or vice-versa.

i. Magen Avraham (15): Ayin is stronger and deeper than Aleph. Likewise, we do not appoint one who pronounces ‘Ches’ like ‘Hei’. If everyone speaks this way, he may be Shali’ach Tzibur.

ii. Question: If someone confuses Ches and Hei, Shin and Samech, Kuf and Tes, or Reish and Dalet` how can he pray or read in the Torah? When he says verses such as “L’Nafsheinu Chiksah”, he blasphemes!

iii. Answer (Sefer Chasidim 18): Our Creator knows our intent. He only desires that we be wholehearted with Him. If the person does not know how to speak, Hash-m considers it as if he was Mekaven well. Similarly, Hash-m takes delight in people who sing Pesukei d’Zimra in a nice voice, even if they err because they do not know the verses – “V’Diglu Alai Ahavah”. A case occurred, a Chacham told a Kohen to descend from the Duchan because he could not say the letters properly. The Chacham was shown from Shamayim that he will be punished if he does not return him.

iv. Kaf ha’Chayim (61): If no one else is as great a Chacham and Chasid, this is considered that there is no one else.

v. Bi’ur Halachah (DH Ein): He should not be appointed even on occasion.

vi. Mishnah Berurah (37): Likewise, if one speaks unclearly he may not be Shali’ach Tzibur (just like he may not give Birkas Kohanim). The Yerushalmi Berachos Sof 16b) permits ‘Leshono Aruch’. Pnei Moshe (DH Im) says that he stammers, nevertheless he is permitted because he does not change the letters. It is easier to understand according to Sefer Charedim’s Perush there (DH Ach), that this refers to one who pronounces the letters properly even though others of his city cannot.

vii. Mishnah Berurah (38): The Mar’eh ha’Panim (Yerushalmi ibid., DH Lo) requires that he can pronounce properly, through exertion if necessary. The Pri Chodosh (ibid.) allows one who mispronounces letters when there is no one else as qualified. He would not allow a permanent appointment, for perhaps later someone qualified who pronounces them properly will come.

viii.Kaf ha’Chayim (60): Birkei Yosef disallows one who can pronounce properly only through exertion, lest he will forget to exert himself.

ix. Bi’ur Halachah (DH Mi): The Taz (128:30) is lenient (regarding Birkas Kohanim, and the same applies to Tefilah) because nowadays most of us do not know how to distinguish these letters.

2. Shulchan Aruch (128:33): One who does not know how to pronounce the letters properly, e.g. he pronounces ‘Aleph’ like ‘Ayin’ or vice-versa or similar mistakes, may not Duchan.

i. Mishnah Berurah (120, citing Taz 30): Nowadays most of us do not know how to distinguish them, so one is not disqualified for this. In Russia, even though people know the difference between Shin and Sin, since many do not distinguish them one is not disqualified for this, just like certain Mumim do not disqualify if Dash b’Iro (people are used to them).

ii. Rebuttal (Mishbetzos Zahav 30): Mispronunciation distorts the Berachah, and distracts listeners. Dash b’Iro helps for the second problem, but not for the first. However, when the entire region speaks that way we are not concerned.

iii. Kaf ha’Chayim (192): One should not rely on Dash b’Iro unless there is no else to Duchan. If someone else can Duchan, Kohanim who cannot should leave the Beis ha’Keneses before Retzei.

iv. Kaf ha’Chayim (193): Poskim argue about whether or not a Kohen who mispronounces should go down from the Duchan if he already ascended. It seems that if Dash b’Iro, or if he can pronounce properly through exertion, he should not go down.

v. Magen Avraham (47): There is no Ayin in Birkas Kohanim. The Shulchan Aruch refers to one who does not distinguish Aleph from Ayin.

vi. Rebuttal (Be’er Heitev): This does not answer the question! It could have said ‘Aleph like Ayin’, without mentioning vice-versa!

vii. Defense (Kaf ha’Chayim 189): The Shulchan Aruch adopted the text of the Beraisa, which discusses Tefilah.

viii.Eshel Avraham (47): There is an Ayin in the Birkas ha’Mitzvah beforehand (…v’Tziivanu Levarech Es Amo Yisrael b’Ahavah). Rashi (Megilah 24b DH Mipnei) says that pronouncing Ayin like Aleph harms Tefilah. Perhaps he is not concerned for the Berachah before Birkas Kohanim because one Kohen can say it on behalf of all the Kohanim.

Once again, you’ve answered the question that no one asked.

I couldn’t find any rule against that in the CR rules.

No one disputes the importance of pronouncing words correctly during davening.

Actually at least 3 different posters above downplayed that mispronouncing words in tefila was much of a big deal.

Please provide the source to that or retract.

Even if I can’t find the source doesn’t make the source go away or the point any less real because one person in America forgot where the source is.

no one is compelled to produce a source

no one is compelled to retract if he so fails to do

Fine. I will change my wording.

Produce a source or I will feel free to completely disregard what you say and consider it complete baloney and nonsense.

The Wolf

Produce a source or I will feel free to completely disregard what you say and consider it complete baloney and nonsense.

I produced to the source per your challenge proving a rasha who knows Kol HaTorah Kula is NOT a “Talmid Chochom” and you dismissed it after saying you are free to believe as you wish, and did not “concede the point” as you claim above to do.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yichus-in-shidduchim/page/2#post-250919

Furthermore, in looking at the sources you’ve brought, they all concern either a Shliach Tzibur or a Kohen who will duchen — in other words, cases where people are saying things for the tzibbur. They do NOT, however, cases of private tefillah.

The Wolf

Actually, you did not source it. You said that the Gemara elaborates the attributes of a TC, but you did not tell me where the Gemara is. Furthermore, while you did list some of those attributes, none of them are impossible to find in someone whom you would consider to be a rasha. Heck, you might even find some of them in me.

The Wolf

In addition to paraphrasing the Gemorah I brought ???? ??? ??? ???? and clearly a rasha cannot fit into that definition.

It says a TC “avoids wrongdoing”. A rasha clearly does not. There alone you have proof a rasha cannot be a TC, regardless of how much Torah he knows.

Can we please stop this childish bickering and get back to the very valid point made by the original poster.

It is at times extremely important to say the words in our tfillos correctly.

The most obvious one is also in birchas hamazon where many people speak about HKBH as BOREINU (=our pit) rather than BORE-EINU.

Another important one (de’orayso!) is the first word in the first parshe of Shema: Ve’ohavto. The stress must be both on the Aleph-kometz and on the Tov-kometz (ve’OhavTO)whilst many people say Ve’oHAVto which makes it past tense.

Chazan Benjamin Muller of Antwerp has on his website several examples of “Milim kesikunom”.

For every properly pronounced word you create a good malach who will testify on your behalf.

So if you never knew chazir was treif and someone told you so but didn’t know the “source”, you would continue eating chazir until someone proved the source to you?

See Mod 80’s point above about sources.