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I am not against the random pocket searches, if they are warranted (i.e., the students are not compliant, and show they are untrustworthy). If the principal has cause, he is the final authority in the school. If it were rumored that there were drugs being used in school, would you be against random searches of the boys’ pockets and lockers, or bookbags, just because it was only a “few” guilty parties? I am not in favor of arbitrary searches, just for their own sake, when there is no reason to suspect there is a problem . But if it is already being done, then clearly there was a reason for it. Rules are in place for a reason. There are lots of rules we have to follow on the real adult world, and the sooner these kids learn that life lesson, the better off they will be. There will be lots of stuff that they perceive to be unfair, coming their way. The fact is, if they have nothing to hide, they will not have a problem. I do think the principal should handle it tactfully however, and not in an autocratic manner.
BTW, bomb, I am NOT against cellphones, I am against their use during school hours. And since I am against their use during school hours, I see no purpose in students having them on their persons at that time. They can only be used for nefarious purposes during class or during a test, so I see absolutely no reason why they SHOULD be permitted. Somehow, the baby boomers among us managed to get through four years of High School without a cell phone, and we were none the worse for wear. Kids today believe they will DIE without their text messaging, and you know what — this generation has produced a group of kids who are rudely on their cells WAY too much, even when they are ostensibly on a date, or even just having a conversation with someone who is standing in front of them.
oomis…this topic is about phones in yeshiva, so when i say against phones, i mean phones in yeshiva.
as for “But if it is already being done, then clearly there was a reason for it”
that’s not necessarily true
“The fact is, if they have nothing to hide, they will not have a problem”
would you have a problem with a cop searching your house for drugs just because he could? i am sure you have nothing to hide…
“They can only be used for nefarious purposes during class”
love the use of “nefarious”
“Kids today believe they will DIE without their text messaging”
don’t i know it…i had a kid in my class who sent something like 16,000 (yes, thousand) texts per month!
If at any point it is necessary to do random searches, it should be done in the most discreet and non-humiliating way. And by no means should a principal do it alone. He should ask the student to please come to the office and not indicate why, and then ask another adult to come in as well.
He should say to the student clearly “I am not accusing you of anything but you know that the Yeshiva has a policy of random search and I am supposed to enforce it. Do you have anything on your person that you should not have or is against the rules of the yeshiva? Would you mind emptying your pockets into this plastic bag?”
After it is done, the Principal should say “Thank you for your cooperation”. In this manner as he does the random search of any student and then of a student that he suspects, the students can compare experiences and see they were the same and that all were treated fairly. In addition, there would be another adult present to realize whether or not the principal is picking on any particular student and if he is treating all equally. If done with seichel and not bullying it does not have to become an issue.
as a student, you wouldnt object to such treatment?
bombM – I personally would not object, as long as it is done in a menschlech, quiet manner, not with someone barking at me, “EMPTY YOUR POCKETS!!!!” You forget, a Yeshivah cannot be compared to an illegal search and seizure by cope, because in America, a cop must have a search warrant which has been executed properly for CAUSE, because there is a Bill of Rights. The B of R do NOT apply to a private school, as there is strict separation of church and State to circumvent that. A school is not a democracy, and the principal has to run the school according to school policy. If he oversteps his bounds, the parent body can respond to that as a group, if they desire, take their kids out of the school, or abide by the rules.
Unless a principal is a total control freak, no one would start making boys empty their pockets without a good reason. I sued the term” nefarious” btw, because it is just a cool word. I love it! I was toying with “evil” or “reasons of malfeasance”, or “sinister,” but nefarious was perfect. let’s get real. We know what kids would be doing all day if they could. My son is a GREAT young man, responsible, voluntarily works with both elderly patients with dementia, and with children of developmental delays or with life-threatening conditions, but when he is home late at night when he is not learning with his chavrusa, he is on that cellphone, texting constantly, even in the middle of a verbal converation with someone else. It is annoying, addicting, and unnecessary. This generation is becoming the one that no longer knows how to have a real and complete conversation. But they no hw 2 spl gr8. TTYL.
apparently you have mastered the art of abbreviated speak far netter than i have 😀 honestly, the way i see this, is that people are opposed to texting. that is the bottom line. texting. so what people propose as a solution, is disabling the text function on the phone, but as we all know, that never works, because texting does have it’s practical uses, and eventually we end up removing that restriction. therefore here is a solution that i found to be quite effective, and it is what i do currently and did in high school. basically, you LIMIT the texts on the phone. personally i am limited to 200 texts a month, and if i went over i would have to pay for it out of my own $$$. 200 texts a month comes out to approximately 7 texts a day give or take. problem solved. everywhere. school, home, wherever. if you can only send 7 texts a day, and to text more than the allotted amount would result in monetary loss, then a i guarantee you they will only text when necessary. nothing is more important to a high school kid than his $$$ 😀 this solves the problem on the parents end. it does nothing to solve the problem from the principal’s end…but it’s a start. it is a good start though…because many parents are at odds with principals on this one, and this is a kind of compromise.
(mods feel free to edit this last part if you feel it is inappropriate, i just feel it needs airing)
one last thing oomis…personally i think it would be preferable if the search is done in front of other students, because in today’s day and age, (and i am not saying this to be perverted) a kid and 2 adults in an office alone can lead to problems (ie. lawsuits, accusations…etc) i know of a rebbi who was fired for having a kid sit on his lap…in fact we are told in summer camp that if any camper sits on the lap of any staff member that staff member must get up. is there anything wrong with sitting on a rebbi’s lap? no. but in today’s world we must be ever so careful about maaras ayin.
bombM, I totally agree with your last paragraph, 100%. It should be done in front of other students, anywy, or the value of the search is lost on those students. They have to see exactly what will be happening. And your point is well taken.
its unfortunate that one might reach such conclusions, but i didnt even think of what you said. it is a good point. if they do it in front of the students they will all be less inclined to break the rules.
“It should be done in front of other students”.
I disagree. Humiliating public searches should never be done.
At least no one here is proposing 90 lashes in front of classmates.
In Jewish law, there are occasions for public humiliation, but only after a full judicial conviction. If the penalty of “lashes” triggers additional humiliation such as release of bodily fluids, the lashes are immediately terminated.
I agree with Josh31, one must be very careful not to humiliate students especially in front of their peers. If you do it is not only an aveirah, it will backfire. Kids will say “he only did it to embarrass him” and they will lose respect for the mechanech. They will not learn from it.
no no no you missed my point. i didnt say it should be done in public…i simply said it shouldnt be done in private. a principle may run into problems of the student or other students starting innuendo about him if he does the checks in his office with no one around to see. even if there is another adult present. it should be done in the general office, or in any other place like that to avoid any possible innuendo. if you have a full office staff present, accusations and claims just won’t start.
Josh31, there is public and there is public. If a principal announces to the school that random searches will be made, well in advance of the searches, and then simply asks students at random to turn their pockets inside out, there is nothing humiliating about that – UNLESS – the student has something to hide. If they knwo this will be done(and we are not talking about a strip search after all), then there is no reason for the students to object to a school policy of which they were made aware in
advance. It is important for the other students to know this is being done and to see it is done at random (the “good” kids as well as the “bad” ones). Witnessing the search, shows the student body that the school means business, and that is crucial to compliance with the rules. Kids will try to get away with anything and everything, unless they realize people in authority are serious about stopping them.
What if the item exposed is a snot filled tissue?
Being shamed in front of 3 of your classmates is almost as bad as in front of them plus 1000 strangers!!!
Oh, please, this is getting silly. Snot-filled tissues????? If turning your pockets inside out is cause for extreme “public humilitation,” then there is something either wrong with what is in your pockets, or you are way too sensitive (and I know teens ARE sensitive, but come on). “Release of bodily fluids” ????????? We are not talking about public lashings. Get over yourselves, kids and don’t do stuff that flouts the school rules, so these “unpleasant” tactics will not be necessary, as they apparently seem to be.
“Get over yourselves, kids”
I am 53, but I do remember what it was like to be a kid.
Hashem Is Everywhere: Tractate Makkot Chapter 3 end of Mishna 14
I am older than you, Josh, and I would had absolutely NO PROBLEM following a directive of a school principal, both when I was a student, and even now as a parent and grandparent. It is irrelevant what you and I think, the only relevance is what the HANHALA of the school thinks is necessary for the welfare and benefit of their school. People who feel their “rights” are being infringed upon, are free to go to other Yeshivos that are more to their liking and less restrictive of their personal freedom.
oomis1105, some of the “rights” you are so disdainful of are actually Torah values. An actual study of (at least the Mishnayos of) the 3 “Babas”, Makkos and Sanhedrin can be quite an eye opener.
In an insensitive school, even a kid who fully tries to follow the rules can be severely shamed if he or she gets a cold or has any other health issue.
Cell phone policies can be enforced without subjecting kids to shame on unrelated matters.
True, we try to educate kids to focus on their responsibilities as opposed to rights. But a kid will not accept the teachings of the sinfulness of shaming others from a school that shames him or her unnecessarily even once.
I am not disdainful of RIGHTS, Josh. There ARE no rights in a private school, regarding defined school policy. Period. Apparently the principal does NOT feel the policy can be enforced without making spot checks, perhaps he has tried it your way and it failed. If those kids feel shamed, they should either go to another school or NOT CARRY A PHONE IN THEIR POCKETS. I really don’t understand why some people do not get this, it just seems so simple to follow. Yeshivah is not a Democracy. This is not an invasion of their privacy – it is a publicized policy and the consequences that will follow, as well as the method by which the policy will be enforced. The boys are well aware of it. If anything embarrasses them, it will be because of their own actions. Stop coddling kids. They are no longer babies when they get into high school, and one of the lessons HS teaches is accountability
HIE- the rule is no cellphones-PERIOD- it doesn’t matter if he uses it in school or not.
HIE, it matters not at all whether or not the child uses the phone. He is not allowed to have one in school, so the fact that he chooses to blatantly flout the rule, shows he is not trustworthy.
I don’t know how old most of the posters are who are in support of the students, but most responsible parents and grandparents of my generation at least, are tired of kids thinking they can do anything they want, and will deviously go about doing those things, then cry “foul” when they are caught in the act. You can choose to unproductively defend them all you want, but they have no rights, except those that the Yeshivah confers upon them. I have said repeatedly, IT IS NOT A DEMOCRACY – it is PRIVATE SCHOOLING!
Would you argue the same point if the rule related to the wearing of white-only button-down shirts and the student came in wearing a plaid, or perhaps a different solid color. Maybe blue shirts are JUST as nice as white. Maybe the student LIKES blue shirts. Maybe he NEEDS to wear it so he can feel a sense of personal identity. WHO CARES????? The rule is white button-down shirts, so that’s what a student who wants to attend this school has to conform to. If not, there’s the door.Find a different school.
Understand that nobody makes rules about cell phones just in order to make kids miserable. Clearly there has been a problem (and cheating through texting on the phone, has been found to be one among many problems), and it is responsible of the principal to ensure that the problem is resolved. We don’t know what the original situation was that prompted the random searches, but it had to be that too many students were non-compliant with the rules, and a stop had to be put to this.
HIE, that is reiterating the rule, in other words, not only will the cell phone be confiscated but you will also get a ZERO on the test. It is not allowed period. If you bring it to school put it in your locker, you are not allowed to walk around the school premises with your phone. It doesn’t make a difference which rule you are breaking, if you agreed to the rules when you entered the school then follow the rules.
EDITED
So HIE, you are saying (and correct me if I am wrong) that despite the fact that the school that your kids attend SPECIFICALLY has told the kids they may NOT have cell phones in school, that the kids are so non-compliant (as kids usually are when they think a rule is “silly”) that they actually had to make yet another rule that if they are caught with a cell during a test, they will get a zero? If they were regularly checking the kids at random, the cell during a test would probably not happen. A dishinest kid is a dishonest kid, no matter which rule he is breaking. ANd make no mistake, if the rule is no phones allowed uin school, and he has one, he is just as dishonest as the cheater on the test. We don’t get to decide which rules may be broken.
Pocket inspections can be circumvented by hiding the phone inside one’s underwear.
Perhaps metal detectors can catch cell phones. If not, full body strip searches or the new “total body scanners” that we hear about being proposed for airports are needed.
Some public schools have metal detectors to catch weapons. The metal detectors work, but give the school a stigma.
Any bochur who is so completely dishonest that he will actually hide his cell phone in his underwear, has much bigger problems than can be discussed in a blog. Another thought just occurred to me, but I am refraining from further comment. The metal detectors in public schools are unfortunately a necessary evil, to prevent another Columbine tragedy or other type of attack. Weapons have been confiscated all too often. Thank G-d for technology, or we would see much more violence than we already do.
HIE, actually they really mean NO PHONES, but they are containing themselves by banning them only from school!!!!
For those of us old enough, there is the shoe phone from Get Smart.
To counter this the school needs adopt a “No Shoes Policy” which is easy to monitor and enforce.
But from another old 60’s movie, “The President’s Analyst”, there is the phone implanted in everyone’s ear shortly after birth. Give up, oomis1105, The Phone Company rules!!!
Even an “average” boy by the time he has turned 12 has read enough spy novels to be able to stash a cell phone out of reach of the most nosy Principal, Headmaster, or Menahel.
The “phone” he leaves in the pocket to be confiscated is actually a bugging device which he will then use to listen in on conversations in the administrator’s office!!!
LOL! I love “Get Smart.” -77
“i would like to break some news to you that when a school says NO PHONES, they mean no cellphone USAGE in school, they are no saying that a child shouldn’t have a cellphone. “
I think both sides have made their points. The original question was not whether or not there should eb cell phones in school, but whether or not the principal was out of line to randomly check the boys to see if they were complying with the rules. Bottom line, the rules are supposed to be followed and may be enforced.
Mods, how about giving some thought to closing this thread already. It is played out. Ad nauseum.
EDITED
oomis your post was edited, not because of anything objectionable but because I wanted some balance in who had the last word, so to speak.
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