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When a Rabbi sets a rule of no cellphones, and the students persist in using cellphones, it is demeaning to the Rabbi.
“”Why treat all the students as suspects?”
Did you fly recently?
Have you ever driven a commercial vehicle through a bridge or tunnel in NYC?
The head in the sand “ameich kulam tzadikim” approach, or as the army calls it “dont ask dont tell”, is the cause for a lot of problems. If there is a zero tolerance policy, then thats how it should be enforced, otherwise modify the policy. “Give them a finger, they take a hand” is quite appropo to high school boys.”
You don’t enforce a no cellphone policy as if the students are going to murder 100’s of innocents. Airport security and cellphones in Yeshiva’s have nothing to do with each other. Its comparing apples and oranges.
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you are all assuming that they broke the rules…if you KNOW for an absolute fact that a certain student has a cellphone…FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT…then and only then can you have them turn out their pockets. otherwise…there is no reason to treat students like prisoners returning from the yard!
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I totally agree with the principal.Hear this incident, kids start throwing smoke bombs and eggs in a boys yeshiva high school. One boy films it on his cell phone and than downloads it on Youtube for whole world to see. These cell phone are unecessary for high school kids during school hours. When they are responsible about using them we will talk.
haifagirl, I did not mean to imply that I think Yeshivah kids should be randomly drug tested (unless there is just cause, of course). I was using it as an example of a rule or law that is suspected of being broken, and the right of the head of the school to ensure that it does not happen again.
Bombmaniac, I hear what you are saying, also, but I strongly disagree with you. Just-a-guy said it well. When a student knows the rules and flouts them, it is demeaning to that trust and relationship you want him to have with his rebbie, and insults the rebbie. I suspect you might be quite a bit younger than I am, so perhaps that influences your approach to this subject. As an “ld lady” however, I look at years of experience watching young people of all types grow up, and they are mostly all the same. Maybe they are good kids, but they will always try to get away with something if allowed to do so. Sometimes that is not even a bad thing. But in this case, I am on the “erring on the side of caution” side of the fence.
Im all for schools not allowing children to have cell phones. Like Chops was saying one kid brings in a cell phone and goes online for the rest of the kids to see. Ive seen it myself in carpool. They were online and texting girls. But to go around and check pockets is going way too far. What are you teaching the kids?? It reminds me of when I was in high school the school had a policy of no knee socks only tights. The principal went around asking everyone to pick up their skirts to see if they were wearing socks or tights. Besides the tzenuit issue the whole thing was absurd. What happend to trust?? And yes you can show a kid trust too.
I’m for the ban, and fully stand behind this Principal. My son’s Mesivta (not in Brooklyn, of course), has this policy, and the boys for the most part totally respect it. My son doesn’t even want to have a cellphone.
We all went to HS without them, and survived quite well. Aside from the access to the internet, and texting capabilities, I don’t like the fact that a lot of kids use texting to cheat on exams.
Generally speaking, I oppose bans, but this is perhaps the exception to the rule.
The cell phone policy can be enforced without destroying the student’s privacy. Requiring anyone to empty pockets in front of others is a tactic of public humiliation.
Even in airport screenings which involves matters of life and death, you can ask for a private inspection. If a school needs to do inspections, then they can bring in an outsider who is not part of the community to do the inspection privately and only report to the administration whether the suspected item was found or not.
once again i saw nowhere in the first post about there being mass rule floutage at the school…you all are making it sound like this school is a bunch of bums…
Hey there Mr. LongBeach! It’s not a problem in third grade IT IS A PROBLEM IN HIGH SCHOOL! Don’t you know that? They’re texting all kinds of illicit things all day thereby causing the need for such a policy to begin with! The boys – even pretty decent ones – have become entangled with girls and vice-versa! Kids know no limits! Period! Stop blaming all the good policies as cause for kids going off the Derech! Certainly the search should not be in a demeaning way! Either another administrator should be present or whatever. But the policy as as important today as ever especially in high schools. It’s an epidemic! KUDOS to the principal who stands up for values and principles! He or she is thus SAVING KIDS FROM GOING OFF THE DERECH, to a degree!
No one said they are a bunch of bums. What was said is that this is the school policy, and the principal was enforcing it. If he felt the need to do so, there must have been some students who failed to adhere to the policy. No one bothers good kids for no reason, and unfortunately because there might be one bad apple, the whole bushel gets tainted in the process. it is called collateral damage. I am certain if no one used the phone inappropriately, it would not have sent up a red flag to the principal to be checking up on the students at random. And maybe it is not random – maybe he is checking on students who have caused a problem before. If they have nothing to hide, they should not be humiliated by being asked to turn out their pockets. That is NOT the same thing at all, as being searched in the airport.
certain collateral damage just isnt acceptable. if he has “probable cause” then im all for it…otherwise?…THEY ARENT PRISONERS!!!
as for “they have nothing to hide”…you have nothing to hide at the airport…would you still mind a complete strip search? i think so…
as for saving kids from going off the derech…i can gaurantee you no student is going off the derech from a cellphone alone. there must be an underlying issue that is causing his “off the derechness” and the phone is just a catalyst…so to subject the masses to such annoying and demeaning treatment for the benefit of a small group of kids who have other bigger problems…is just wrong! unless of course you took a vote…
Totally agree with Oomis and others that it is fine to restrict children from cell phone, but wrong to search them. However, if they are ever seen using them, then they can be permanently confiscated. (They can sign to this at beginning of year so there is no problem of gezel.)
I don’t allow my kids to have cell phone, and won’t until they are 18 and leaving home for sem or yeshiva. Parents need to monitor their kids verbal and written communication. I am not saying to eavesdrop, just to make it possible to know who they are talking to on a regular basis. If they have a cell phone, they can be talking to who knows who about who knows what, either by phone or text all the time. Kids are not old enough to have good judgment about this, and to have that freedom.
“You don’t enforce a no cellphone policy as if the students are going to murder 100’s of innocents. Airport security and cellphones in Yeshiva’s have nothing to do with each other. Its comparing apples and oranges.”
Remember, cell phones are not banned in yeshivos (perhaps we should clarify what type of yeshiva we are talking about?) because they are a distruptive to the classroon setting (which they may be as well), rather, because they are deemed dangerous to ones yiddishkeit. Apples and oranges?
basically this discussion boils down to this.
are we willing to let kids get spiritually damaged from their cellphones? or are we willing to potentially emotionally damage kids by treating them like inmates… pick your poison…
there IS no answer to the question, but everyone is welcome to their own opinions. (not that i wont shout ALL CAPS at you for posting yours…lol)
treating Yeshiva students like suspects can also be dangerous to their Yiddishkeit.
“You don’t enforce a no cellphone policy as if the students are going to murder 100’s of innocents. Airport security and cellphones in Yeshiva’s have nothing to do with each other. Its comparing apples and oranges.”
Remember, cell phones are not banned in yeshivos (perhaps we should clarify what type of yeshiva we are talking about?) because they are a distruptive to the classroon setting (which they may be as well), rather, because they are deemed dangerous to ones yiddishkeit. Apples and oranges?
Yes, apples and oranges. Nobody ever pushed a classroom full of Yeshiva students off the derech because a cell phone got past the door. But busloads, planeloads, etc., full of innocents have been murdered because of bombs. I stand by the apples and oranges comparison. If you think Yeshiva cellphone policy should be the same as airport security, you’ll push way more people off the derech than a cellphone.
“Nobody ever pushed a classroom full of Yeshiva students off the derech because a cell phone got past the door.”
Incorrect.
if a kid is going off the D a phone is the least of your worries.
does anyone here know anyone who went off the derech SOLEY BECAUSE OF A CELLPHONE? no other factors…beginning to end just a cellphone? id be interested to hear that story…
What’s the difference if it is the sole factor or not?
As long as it is a contributing factor, we need to be very worried about it.
“”Nobody ever pushed a classroom full of Yeshiva students off the derech because a cell phone got past the door.”
Incorrect.”
No Joseph, correct. Provide the Yeshiva, and the year that a cellphone got past the door and caused every student in that particular classroom to go off the derech.
I wholehartedly agree 1) that cellphones do not belong in school, 2) that a principal should enforce that policy, and 3) that cellphones are spiritually dangerous.
But to say that it is literally (not figuratively, but literally) like a bomb at an airport is the sort of thing that turns off Yeshiva students to their Yiddishkeit. They feel like they are being played for fools and that pushes them away.
yes we do need to be worried about it…no question about that. however…to what lengths are we willing to go to cut off one hydra head…it will just grow back…you arent taking care of the root of the problem, and as such i feel it is wrong to demean and inconvenience the rest (and majority i am sure) of bochurim in a yeshiva. if cellphones were the root problem…then go ahead…have pat downs and full body scans…but otherwise? youre just doing more damage than good.
More generally, I’d like to comment that the way to keep people on the path of Yiddishkeit is to show them that resisting the Yetzer Hara is the better way. Not simply to hide what the Yetzer Hara might lead them to. That might delay a path off the derech, but it will not prevent it. It will be prevented by showing them that there is a better way for them.
jag – Incorrect again.
One guy can bring down the whole class with his bad influence. And cellphones have demonstrably contributed to OTD issues.
Joseph- I didn’t say cellphones haven’t contributed to OTD issues, nor did I say one students bad influence couldn’t affect others.
What I did say was that no single occurence of a cellphone getting into a classroom ever caused every student in that classroom to go OTD, such that airport style security wouldn’t make sense.
You said that is incorrect. The factual statement “Nobody ever pushed a classroom full of Yeshiva students off the derech because a cell phone got past the door” would be factually incorrect if in fact there was an occasion where a cellphone got past a classroom door and the entire class went OTD. So, please provide the example.
Not an example of a cellphone being a bad influence, which I agree with. Not an example of someone with a bad attitude influencing others, which of course, happens.
Alternatively, you can choose your words more carefully and precisely.
For example, you might say something like this- I believe that the negative spiritual effects can be as dangerous as a bomb on an airplane, therefore we should have airport style (or hopefully better) security at Yeshivas to keep cellphones out.
Joseph- one can, and one has, are different.
jag – Are we dealing with semantics or real fact of life issues? Are we debating for the sake of debate or to understand life and death (physical or spiritual) issues?
Since you admit that a cellphone can and has been a bad influence on students (even if “only” as a contributing factor); and that student can then influence others; therefore there is a time and place when banning cellphones is appropriate. And once banned, enforcement is necessary.
Any disagreements?
Joseph- I am dealing with real life issues. You are the one who wrote “incorrect” when my statement was not incorrect.
Tell a Yeshiva student that a cellphone is spiritually dangerous and he’ll listen to you. Tell him it is exactly the same as a bomb and he’ll laugh at you.
granted enforcement is necessary…maybe we should follow the code of hammurabi with thieves and cut off their hands…certain punishments and preemptive measures are just too harsh
We are getting away from ourselves here. The simple facts are thus 1) there is a rule to have no cellphones in school 2) the principal is enforcing that rule by ensuring that the rule has been adhered to. PERIOD. It makes no difference if ANYONE went OTD here – we are talking about a RULE in school and how it is followed and how the principal follows up on it. There are no Constitutional rights of illegal search and seizure issues, here. This is a PRIVATE school. Only those who do not follow the rule need have any anxiety about being checked for “contraband.”
And it is not a case of whether the phone is good or bad for a student. Even if it is the best thing in the world (like non-Jews like to portray chazir and lobster), it is still assur to have it. Our kids are very much spoiled nowadays with all the naarishkeiten that they believe is so necessary for their existence – and that is OUR fault for giving it to them, in the first place. We got along just fine without these kuntzim, and it is time for them to do so, as well. At least while they are in school, anyway. Because THAT is the rule.
Joseph- I have said all along that the ban is appropriate and should be enforced. What I disagreed with was the suggestion that airport style security tactics are appropriate for enforcing such a ban. I explained why. You said “incorrect.”
In the Yeshiva I went to there was a no Cell phone rule but that is not the only problem in todays world
Bottom line. If there is a rule, the principal better enforce it.
Hashem is Everywhere no jphone is not totally wrong just plain wrong
Rules should be upfront and posted! It should be very clear to both the kids and the parents what the rules are.
That said it is inappropriate for kids to have a cell phone in school/yeshiva. Cells phones should be turned off and locked in the individual’s locker till they leave at the end of the day or take their lunch break and go off the premises. Coin phones should be available for student use during the school days and office phones should be available for emergencies.
Consequences should be clearly listed in the rules and not thought of as you go along such as the first time one is caught with a cell phone in school it will be confiscated and returned at the end of the day. The second time that same student is caught with a cell phone it will be confiscated and returned at the end of the week. The third time the student is caught with a cell phone it will be returned only to the parent of that individual.
I know of a school that had a special plastic organizer similar to a cosmetic or shoe organizer that they hung on a door in the office. When they confiscated a cell phone they put a label on the pocket with the student’s name, date and offense number in addition to when it was supposed to be returned. That is how they kept track of the offenses. It was also easy for the principal, Rosh and guidance counselor to easily see what was going on. If other children went into the office they clearly got the message that they weren’t kidding and were enforcing the rules.
By listing the consequences as well as the rules you are essentially allowing the student to choose their own consequence. In other words, if I break this rule I am choosing to have my cell phone confiscated for the day, or I am choosing to have my cell phone confiscated till the end of the week, or I am choosing to have my cell phone confiscated till my parents come down and retrieve it for me. They can’t blame the staff of the Yeshiva for the consequence, they can’t blame the staff for punishing them and they can’t blame the staff for being unfair. They can’t blame anyone but themselves because they would have known what would happen if they chose to break the rule.
Understand that if a parent allows a child to have a cell phone then the fact that he carries it to and from Yeshiva is an issue between the parents and the child. However once he is under the supervision of the Yeshiva he has to abide by the rules of the Yeshiva and that is important. You can’t control a child from allowing his friends whose parents do not allow their children to use cells from using it, or from going on the internet from doing so. So while on the property of the Yeshiva, the Yeshiva has the obligation to control what is in their power to control. It is also extreme chutzpah to have your cell phone on in the middle of class. It is as chutpadik as playing with a toy or listening to an ipod.
I didnt say that rules shouldnt be inforced all I am saying is they should think of better rules
kollelboy123, why do you think it is a bad rule?
Kollelboy, this IS a good rule, and they have ALREADY thought of better rules, believe me.
its a very good and reasonable rule…in this case however, the method of enforcement is a bit too harsh…but in general? why not?
I never said it is a bad rule but why cant they think of better rules in regard to Limudei Kodesh not about what they have even though yes a cell phone can access alot but internet and alot of other things are alot worse for boys Summary: There are alot more things that they can make rules about.
Guess what – the internet can be accessed through (TA DA !!!) one’s cell phone.
We must diffrentiate between having a cell phone and using it. Two years ago Shulamith Parents were lectured about the pitfalls of cell phones and texting. I asked the then principal, Rabbi Lieberman, if he was suggesting not having cell phones. The response was very clear. Outside of School cell phones should be considered MANDATORY for many safety reasons. In School phones are to be OFF.
” In School phones are to be OFF. “
And since we ALL know how VERY obedient all kids are…
Kollelboy I think you should start a new thread about Stupid School Rules.
I would but I am afraid of what Nivul Peh and Loshon Hora may come up and to oomis yes internet can be accessed through a cell phone but you can say dont use it costs to much then you will be listened to
Kollelboy, I am sure your intentions are pure, but I strongly believe you are mistaken. Kids waste money all the time, and they could not care less about it costing too much to use the intenet on the phone. Most of them have a cell plan that includes texting, anyway.
Kids use their phones to CHEAT during tests, by texting answers to each other (this has been demonstrated to be fact), and if you think that frum kids would never do that, then I have a lovely bridge I would be interested in selling you. There is absolutely no reason why kids should have cell phones available to them during school hours (recess or lunch period being the exception with which I would be comfortable). If they are NOT going to use them during class, then there is no reason for them to be on their person. If they would need them for an emergency, they could get their phones from the rebbie right away. Having to sumbit to random pocket checks, ensures that they have nothing they shouldn’t in their pockets, and that they do not have a SECOND phone stashed away after giving in the first one. Yeah, kids do that, too. The first phone was not even a usable one. It was a “beard.”
Everyone can have embarrasing items in their pockets such as dirty tissues.
If the situation becomes as serious as the life and death situations at airports, then metal detectors need to be installed. For complete searches, outside inspectors and private search areas will be needed.
Oomis kids who cheat on tests with cell phones will find a way to cheat even if they dont have a cell phone or texts without electricity (notes)
oomis…quick question just to get a perspective…i understand that you are against cellphones…and that is not the point. are you or are you not against random pocket searches?
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