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The Gemara (Sukkah 29a) says: ???? ????? ?? ???????
???? is ???, as per Rashi.
In the High Holiday liturgy, we say:
??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????
So the syllogism would look like this:
1. ??? is not to be brought into the sukkah
2. ??? is ????
3. Ergo, ??? is not to be brought into the sukkah
But if a person is exempt from sukkah by the very nature of being ????, why do we need the mishnah on 28a to tell us: ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????
Obviously, women are not ???? and they therefore need a separate exemption. If men are ???? and women are not, women are clearly better.
(There are alternative explanations that one could give, e.g. that women are also ???? but that’s not a p’tur – it’s just an issur to bring in ??? whereas the mishnah is giving an actual p’tur. One could ??????? also be mechalek between different types of ???. But the pashtus is as I said. And before everyone thinks I’m crazy, in the sefer ????? ?? ??? (p. 125) the following is quoted about ?’ ??? ?????:
?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???
He gives a different answer though.)
If I started a serious thread entitled “Proof that men are better than women” with real proofs from the Torah and Chazal that breached every concept of political correctness but nevertheless was almost unassailable from a Torah hashkafic viewpoint that ignored all the modern apologetics trying to explain away the so many open pesukim in Tanach, mishnas, gemoras and rishonim, would the CR go into an uproar? (Or is the more likely probability that the thread would be rejected?)
paa,
an adam is only compared to a cheres (pottery) when he’s dead he call cheres hanishbar when alive he’s an adam
Patur
Ironically some Chasidim hold Women arent allowed in the Sukkah. (I believe Munkatch is noheg like this, though I could be wrong on that point.)
Patur
I understand that women are better than men, but the fact that children are also specifically excluded from the sukkah ruins your argument. Are there not male children? And if there are but they have a different ?????? until when they become adults, what transformation happens?
Fun discussion for us, but some people take it too seriously.
What’s sad is that some people out there don’t understand that you can have different instructions and still be both important and equal. If you give a student more help than another student, is the first one more important? No, they are both important. The first one needs more than the other. That’s what people should understand, men spiritually need more mitzvos than women, but they are both important
Shmuel 1:1 And Chana prayed upon her heart.
so paa, if unmarried men are women then it would make them chayuv in sukkak, right?
We should start a Purim Torah thread.
Your premise is flawed. The davening says it’s a mashul. It’s not saying a man is like cheres, it’s saying it’s a similar concept.
PAA
Just because they are not ‘adom’ for not being married and for not being landowners, it does not make them women. Maybe they are not men and are instead ghosts, vampires, spirits, or ghouls.
thats why we dont sit in the succah when it rains. as cheres we will fall apart. although I dont know why we would need a ptur of mitztaer when it rains if we have the more general ptur of sakanna, of dissolving in the rain. perhaps the seforim discuss this.
You don’t believe for a minute that women are better than men. If you did, you wouldn’t be shooting your mouth off. You’d say, I’m inferior, I’ll stay quiet.
Most of the men who carry on about the alleged superiority of women are baalei gaavah. Their thinking in terms of superiority and inferiority is due to their thinking that they are superior. They know it’s wrong so they try to compensate with what really is condescension of women.
So THATS why women are always shooting off their mouth. It comes from a position of superiority. I always knew I could count on the coffee room to teach me something new every day.
–apushatayid–
thank you for the example of a man shooting his mouth off
By the way, I didn’t get what you were saying in your first comment. Mind rephrasing?
sure
on yom kippur we say a person is like pottery, however that’s only after he’s dead (broken pottery) heKs never compared to unbroken pottery
so bthe similarity to pottery only starts after death
so in essence one learns out that a meis cant be brought into a sukkah
How old are you? The fruit punch room is down the hall.
You need the Mishna for before ???? ???.
PAA
You still haven’t explained to me how an unmarried male child fits the description. He’s not a man, because he’s not married. Yet, he still needed to be specifically excluded from the Mishnah. So you basically used circular reasoning to tell me that my issue with women doesn’t apply, because we aren’t talking about that.
What about the male children being explicitly mentioned in the Mishnah about sukkah? Clearly, according to your reasoning, they too are not ????.
FriendInFlatbush, I think you lost the sequence.
This statement, that every man is a Cheress, is going according the Shita that ???? ??? ???? ??”?, because really it says of the Talmid Chacham who borrows money that he is a Cheress.
Patur Aval Assur,
My answer to that is that you are correct, male children are not ????, being that the liturgy says that ??? is ???? and as per the gemara in Yevamos, unmarried men are not ???.
So that would mean, according to your OP logic, that unmarried men are better than married men. And what is the difference between a married man and an unmarried man? Why, what a horrible thing to say about women, Patur Aval Assur!! 🙂
“unmarried men are not ???.”
in light of this pshat, how are we to understand the passuk “adam ki yamus baohel” both the pashut pshat as well as the drashos on the passuk.
The only proof is that a man started this foolish thread. Maybe we should say women are better than man.
owl,
The only proof is that a man started this foolish thread.
1. Are we definitely sure that Patur Aval Assur is a man?
2. If this thread is so foolish, why are you taking it so seriously?
??? ???? ????? ????
Was this thread started by a man, woman, ghost, vampire, spirit, or ghoul?
He is also compared to Chatzir Yavesh (dead grass) so he is kosher as schach. This way he can at least lie on top of the sukkah for the women inside to get schar. (Pottery though is passel schach so I think he must lie there until Eliyahu comes to resolve whether he is kosher or not.)
I think it’s a shame that 😉 🙂 🙁 but ????.
What?
We can use symbols such as 😈, 👱🏿, 🐈, 🇺🇸, 🦈, ✡️, 👟, but simple letters become question marks.
In the future, letters will be obsolete.
As will be talking with our mouths and looking at people face-to-face.
The CR is merely preparing us for the future.
😠
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