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According to the Shabbos Hagadol Drasha I went to today: Avraham Avinu served tongue with mustard. Mustard is kitniyos. Therefore Avraham Avinu was Sephardic and ate kitniyos.
(the speech was about lashon hara)
🙂
is it not obvious if he was ashkenazi He would be called Avrum Avinuwitz
Torah
That only proves that his guests were sefardim.
The issur of Kitniot only came about much later by the rabbis
Hazal ate rice and gebrokts. They also say it is preferred to use romaine lettuce for marror, and did a bunch of things many don’t do.
WIY: why blame Sephardim? That’s racist.
RebeDebbie: Im not sure what you are reading. WIY is not blaming sefardim for ANYTHING. The OP made statement about Avrahom Avinu and he is contradicting it.
Look up SA O’CH 464 MB s’k 5, that mustard is ‘like’ kitniyus included in the issur but not really kitniyus.
I just noticed, the Baer Hetev 464,2 brings from the Taz that the Rokeach, an ashkanaz, allows eating mustard on Pesach provided it was not ground in a chometzdig dish.
It was ערב פסח before חצות.I think.
“It was ערב פסח before חצות.I think.”
The malach said this time next year Avraham will have a son
And Yitzchak was born on pesach
Even if Avrohom avinu did eat kitniyos that doesn’t matter due to the fact that he lived before Kabbalas Hatorah and before the yom tov of Pesach even existed.
Even if we all know it says that Avrohom avinu kept the entire Torah
Don’t forget he fed the malachim basar bechalv as well
He ate? He only served!!!
In chumash and in bava metziya it says avraham didnt eat anything – not even the mustard so he was 100 ashkenazi. The malachim….
Avraham didn’t eat the mustard ether
The malachim didn’t eat either. Probably because they didn’t mish.
On that note, why didn’t Avraham and Yitzchak take a plane to the Akeida?
The couldn’t get through security with a knife and fire.
Not eating mustard on Passover is like saying “you can’t say the word ‘lighter’ on Shabbat because you might come to touch a lighter and then you might come to your in a fire on Shabbat”.
I don’t know why YO feels the need to denigrate Ashkenazi minhagim.
Although I could probably take a guess…
Take a guess
Yabia Omer i think the following passuk apples to your response about muktza (Koheles 1:16 מְעֻוָּ֖ת לֹֽא־יוּכַ֣ל לִתְקֹ֑ן). Based on your logic we cant say pig or bacon because we might come to eat it. Or maybe we dont have to practice the harchokos for niddah as we know we cant have relations with a niddah.
Am I to understand that sefardim do not believe in gedarim? Let us understand that kitniyot is not a 20th or 21st century issur but dates back to the kadmonim. Hamon Am was not well versed in the torah so the chachamim placed many safeguards so as to avoid problems. Since it was easy to confuse one type of flour with another and chametz is an issur kares a safefguard was put in place. The fact that the sephardic community did not need these safeguards could very well be that Rice and other kitniyot were never mixed with the 5 grains whereas in other communities it was common.(See MB Siman 453 SK 6).No problem but why extend it EVEN FURTHER to mustard??
YA: What Mustard do you think it was referring to? our mustard? or mustard in its original form which is a seed that is ground into powder similar to sesame seeds. Just like sesame seeds were included so was mustard seeds.
Adam Harishon was a vegan
Proof the Avos were ashkenazim. If they were sfardim Yaakov would’ve been named Avraham. Cracks me up every time…
You mean Esav would’ve been named Avraham. He was first.
He new how to differentiate between grains
There’s also nothing mentioned about checking the p’ri ha’eitz for bugs.
“Proof the Avos were ashkenazim. If they were sfardim Yaakov would’ve been named Avraham. Cracks me up every time…”
The Tanaiim named after living grandparents.
Between Hillel and Rebbi Hakadosh there is Gamliel and Shimon leapfrogging over 4 or 5 generations.
Rebbi Yishmael Ben Elisha was named after his grandfather, Yishmael Ben Elisha the Kohen Gadol.No problem but why extend it EVEN FURTHER to mustard??
It was not extended “even further”. There is a common belief that the original takanah was to forbid specific named species, but there is no basis for this belief in any pre-20th century source. Every pre-20th century posek, as far as I know without exception, says that the takanah was against all species that fit the criteria, and one of those criteria is that all species that grow in pods are forbidden. Therefore, since mustard grows in pods, it is forbidden. End of story.
Uh oh. Cacao beans grow in pods. No more chocolate on Pesach.
It’s a sign of respect to name after one’s living parents. Can you think of a greater source of Kibud and of Nachas?
YA: According to sefardim; not according to the ashkenazim.
Cacao “beans” are not beans; they grow on trees. And do not really grow in pods, any more than pomegranates do.
Another proof Avram/Avraham’s family was Sefaradi: Nachor was named after his GF (Even if he wasn’t first)
Not ALL Sefardim name after the living.
Milhouse, the thing that contains the cacao beans is called a pod. The thing that contains pomegranate arils is not. If, as you say, the criterion for kitniyos is that the seeds grow in a pod, please explain why corn (maize) and sunflower seeds are kitniyos.
Actually I’m more inclined to believe that A”A zatzal would abhore the entire concepts of Ashkenazi and Sepharadi especially the way they have been weaponized which btw is Over Lo Tisgodidu. So the joke running through this thread is the dust of an Issur DiOraisa.
What it’s called is irrelevant; what matters is what it is. The thing is clearly not a pod, it’s exactly the same as a pomegranate’s rind. That English-speakers call it a pod is no more relevant than the fact that they call the seed a bean.
Growing in a pod is not the only criterion. It is sufficient but not necessary. Rice and buckwheat are both kitniyos because they are cooked as porridge, which after all is the reason for the takanah in the first place.
What a great proof. You’ve completely convinced me. I will now become sephardic.
Correction: What something is called can be relevant, but does not define what it is. For instance, the whole takanah of kitniyos was made in the first place because all kinds of cooked grains are called “porridge” (דייסא in Aramaic, קאשע in Yiddish), so if a rice or lentil porridge is permitted then people will think all porridge is, including wheat or barley porridge. So they forbade anything with which porridge is made. And since many of those things grow in pods they forbade everything that grows in pods. But that doesn’t mean that when someone comes along and sees a pomegranate or a cacao fruit and says “Hey, let me call that a pod”, the takanah automatically extends itself to that! Now if people started calling chocolate “porridge”, then we’d have a serious shayla; but they don’t, so we don’t.
People make porridge out of sunflower seeds?
No, but sunflower seeds grow in pods.
Is mustard a legume?
Sunflower seeds do not grow in pods. Check out a Youtube video on harvesting sunflower seeds if you don’t believe me.
Mentioned above the Rokeach who says mustard is allowed for Pesach provided not ground in a dish of chometz.
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