Professional help (marriage, life)

Reb steve
Miriam Yerushalmi runs a network of volunteers for exactly what you need called S.A.N.E. Save a Neshama endowment

Hi,
I offer life coaching free of charge or donation based
You can reach me at [email protected]

reliefhelp dot org

Someone could help you look for a private sponsor. It could be an open ended loan.

Sorry I just thought I have to add that really, people who needed this kind of guidance always turned to their local rabbi/ rebbetzin (assuming they had a great marriage etc. themselves.) it’s a real machla we have today, that many people’s first port of call is “mental health professionals” Who are trained by goyim/ goyishe courses etc. (as if they’re so successful in marriage/ life…) Granted, there’s a need for therapists etc. When someone is actually ill, but for direction in life- we have the Torah! And people who live it. You can hear more from Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin who is writing a book on Torah self help tools that he used to be happy even in prison….

Within Chabad we have a mashpia system set up, where everyone is encouraged to have a mashpia as a life coach and go to person, and also to be mashpia to others…

CS:

You are doing a great disservice to the public. Much of what you say is mistaken, and you should be taking sheker seriously. There are also misperceptions. Allow me to clarify.

You average Rov/Rebbetzin is either untrained or undertrained, and generally inexperienced to assist with a troubled marriage. Ignoring whether they have a good marriage themselves, there is a huge amount of information that training provides. Whether this comes from a secular or Jewish text, professor, teacher, or training program is inconsequential.

Now, you also need to recognize what most gedolei Yisroel already do. There is a ballooning growth of frum mental health professionals, who are not just professionally trained and experienced, but work together with Rabbonim and Gedolei Yisroel all the time. Many of these professionals convene at conferences like Nefesh International, and the mental health Track at the Agudah Convention. They are in constant contact with Daas Torah, mutually providing their experiences so that the therapists can maintain their Torah connection while providing responsible services, and Rabbonim giving advice and paskening shailos are doing so from a educated perspective. Instead of declaring these therapists being in ignorance of Torah, why don’t you connect with some and discover how wrong you are. Then ask the rabbonim what they think about the professionals.

A Rov/Rebbetzin without such background and experience can be among those who give dangerous guidance and advice. It is too often that marriages are torn apart by the ignorant advice from the Rov who considers their erudition in Torah a qualification to behave as a therapist.

R Twersky’s “Dear Rabbi, Dear Doctor” book (last published 2016) list these agencies about various psychological issues without specifying which is which. maybe someone wants to look into them and add descriptions

echo 845 425 9750
relief 718 431 9501
bikur cholim
AA
Mask 718-758-0400
Shalom Task Force 718-337-3700
JAADD (Jewish Ass for ADD) 718 435 0101
Nefesh 201 530 0010
Ohel 718 851 6300
Counterforce 718 854 7730
JFCS 718 435 5700
Yitti Leibel Help line 718 help now

In Israel there’s an organization called Or Habayit – one in the South and one in the North, you can try that if it’s relevant to you

I don’t see why CS is under criticism for this. Everyone I know with marriage problems consults rabbonim. Often the perspective of a daas torah provides solutions and communication skills that the couple hadn’t thought of.

Therapists are trained by the way non jews view marriage. Often they’ll commiserate with the perspective of “what am I getting out of this marriage” and other modern tendencies. I’ve heard horror stories from therapists, very dangerous advice.

Most shul rabbonim double as marriage counselors. That’s just the reality.

People came to rav pam, rav shlomo zalman, and many others all the time with sholom bayis problems. Running to a therapist as a first resort is far more risky than going to a rov who knows at least one of the parties involved.

before therapy I would recommend reading “Dear Son” by Rabbi Eliyohu Goldschmidt, and your wife should read “Dear Daughter” by him.

HaRav Volbe zt”l had a group of students he trained to be mashgichim.
He told them, “We are guidance counselors – NOT therapists.
A student who needs professional help should be directed to the proper doctor.”

Ysiegel, do you have specific references where your rebbe refers to professionals? Cs doesn’t seem to appreciate your words

Sorry have had a busy day… just to clarify as there were questions, as I said originally, if someone is ILL in any way, that’s chochma bagoyim taamin, and a Rav will refer if the case is out of his expertise etc. No problem with any of that.

Op isn’t suggesting that he’s clinically depressed, or has deep seated trauma that needs subconscious treatment. He’s looking for life advice/ direction and our first port of call should be Torah.

My parents started off marriage on a left foot. Since therapy wasn’t the trend, they obviously went to their local rabbi. He actually gave them bad advice which wasn’t helpful so they did their research and found rabbi ezriel taubers book “to become one” and lectures, along with alot of hard work, did wonders. They also found a different rav who helped them out and still guides them today.

Today, they would be strongly encouraged to go to therapy… and that’sa tragedy. Therapy isn’t always successful, you have to find the right match etc. And the ideology isn’t Jewish. So my point is, try Torah first for life advice.

CS:

I read your subsequent comments as well as your rejoinder to me. All I can say is that you are digging yourself in deeper. There are realities that you may choose to deny, but they are nevertheless fact. The current training for rabbonim (there are few exceptions) does not include giving advice for personal problems. In fact, there are several mechanisms in place to reduce the ineffectiveness of rabbonim in this regard. There are several institutes that offer training for rabbonim to assist them. The reality is that many people will approach their rov and/or rebbetzin with such issues. And they need to be capable of guiding them appropriately. Yes, there are situations that they can probably handle. But they are first responders, and must be equipped to guide them to the right professionals and resources. The Agudah under guidance from the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah takes this position. Many of the chassidishe rebbes are connected with various professionals. Even many roshei yeshivos are similarly connected.

Your complaint about your doctor operating outside his domain – that’s plainly foolish. Your doctor was pointing out that your stress level is affecting your health, and that a practical approach is to destress. Many doctors do that, and it is well within their domain.

Your diatribe against the frum mental health professionals being basically goyish trained that deliver those values to their clientele is a malicious accusation and one that is beyond false. I suggest you prepare a method of asking mechila of the hundreds of mental health professionals that are yere’im and shleimim, dedicated to promoting Torah value to those that you cannot help. I bet you can find a therapist or two whose values you might question. I know a mashpia or two who are menaces to the Klal, and certainly NOT what the Rebbe ZT”L had in mind when he brainstormed that idea.

I suggest you speak to several of these frum mental health professionals. Visit their conferences, attend their shiurim, and even test them on their Torah knowledge. Then see what the Gedolei Yisroel say. Once you’ve done that, express your opinions. A bit of truth wins over the conjecture and grandstanding.

Ok I’m willing to be coerced tlik. Hear me out.

I’m generally happy because I’ve internalized hakoras hatov, and excited because I’m blessed to be a Yid.

I don’t harbor resentment or grudges because I’ve internalized that Hashem is the One who did it, and He has my best interests in mind, not other people.

I don’t get easily angered, and when I do I forgive easily. I’m working to get to the point where I don’t get angry at all… and the tools for that are is that yes, everything that happens to me SHOULD happen, and is not an injustice because Hashem is in charge. And He only desires my good.

Fear and anxiety posted above.

I have a happy marriage BH because I’ve internalized that we’re two halves of one Neshama, and that means that if one of us isn’t happy, we’re both not happy. Taking care of my spouse is my priority in ahavas yisrael. The importance Hashem places on sholom bayis, which is the source of bracha in the home. Also, the importance of not hurting others as in onaas Devarim etc.

I’m productive as long as it doesn’t affect my health, because I’ve internalized that I’m here for a mission and want to accomplish as much as I can. On the flip side, if I can’t be active, I’m comforted by the fact that Hashem has wrought this, so right now, serving Him means accepting the lack of productivity with joy.

On the flip side, I was once referred by a doctor to a therapist because I was in a state of agony. She tried cbt on me which I found absolutely meaningless. In the end, she was so concerned by the agony she saw that she reported to the doctor to make sure I wasn’ta risk to myself. Actually, even though I was in great pain, I never became suicidal, because I’ve internalized the concept of Olam Haba, and so realized that suicide wouldn’t be a good solution…. It would just make things much worse. After that, I dismissed the therapist, and went to my mashpia. My mashpia was able to give Hashem centered hadracha based on personal experience as well as Torah knowledge, that helped me to find a lot of comfort
and strength to deal with the pain.

So… if your frum mental health professionals train people in the above ideals (which my impression is that they don’t) then I stand corrected tlik.

Corrected not coerced

And, that’s the reason why so many people were rooting for him to begin with. Because they came to do chessed by visiting etc, and ended up being uplifted by him. So they devoted themselves to his cause out of inspiration.

The little I know,

“You continue to castigate the professionals as people who deliver goyishe values to their clientele. That is parently false.”

I think you and CS may be addressing different cases. You seem to be describing a scenario where a frum couple seeks advice from a rav, who refers them to a hand-picked, well known therapist who shares our community’s values. CS seems to be describing a scenario where the couple bypasses the rav and goes to an unvetted therapist.

“In fact, the true professional does not impose their values on clients. And even more important, the professionals learned their science from the goyishe resources, יש חכמה בגוים, but have not subscribed to their values.”

It’s interesting that when it comes to rabbonim, you openly admit that they may have flaws and limitations, but by “true professionals” (what does that mean?), you give a glowing and uncritical haskamah. Are therapists not also flawed and limited people?

“And I challenge you to locate any of them who bypass Torah value for the goyishe standards as you accuse.”

Again, you seem to be taking a very small, handpicked subset of all therapists. CS is not. OOT is not going to be filled with frum therapists, kal vechomer Random College Town with the Chabad house being the only synagogue.

“My exposure is quite different, and your accusations are pathetic and baseless.”

Why do you assume that CS has no “exposure” of her own, or that your “exposure” is de facto legitimate while hers is not?

As a general comment to this thread, I think way too much emphasis is placed on it being the rabbi or therapist’s burden to push the magic buttons that fix marriage difficulties. If spouses come in with a desire to make things better, then a rabbi, a therapist, an outsider’s perspective, books by Rabbi Twersky, etc. can all be helpful. If there’s no desire to make things better, then even the best rav or therapist is unlikely to help much.

As far as saying sholom Mordechai is an anomaly, that’s such a cop out. What’s so cool about him is that he’s not a tzadik or Rebbe, he was a regular businessman. When faced with an overwhelming crisis, instead of taking the easy route- playing victim, sulking in depression, he turned inwards and asked, what does Hashem want from me now? What’s expected of me. He put in the work, and he got amazing results. Anyone can do it, you just have to realize that Torah is truly our life and be willing to work at it with Torah guidance as needed.

Avram:

You have a point that CS and I are addressing different scenarios. Perhaps. Meanwhile, CS has taken the liberty of presenting a position in which professionally trained therapists are imparting goyishe values, anti-Torah to their clients, and are to be reserved fpor only certain cases. And adding that the average Rov is well qualified to deal with all but a few severe situations. These accusations are not just offensive but patently untrue.

There is a valid point the tri-state area of the northeast has sizable numbers of frum professionals, which is not the case OOT. The significance of this disparity is somewhat less in the era of teletherapy. There are unvetted therapists, though I am not sure what the vetting process might be and who would oversee this. I would safely say that a great many of the frum mental health professionals in the tri-state area regularly work alongside rabbonim and are thus vetted. And one might also hear from these rabbonim of those professionals who should not be patronized. So I characterized “true” professionals as not having been in that last category.

I completely believe that Torah can nurture healing and health. That is not a novel concept, nor is it a matter of debate. I applaud anyone that can utilize Torah in all of its facets to bring about improvement in anything. I do believe that Torah is the root of all knowledge, whether the sciences, or anything else. But that doesn’t guarantee that one can extract all of this from the Torah. Much of that is part of the hidden aspect of Torah, and we are stuck deriving this from the sciences. And we should bear in mind that some our greatest have lauded the discoveries of science. I call attention to the Rambam, and to the Ramban, who spoke of this openly.

I have grown to be amused by the generalizations about psychology that are touted by those not trained in the field. Such things as the “selfish approach”, and the imposing of goyishe values on clients. Conclusions and generalizations of this sort are foolish, and reflect a dearth of information.

I am quite thrilled that CS was able to find relief and strength in Torah, whether emunoh, bitachon, whether sifrei mussar, chassidus, or Rabbi Twersky’s books. Those are wonderful resources. But they will not help the masses of marital and psychological problems, even with rabbinical guidance. The need for professionals, as recognized by the greatest rabbonim among us, is far greater in both magnitude and volume than the rabbinate is equipped to handle. As I noted earlier, the Rov might serve well as a first responder. Some situations should remain in front of the Rov. Others should be moved on to the professional. And the treating therapist, if frum, is likely a good stop to assume the case in its entirety. Regardless, most of those I know have a Rov ready for guidance should there be a need, and many are regular “chavrusas” of rabbonim, utilizing them in a supervisory capacity. I once heard Rabbi Twersky say (I think it’s in one of his books) that Moshe Rabbeinu stopped at 10 (Aseres Hadibros). Had he continued, number 11 would have been “Thou shalt not generalize”.

TLIK, I’m also just curious, since you have such a different perspective of therapy then me, how you would explain this phenomenon:

The people I know personally who have been in therapy for years, and wax poetic over how helpful the therapy is, are not happy people. When asked, one relative said, “Well I guess it’s a journey.” And they pay more and more money to continue to get to their inner peace…

Whereas the people I look up to who have had their share of hardships in life and used Torah as their guide, are happy empowered people. And they’re not shelling out all the therapy bucks either. This may not be everyone’s experience but I have noticed this. I wonder what you think about it.

I completely agree with you that there are many conditions that require medical treatment like psychiatric disorders etc.

But therapy has become the new “in” thing for anyone struggling with life problems in general, low moods resulting from low self worth etc. And many of these can be addressed with Torah perspective given from someone who loves what he says.

Regarding my experience with people who are in therapy for years and have still not reached Serenity etc in contrast with those who use Torah, it just hit me that a possible reason could be because therapy starts off with the notion that the suffering person is a victim/ survivor of someone else’s cruelty. This is a quite unsettling notion. Then they spend many years in therapy trying to regain their power and control over their life and that’s very tough.

Whereas with a Torah perspective, whatever happens to you, you are not a victim as it’s in your best interests. How and why, we’re not always meant
to understand immediately. And we also know that if we work on ourselves to see it this way, we will end up seeing the good in this physical world. This is very empowering. Of course it takes work, but ultimately one ends up elevated, instead of living as a survivor

But I will grant you TLIK that therapists have several advantages: this is their parnassa so they focus on their clients and have ample time to give them etc. They also are trained in different conditions and can hopefully (not always) differentiate between a medical need and psychological need etc. This is lacking by Rabbanim who can’t grant ample time to many people to really understand what the real issue is and meet with them a set amount of time weekly for as long as they need etc.

Luckily there are already people who have thought of this and are planning a Torah training alternative to therapy course.