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1. goyim
2. assignments do Shabbos night
3. 2 finals on the same day on Friday
4. running home to get home on time for Shabbos
anyone else? sorry im just getting upset because have so much do tomorrow and shabbos starts early!!
Getting late to class because there wasn’t enough time b/w classes to Ashair Yatzar after using the restroom
Though dunno if it’s any easier at Touro and this was when I was just learning how to do it and didn’t know that you can walk and bracha at the same time
Yes it is a challenge. And you didn’t even mention missing class on yom tov, or tests on chol hamoed.
These issues will most likely follow you into your working life too, unless you can work exclusively in a frum environment that revolves around the frum calendar. Ok, not the tests on Friday issue, but deadlines right before or after shabbos/yom tov, working late Fri afternoons. Short Fridays are always hectic. I hope you figure out how to “juggle” now, it will be a great skill to have all of your life. Hatzlacha!
1. goyim
2. assignments do Shabbos night
3. 2 finals on the same day on Friday
4. running home to get home on time for Shabbos
anyone else? sorry im just getting upset because have so much do tomorrow and shabbos starts early!!
I not sure I understand this and I went to Touro a long time ago.
1. Goyim Many Goyim attend Touro they just may not be in your class or division.
2. Assignments due on Shabbos night. This can be resolved by not waiting to the last minute to submit your assignments. Speak to the Dean of students and or EEO as this maybe a civil right violation.
3. 2 finals on the same Friday- You are suppose to have studied the work prior to the day of the test.
4. Running home to get home prior to Shabbos- You signed up for the course and know how much time you needed to get home.
I will admit that it was easier to daven Mariv at Touro then it was at CUNY but then I only went to college at night during the day I was in Bais Medrash.
My youngest is in a private college.
Goyim, yes but she grew up in a small New England town and is used to being a minority.
Assignments due Shabbos Night….not an issue, has never happened to her, those due to be submitted electronically are due Sunday by 6PM. College rule to encourage Catholics to go to mass Saturday night or Sunday morning.
2 Finals on the same day……college permits all students to reschedule finals if you have more than one the same day. BTW, it was the same when I went to University and Law School
Running home to make Shabbos. Except for her first semester when she had a 9AM class, she has been able to schedule NO Friday classes.
A visit to the University registrar when she enrolled ensured that all her professors receive lists of yuntif and that they are excused absences. The school automatically videotapes the classes, as they are also offered on-line. She then can easily catch the missed class and is given an opportunity to turn work in after yuntif with no penalty. Only downside in missing class and watching video is inability to ask professors questions during a lecture.
BTW>>>she isn’t rushing to our home, she has an apartment 5 minutes from school. Same thing I did when in school eons ago.
1. If you don’t like goyim, try Olam ha-ba – not goy free but less of a problem. The world is full of goyim. Live with it.
2. You can schedule your own classes. No one assigns you to a specific class is college.
3. Unless the assignment was given Friday afternoon due on Motsei Shabbos (very weird, professor don’t work then either), you can always do your assignment early.
4. The rest is covered by the “reasonable accomodation” rules from various state and federal civil rights act. However you do have to ask – in advance and as early as possible.
You forgot the biggest problem – “IT WILL HURT THE SHIDDUCH”, although almost all the teachers in my daughters school this year (who is in 12th grade) have been telling my wife and I that Touro is no good either. One teacher just said to us a PTA, well you know, there was just a story of a girl running off with a professor at Touro. I told her, that may be, but there are also stories of molestation in some yeshivas, so does that mean I shouldn’t send my sons to yeshiva? I think she may still be in the ICU as her bubble was popped.
How do you guys expect to be functioning members of society in the working world if you have a problem with secular colleges?
I went to a secular college
I rarely had classes on Fridays and if I did it ended by noon
never had any finals on Fridays
I never had any assignments due friday night, If there was a class on Yom Tov, the professors gave you an excused abensence and never assingned any exams for that day
As far as Non-Jews. there are non-jews everywhere. If you go out and get a job you will likely work with non-jews.Deal with it. Better to learn to deal with it in College than call your boss a stupid goy
- Believe it or not, unless you’re planning on becoming a Rebbe/Morah for your entire life, you’re going to deal with goyim on a regular basis in the course of your work. I’m not sure why having goyim in your classes would be a such a terrible thing in that light. Unless you’re incredibly susceptible to peer pressure and head out to bars with them, your interactions will probably be limited to discussing classwork.
- You can always claim for religious reasons you cannot work on Saturday. Most schools are very liberal and will bend over backwards to accommodate other religions. Believe it or not, the world isn’t full of anti-Semites out to getcha.
- Does it run in to Shabbos? If yes, see above. If no, what’s the issue exactly? When my uncle was in medical school, he would finish his final then walk home for an hour because it was too close to Shabbos to take a taxi. And this is in the 60s, when people were afraid to wear a yarmulka in class and there was no “frum option” for the most part. Stop being such a sissy.
- Nu? You deal with it. Before we were married, my wife would get ready at 6am on Fridays, go to her job, then come home with less than an hour until candle-lighting.
The world isn’t some pretty plastic frum bubble that we can all live in (at least not until Moshiach comes). There’s a goyishe velt and the majority of us cannot help but interact with it. If going to Touro instead of a different college is an option, kol hakavod. But for most people it’s not. And even people in Touro end up working in non-frum places too. I’ve even heard Rebbeim telling people not to go to Touro, as in a goyish school you know to keep your distance from social events, but in a frum school you may end up with the wrong crowd.
Baruch Hashem we live in a time where it’s more possible than ever to be frum. Baruch Hashem we don’t have to hide our Yiddishkeit in the streets. Baruch Hashem rather than getting fired every Sunday, an employer can be in deep trouble for not accommodating a frum employee. Baruch Hashem we can even go to college and find well paying jobs, instead of either being rejected for our long skirts or peyos. Baruch Hashem attending a college doesn’t mean that we have to reject halacha.
Repeat after me: “Instead of complaining about the choices I made in my life, I will thank Hashem that I am able to make those choices.”
OMG – Goyim 🙂 Angels and Ministers of grace defend us!!
The rest of the Jewish working world Lives with getting home an hour or less before Shabbos. Figure it out or quit and become a Gannenet.
P.S. I also went to a secular college and never had any of these issues.
Yserbius,
Very well said.
As I’ve said before in other threads, if you think college is hard, wait until you get into the real world.
It is possible to avoid these things in the real world. Almost everyone I know including myself does. You can live in EY or have a job that involves working only or mainly with Yiddin or working from home. Plenty of people do.
It is definitely always better to go to school or work in a Frum environment if possible – and not for the reasons mentioned. Even if you do ultimately end up having to work with goyim (which you might not), at least during your college years you won’t have to.
“and didn’t know that you can walk and bracha at the same time”
I believe that actually it is a problem according to halacha (if you’re walking to go somewhere as opposed to pacing while davening). I know a lot of people do it, but I think it is either out of lack of knowledge or habit. I have a problem with the second one, but I am trying to work on it.
There is no actual halachic prohibition to walk while reciting the blessing of Asher Yatzar. You are even allowed to walk while reciting the Shema (not the first verse).
I, at CUNY Law School, have had 2 assignments that were due on Shabbos day at 12 PM, with Shabbos commencing shortly after 4 PM on Friday. In both cases, I asked for and received permission to submit the assignments by 11:59 on Saturday night.
This past erev Shabbos, I had an optional review for a final that was scheduled to end at 4. When I requested that it be taped for me, the professor refused but rescheduled it to go from 1:30 to 3, and advised me that I should feel free to leave early. Nevertheless, I informed her that I didn’t want to cut it so close and did not attend, requesting instead that someone send me the notes. An email was sent to the entire class requesting that someone share his or her notes with me. Thus far, no one has done so, even though the final is tomorrow.
Yom Tov is obviously an issue when attending college, even Brooklyn College, which is 1/3 Jewish. Nu, so they will make accommodations.
There was one semester in college where, through no fault of my own, I had a class that conflicted with Shabbos and I had to leave early every week in the winter. That was extremely unpleasant. But in general one can avoid such classes. (In my case, the timing was changed after I had already registered for that class).
Another issue could be yichud. For example, if you are talking an exam by yourself due to having missed it on yom tov, and the proctor is the opposite gender, and they put a sign on the door saying, “DO NOT ENTER. TESTING IN PROGRESS” and no one would come in because they have such good manners. Or meeting with a professor in the professor’s office – in some cases, the door should be left open. Certainly if meeting with the dean and no one would enter her office without knocking.
So in City Tech, which I started last Monday, I have a professor in “Philosophy of Law” who publicly stated, in front of the class, with me sitting in the front row, with my long beard, etc. that in his opinion the Exodus from Egypt never happened, and other things that are forbidden to hear and forbidden to repeat. And I will have to put up with this guy until the end of May. At least let him be embarrassed to say such things when there is an obviously religious person in the class. After all, I do not raise my hand in class and publicly advertise my beliefs regarding same-gender marriage.
edited
I don’t think you are allowed to attend this class.
Nu, so I was edited by the mods. OK. Do you want to edit the Torah also?
Editing a comment does not mean the moderator thinks the part removed is necessarily wrong. It means the moderator thinks it should not be posted on the CR. -100
I am not allowed to attend this class? It is a mandatory class for me to become a paralegal. There are two versions of the class that are offered – one with this low-life clown on erev Shabbos, and another with a different professor on Shabbos.
I am not allowed to attend this class? It is a mandatory class for me to become a paralegal.
I said I don’t think so. Go ask a competent posek.
Quite frankly, the apikorsus that I posted in the name of my professor [that the Exodus never happened] should be more offensive to you, mods, than the part of my post which you took out. I am actually surprised that you left that part in, since it is 100% apikorsus. But OK.
Well, I only attended one class so far, and I do not know if this clown will continue with his comments in the future. Really, his comments are not necessarily relevant to the teaching material.
Obviously, if the rabbi is haredi, he will say that it is assur to attend a class where the professor spews heresy out of his mouth.
But in this case I need this class for my degree, and the only other option [to take it with a different prof] is on Shabbos. Maybe I should communicate to the prof that his uncalled-for comments make me uncomfortable? But he is probably already aware of that.
Obviously, if the rabbi is haredi, he will say that it is assur to attend a class where the professor spews heresy out of his mouth.
Do non haredi rabbis have a different Shulchan Aruch?
If there were no other option other than the Shabbos class, the fact that you need it for your degree wouldn’t make it muttar. Perhaps that’s true for the issur of hearing apikorsus as well?
Go ask a competent posek.
“Go ask a competent posek.”
Ditto. And make sure to be prepared beforehand with a clear explanation regarding why you think you need to take this class and what your options are/aren’t.
Maybe also try to find other Frum people who took the same major in the same college and try to find out what they did.
And choose the competent Poseik wisely. On the one hand make sure that he really is competent – don’t just go to some liberal Rabbi who will give you the answer you want. At the same time, it might make sense to go to someone who is at least somewhat familiar with the college world and would be able to give you advice that is both halachic and practical.
I did ask; hopefully the answer will come soon.
Where in the Shulchan Aruch does it say that it is forbidden for a Jew to hear apikorsus?
“I did ask; hopefully the answer will come soon.”
Shkoyach!! I’m very impressed. Not everyone would have asked.
“Where in the Shulchan Aruch does it say that it is forbidden for a Jew to hear apikorsus?”
I’ll leave that to the resident Talmid Chacham/googler/source provider to answer.
Maran HaGaon HaRav Schach, zatzal, was known to say regarding certain Orthodox rabbis that their opinions are “forbidden to hear” due to being apikorsus. Included in this was a very famous rosh yeshiva and posek, as well as a well-known chassidic rebbe. But, again, where is the source in SA that apikorsus is forbidden to hear? (I am not disputing that there is such a source, but merely asking.)
Rambam in A”Z 2:2 writes about reading a”z. I think it is assumed that
kefirah is no different, and hearing is no different. I don’t know if Sh”A in Hilchos A”Z explicitly refers to it, but he does refer to the issur (“Al Tifnu”) in Hilchos Shabbos (307:16) in regards to reading.
The issur applies when there is a chashash that someone will ch”v be swayed, and unfortunately we have seen many frum people fall into bad hashkafos or outright kefirah from exposure to the prevalent secular worldview.
BTW, leitzanusa d’avodah zarah is muttar, so I think what you posted is okay, since you painted it in a negative light.
I’m sorry, but I have little or no sympathy for the poster. He previously announced that he flunked out of Law School and seemed to blame it on the professors, Now in the first class to be a paralegal, he is again finding fault with his instructor.
This school is not the only place to get a paralegal certificate.
In fact, if he doesn’t want to interact with ‘liberal’ professors in class the ABA maintains a list of approved for NY paralegal courses, many of which are available on line.
Not all law professors are liberal or apikorsim.
I have taught many a law school course as an adjunct professor in the past 30 years. I may be liberal compared to the poster with the long beard, BUT I am not an apikorus.
Wow, CTL, that’s harsh, and really nothing to do with his issue of sitting in class with a teacher spewing his apikorsus. It’s also very nice that you’re not an apikores, but his teacher is.
BTW, the Rambam in the following halachah, A”Z 2:3, talks about being exposed to kefirah.
Mik5 absolutely deserves this opportunity for success.
Hashem is good and generous, not because we deserve it but because Hashem is that good ~ And has that much and more to give to Mik5.
CTLAWYER: So what about law school. Professors make a huge difference. I’ve changed courses because the professor was not accommodating to my needs. Ended up in another class which was mamash mi hashamayim and I graduated with honors —all after what otherwise looked like there was no chance at ever graduating.
He learned from his law school experience.
What, Hashem doesn’t allow for teshuvah?
Certainly He does. Mik5 may be more successful as a paralegal because of his previous experiences, not despite.
Mik5: Yasher Koach to You!
Mik5: Sounds like your professor is already setting up the power struggle to unload more contradictory views throughout the semester.
—Potential issues such as exams on Yom Tovim may come up here, with the professor being unaccommodating.
I would keep as much correspondence in email as possible, for your records. That way if anything comes up you can go to administration with verification of you stating your religious needs and etc.
Though… glad that you asked a shaila and let us know.
Sending you blessings for success and smooth and strong studies 🙂
I went to secular college unfortunately, but almost none of the things originally mentioned in this thread were a problem. I’ve never heard of anything being due Saturday night, also if something is scheduled for Saturday you can get it moved for religious accommodation; it’s legally mandated.
The party lifestyle, the extreme cases of untznius outfits that occur in the summer (whatever is the worst thing you can imagine is probably an underestimate unless you’ve experienced public college in the warm weather), and the epidemic of anti-religious Professors are the real problems. Remember, they recently found that over 50% of American Sociology professors openly identify as Marxist. Admittedly, that’s a particularly bad subject, but still.
Everything works out in the end, Hashem makes sure that those who really deserve A get those A and those that deserve those B get those B. I had a similar issue in my college where I could not finish everything, so I did whatever I could and I had a very good teacher who gave me the A and understood me.
Rescue37, those who will not consider her because she went to a general college should not be considered by her. Anyway, if her father (or she) can support them in kollel they will overlook it.
DY: “BTW, leitzanusa d’avodah zarah is muttar, so I think what you posted is okay, since you painted it in a negative light.”
I think that’s the difference between pritzus and kefira. If it’s obvious that you don’t agree with the kefira, it might make it okay, but that won’t help for pritzus.
Abba-S -“1. Goyim Many Goyim attend Touro they just may not be in your class or division.”
I agree. I went to Touro, among other schools, but Touro is more capable in providing a Frum environment than other schools.
Eg. – Yom Tov – there’s no classes!
At least let him be embarrassed to say such things when there is an obviously religious person in the class. After all, I do not raise my hand in class and publicly advertise my beliefs regarding same-gender marriage.
You’re avoiding trouble; he doesn’t have to worry about that.
He should worry about that.
Mik5 -“After all, I do not raise my hand in class and publicly advertise my beliefs regarding same-gender marriage.”
And why not? Are you scared?
When I was in A&P II, it was a Goyishe school, I raised the point that life begins at fertilization, so how did SCOTUS legalize Abortion?!?
You’re better off in Touro.
Probably because he has good reason to protect himself from being beat-up after class, mocked, and who knows what else.
Today’s world is much different.
Furthermore, it could be a conflict. Students have no problem filming another student in class.
At the start of mik5 expressing his beliefs and oppositional views, a red light turns on and suddenly his name and face are on YouTube and Twitter. Open to the world’s ridicule.
Why wouldn’t his LOR not advise him to remain quiet?
After all, I do not raise my hand in class and publicly advertise my beliefs regarding same-gender marriage
College professors are supposed to (and usually do) respect your relgious beliefs. While they might about beliefs in general they usually wont single you out. They might say “Judaism is stupid” but they usually wont say “Your Beliefs in judaism is stupid”
LB -“Probably because he has good reason to protect himself from being beat-up after class, mocked, and who knows what else.”
So he’s scared! It sounds like you are also.
“Today’s world is much different.”
It wasn’t that long ago.
“Furthermore, it could be a conflict. Students have no problem filming another student in class.
At the start of mik5 expressing his beliefs and oppositional views, a red light turns on and suddenly his name and face are on YouTube and Twitter. Open to the world’s ridicule.”
So what? You gotta learn from a guy like Pres Trump. He don’t back down & neither do I!
Health – +1 Shkoyach for not being afraid to make a Kiddush Hashem!
Although I do understand why others are. I would probably be like Mik5. It’s not easy to stand up for our beliefs – but it is definitely commendable when one can do it!
Trump is not always the best role model in the area of not backing down.
And one has to be careful in a place with all kinds of people, you do need to be careful what you say to whom even to people who live lives against the torah. Better to say nothing. Remember there are always people watching that you dont even know about. Those people will get ideas based on your behavior and that might have negative consequences
LU – Thanks!
Dunno if it’s commendable if it results in death threats.
I am not Mik5. I took liberal courses where many of my classmates were Jewish. I am a “girl.” I grew up secular and want to speak up.
I can tell you that I was in a class and my teacher said something racist (even by CR standards) and the room was silent. Did any students of whom she was talking about speak up against her? Or say that she was wrong? Or question it?
Seconds later she switched topics. I was shocked that no one said anything so I did. I asked her how she could say that and I challenged her rebuttal.
In retrospect, maybe the students had to live with that daily, overtly and covertly, and being minorities they were affected by the oppression.
I was in a better position to call her out. Someone needed to do it.
The person who it affects the most may not be in that position.
Thank you
Lightbrite, silence sometimes means that the comment does not deserve an answer. If the teacher expected a laugh and was met by stone faces it was probably the greatest punishment she could have received. In an case, teachers can also be recorded and the comments uploaded to YouTube. Evens if teachers have tenure their classes can be boycotted.
As for retribution for opposing the teacher’s beliefs, I got in trouble with my 11th grade English teacher for writing an essay about why we should not have to study literature. I would imagine that one would get in trouble with a frum teacher for opposing his particular hashkafa. Of course, in the hard sciences this is not an issue. In any case, in college there are generally lists of teachers of the various courses and there are ratings available on the Internet.
zahavasdad,
While they might about beliefs in general they usually wont single you out. They might say “Judaism is stupid” but they usually wont say “Your Beliefs in judaism is stupid”
The distinction between general comments and singling out a student gets pretty blurry when the comment is made seemingly at random (unrelated to the course material), with an obvious member of the faith or ethnic group sitting in the front row. I’d imagine that mik5 felt quite singled out.
Response from rav regarding how to deal with a prof who expresses views that are contrary to the Torah:
It would be an idea, depending on who the teacher is, to approach him and respectfully express your dissatisfaction with his lack of sensitivity.
See dinonline Web site.
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