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lesschumras,
I’m not sure that I get what I said that evoked your “response”. I don’t actually go around spitting at decorations in case you don’t understand figurative language. I don’t recall using the word “shvartze” in the near past or accusing other jews of being frei. Your post lacks any connection or flow and doesn’t make much sense to me.
“If you don’t want to see the lights, move to Israel or Saudi Arabia.” Did I say that they don’t have a right to use those lights? I have no problem with them using it. I just don’t think that we as Jews should enjoy it.
lesschumras,
Easter was historically a dangerous time of year for Jews not only because of the death of Jesus but also because Easter is always timed to take place around Pesach. This meant that besides dealing with the fallout from Easter Passion Plays and the like the Jewish community also had the danger of blood libels.
brooklyn19: The “C” in “JC” is not actually a name, but a Greek word equivalent to “anointed” or “Messiah.” Therefore, rabbis engaged in counter-missionary efforts (e.g., Rabbi Tovia Singer of Outreach Judaism) advise Jews to never use the “C” word at all when referring to the Christian god, because we would be in effect honoring him with the title that the Christians claim he has. In his lectures, Rabbi Singer generally refers to him as “Jesus of Nazereth” and the like, but even that is in the context of his work drawing Jews away from missionaries. I’m not sure if it is appropriate to use either name at all in general conversation.
lesschumras: Christians persecuted Jews both on Christmas and Easter (e.g., the Warsaw Pogrom of 1881 began on Dec. 25). Truthfully, Christians never needed a holiday to attack Jews; the attacks just increased during both holidays. Today in the U.S., anti-semitism often increases more during the Christmas season–take, for example, the incident a year or two ago at the Seattle Airport, where the airport authorities removed Christmas trees instead of allowing the installation of a Chanukah menorah… even though the rabbi involved never asked for the trees to be removed, and was actually upset that they were removed, local Jewish organizations were flooded with hateful and frightening letters. Also, I don’t think that Joseph is disputing with you that Easter is a big day for anti-Semitism. He is referring to a minhag of partial mourning on Dec. 25th because of the violence on that day in the past. That minhag probably wouldn’t work on Easter, since Easter almost always falls during Pesach.
yankdownunder- I have been in Israel and in Geulah on the crowded Malachei Yisroel Street twice and I never saw any X-mas decorations being sold. I”YH we will go this year and I will check this out!
I have seen people here in america decorate their succos with electric lights and pictures using lights going off and on. That to me reminded me of X-mas, why can’t people just put some nice pictures of Yerusahalayim and Tzaddikim and their kids projects and be done with it, why all the glitz?
Whoever said there is a halachic prohibition to see kratsmich lights or to say Yushke’s YM’S name? There is no halachic prohibition to enjoy the wonderful cozy feelings of watching a toilet in action either.
Joseph – can you please cite where in the Chasam Sofer I can find the reason you gave for nittel nacht? I am referring to the statement you made about not learning due to aveilus from the birth of oiso hoish. I find it hard to believe that that is really a reason given by a halachic authority.
(I have always thought that this reason was made up by one yeshiva bochur who did not know the history of nittel nacht. It is doubtful that Dec 25th was his actual birthday – especially since the calendar changed so many times in the last 2000 years. Plus, to abolish learning due to his birth is surprising, not to mention that if it is truly due to aveilus it should continue the entire next day. But there is no need for me to expound on why I think it is not really a reason – if you can point me to where it is stated I will accept it.)
As a side point, I can see a couple of reasons not to mention the rosho’s name.
1) It is used as a swear word
2) Christ means Moshiach. By calling him Christ you are buying into their belief (albeit a minor problem with their religion – if they only thought that he was moshiach it wouldn’t be avoda zora.)
squeak: The reason it’s used as a swear word is because one of the Aseres Hadibros is not to say Hashem’s name in vain. The Christians say using the name of Jesus is swearing because they believe he is god, and to say it for no reason is swearing. By saying it’s a swear word, you’re actually giving credence to this claim! A Jew should say it’s NOT a swear word, as Jesus was obviously not god!
squeak – I’ll need to check it out, if you need more details than what I provided in my comment on the previous page, which I thought was rather comprehensive with mekors.
As far as the birthday, as a historical matter it is a joke, and the Christians know it. No one seriously believes its on 12/25. That date was chosen for kratsmich because it was previously a Roman pagan holiday by the sun worshippers, and when the Christians were trying to convert the Romans to Christianity, they conveniently chose that day since the Romans already had a holiday that date. In fact, there are over 200 different ‘shittos’ amongst various Christian sects as to when the mamzers birthday is.
Regarding the “lights”. They have their origin in paganism (avoda zara), which in turn looks to be a distortion of something done by Adam Harishon as stated in the Midrash. The Midrash states that after his cheit, Adam Harishon noticed that the days progressively got shorter and shorter (less sunlight every day). The shortest day of the year, is December 21 on the non jewish calendar. Within 2-3 days it became obvious that the days were getting longer again, and Adam realized that the lack of sun was part of the Briah (the seasons) and not something that was caused by his cheit. He brought korbanos on this day. With time, the world became steeped in Avoda Zara and this became a pagan holiday. When the Notzrim founded their religion it was very conveneient to use December 25th, because it was already a day the pagans celebrated. Part of “service” was to light lights to offset the lack of sun. Certain elements of this paganism remained with the Notzrim. Today, I doubt many associate the lights that are put out with the original Avoda Zara. I’m not a posek and am not issuing a Psak. just stating what is common in numerous books on history and religion.
Regarding saying “X-Mas” or its full spelling. Again, I am not a Rav, and am not stating a definitive halacha. Personally, I have a difficult time repeating the name that has been used as an excuse to kill yidden for more than 2000 years. The lights that celebrate this holiday and this persons birth/death (whatever) are also a vivid reminder of the jewish blood shed in this persons name. It bothers me to look at these lights, the way it bothers some people to buy a Volvo.
Again, not halacha, just how I feel.
Actually I think chasid-of-Hashem was correct when he mentioned that January 1st celebrated the circumcision of jesus, since this was indeed the case (this was changed in the 1960’s). Joseph and jphone mentioned that x-mas was celebrated in December to coincide with the pagan solstice. One might wonder, then, why x-mas would be celebrated 12/25 when the solstice occurs 12/22. Perhaps this adjustment was made so that the January 1st holiday, which was already celebrated as the Roman New Year, would occur a week after x-mas and could then be celebrated as the circumcision also.
jphone, why would someone avoid purchasing a Volvo?
lesschumaras: i was in Tveria on Chanuka. Plenty of christmas lights decorating the city. and santa and all. it’s sad, but it does exist even in jewish areas. (probably russians or something.)
And BTW everyone, Jesus didn’t go by that first name either. and i personally know guys by the name “yeshuah” which i believe was his hebrew name. what’s the difference? how about joseph and mary? plenty of jews with those names too.
now i’m not saying i’d name my kid Jesus. but what’s wrong with saying it?
anon – they didn’t have a modern calendar. took them 3 days to realize the world wasn’t coming to an end :}
Joseph – when I read your post, I saw you quote the Chasam Sofer in the second paragraph without mentioning where exactly. Now I went back and I saw that in the next paragraphs you wrote likuttim 31 and 32. So I guess I can find it myself. Thanks.
Many people put the lights in their sukkah to decorate it. (They are also very cheap around sukkos time!)
yeah of course, Charlie! sorry I guess I assumed. yeah and thank for starting this thread. lol it’s a weird thing that i’m actually intimidated by something…
anon,
I assume he meant BMW or Mercedes.
notpashut, that’s what I’d guess, but I wasn’t sure if there was an issue with Volvo as well.
brooklyn19, I think you’re kidding, but in case you’re not, people definitely knew when the solstice was–they developed sophisticated devices that determined when solstice occurred based on the sun hitting a certain spot. So there must have been some reason for the Church to change the date to 12/25, and I think my theory fits.
BTW, the use of fir trees as a holiday symbol is based on the concept that evergreens don’t lose their leaves in the fall as deciduous trees do, so they represent the coming of spring.
anon – lol :} of course i was kidding! i really don’t know the answer to that.
For some reason I thought a Volvo was a german car. Whatever. Make believe I didnt write volvo and instead it says “german made product”.
Regarding the 25th, it is because it takes several days from the solstice to realize the days are getting longer. If you told your time by the sun, would you be able to differentiate between 2 minutes? 🙂
Those who do not follow the adjusted calendar (gregorian?) (the Greek Orthodox Church as they are called) delay all celebrations by 8 days, they are still on the original calendar (Julian?).
didn’t augustus or some kind of other roman emperor whipe out 10 days from the calander at one point?
intellegent,
The Julian calendar, dating to Julius Caesar, was mathematicaly flawed and its leap years had to be adjusted numerous times to keep it in sync with tropical seasons.
The 10 days you are referring to is when the Gregorian calendar replaced the Julian calendar in the 16th century, 10 calendar days were skipped to effect the conversion.
Back at the beginning of this thread, someone brought up the subject of wishing goyim a “happy holiday”. Personally, since I work with them, I think it’s the appropriate greeting, and they always wish me Happy Chanukah. Surely we’re allowed to say Jesus, ever work with a hispanic fellow named (pronounced as) Haysuss?
When he was very little, my oldest son would point at Santa decorations and ask if it were the Kohan Gadol! Don’t worry, he grew out of it.
My husband is at Yeshiva learning tonite. We’re not Chassidish, so we don’t have that minhag.
Not only don’t the goyim know when this dude was born, but nothing was even written about him till about 400 years after he died, right?
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Those eager to put 2008 behind them will have to hold their good-byes for just a moment this New Year’s Eve.
The world’s official timekeepers have added a “leap second” to the last day of the year on Wednesday, to help match clocks to the Earth’s slowing spin on its axis, which takes place at ever-changing rates affected by tides and other factors.
The U.S. Naval Observatory, keeper of the Pentagon’s master clock, said it would add the extra second on Wednesday in coordination with the world’s atomic clocks at 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds Coordinated Universal Time, or UTC.
That corresponds to 6:59:59 p.m. EST (23:59:59 GMT), when an extra second will tick by — the 24th to be added to UTC since 1972, when the practice began.
UTC is the time scale kept by highly precise atomic clocks around the world, accurate to about a billionth of a second per day, the Naval Observatory says. For those with a need for precision timing, it has replaced Greenwich Mean Time, or GMT.
The decision to add or remove a second is the responsibility of the International Earth Rotation and Reference Systems Service, based on its monitoring of the Earth’s rotation.
The goal is to make sure clocks vary from the Earth’s rotational time by no more than 0.9 seconds before an adjustment. That keeps UTC in sync with the position of the sun above the Earth.
Mechanisms such as the Internet-based Network Time Protocol and the satellite-based Global Positioning System depend on precision timing.
The first leap second was introduced into UTC on June 30, 1972. The last was added on December 31, 2005.
They have been added at intervals ranging from six months to seven years, Daniel Gambis, head of the IERS Earth Orientation Centre at the Observatoire de Paris, wrote in an explanatory piece this month (http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/).
Among the reasons for Earth’s slowing whirl on its axis are the braking action of tides, snow or the lack of it at the polar ice caps, solar wind, space dust and magnetic storms, according to the U.S. Commerce Department’s National Institute of Standards and Technology, another timekeeper.
By contrast, a leap day, February 29, occurs once every four years because a complete turn around the sun — our year with all its seasons — takes about 365 days and six hours.
In 1970, an international agreement established two time scales: one based on the Earth’s rotation and another on highly accurate atomic clocks.
The U.S. Naval Observatory’s master clock is based on a system that now includes 50 atomic clocks, 36 based on the element cesium and 14 known as hydrogen masers.
With the Earth’s rotation gradually slowing, the periodic insertion of a leap second into the atomic time scale is needed to keep the two systems within a second of each other.
Joseph, what does that have to do with Christmas lights?
Feif, Reuters put that on the wire specifically to antogonize you. lol.
Actually there is a side discussions regarding the Jewish vs. secular calendar above.
Actually, the Gregorian Calendar was proposed in the 16th century but was adopted onlyu by Catholic countries as Protestant countries wanted nothing to do with any new item proposed by a Pope. It was gradually adopted over the next 200 years , with Britain and its Empire converting in 1752.
lesschumras, The Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.), who are closer to Catholicism than Protestants, were the last holdouts against the Gregorian calendar. And indeed until this day base much of their religious services (including kratsmich) on the dates in the Julian calendar.
“squeak: The reason it’s used as a swear word is because one of the Aseres Hadibros is not to say Hashem’s name in vain. The Christians say using the name of Jesus is swearing because they believe he is god, and to say it for no reason is swearing. By saying it’s a swear word, you’re actually giving credence to this claim! A Jew should say it’s NOT a swear word, as Jesus was obviously not god!”
Precisely how I feel. When we talk about avoda zara, we refer to elohim acheirim. We would only say Elokim when we refer to Hashem. As soon as one refrains from saying the name of “their guy” it gives him the same type of reverence as we hold for Hashem, l’havdil eleph alphei havdalos. There is a halacha however, I believe, that we are not supposed to say aloud the name of gods that are considered real avoda zara, because they are tumah. I am not sure if I am correct, so I hope someone can further elucidate.
Are you allowed to “profit” from holiday sales or enjoy your day off from work? It strikes me that that could be assur – if christmas is a holiday within an avoda zara calendar and a sale is going on because of it then… well…
AND
Can a kosher bakery sell “holiday” stuff relating to it?
enlightenedjew
maybe that question shouldn’t be posed on here. it’s a major issue and i don’t think anyone here is in the position to answer it. if it pertains to you or if you’re just curious, ask.
Why shouldn’t a person be able to enjoy a day off from work?
brooklyn19 – thanks for the response, I was just curious. I know that the bakery issue is a real question (i meant a jewish owned bakery – obviously there’s no issue with a non jewish owned bakery that happens to be kosher).
yros – I was just kidding with the day off question 😉
Re: Kosher bakeries and holiday “stuff” : You know what – I have sometimes seen gingerbread houses (with magen dovids, menorahs, and dreidels decorating them) in my locla kosher bakery, and I personally was taken aback. Yes, this MO Jew was taken aback. I thought it was inappropriate, and mamesh chukas hagoyim to have such a thing. We are not missing anything by not having this type of confection.
I am sufficiently comfortable to be happy to take advantage of a seasonal day off, because it was my employer’s choice to close up shop for that day. I would not ask or expect to have a day off, were I employed by someone who was open on December 25th, but what is it my business if my boss wants to pay me for being home on that day?
oomis1105,
I think it has a lot to do with how it is decorated. Don’t a lot of people make cookies in the shape of dreidels/menorahs? But I see what you mean when they look like a different version of the goyishe stuff.
(Also, where does blue and white color code come to chanuka?)
Blue&White are the colors that the Zionists took. (Of course, originally it was tzitzis with t’chailes.)
The association is that the Zionists are trying to equate themselves to the Chashmonaim. Chanuka is being hijacked as a blue&white Zionist holiday.
intellegent – don’t you know??? the chashmonaim won over the yevanim and regained control over eretz yisrael, which is the current state of israel… flag of the state = blue and white. hence, the chashmonaim were zionists who fought for the land and hashem helped them by making a miracle. that’s where the blue and white comes from.
…anyone gonna try and argue that one???
:}
brooklyn19,
chas v’shalom!
oops i peeked!
Question: Is there anything wrong with admiring the colorful lights that the our non-Jewish neighbors hang up during their holiday season?
Answer:
It’s very wrong to admire anything that is in any way connected to avodah zarah. No! “Tizreim ki’mo da’vah” (Yeshai’ah 30-22). It’s disgusting. And even if you don’t think so, you must tell yourself that it’s disgusting. You must train yourself to think properly. The lights are disgusting. Chas ve’shalom to admire the lights.
I don’t want to talk in public about what they’re celebrating but it’s one of the most shameful things in history. A child was born from a woman who said, “It’s not from my husband.” Disgusting! He was born from a woman who said, “I admit, it’s not from my husband.” And they want to celebrate it with lights?!!
[HaGaon HaRav HaTzaddik Avigdor Miller, zecher tzaddik l’vracha]
But the lights are so helpful for knowing what types of people live in each house.
why is this in the Chanukah section??? help! mods please remove it fast, this is so important.
we should have a Christman section, the amount that we talk about it……..
Mik5 – +1. Thanks for sharing. I don’t know if I would have realized how bad it is. Boruch Hashem, it doesn’t really come up for me, but it’s important to know in case I ever end up in the US during that season.
It’s a problem to hv pleasure from them
This thread now contains that word “Christmas” or Xmas more than anywhere else in this country. I’ve only heard the “C” word 4 times on the television now. Zero times in Email which has been spamming me about some holiday since October 31st now.
In the emails I get, they tell me to get my “holiday gifts, under my holiday tree, by 12/25”
And on 12/24 every year I get the flood of politically correct, and cryptic emails about having a “Happy Holiday” “We wish the Holiday is good for you” yada yada, never mentioning what holiday they are talking about.Congratulations for bucking this trend!
Joseph
“The guy” who the holiday is named after is a rasha merusha burning in gehenim ad hoyom hazeh in who’s name much much Jewish blood has been spilled.
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Joseph, im not saying your wrong but im just wondering if you have a source to back up your claim that yoshko is”burning in gehinom ad hayom hazeh”?There’s also New Years, right after, so Christians get offended when you just say “Merry Christmas” because it implies that a happy new year isn’t included.
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