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I just met the second person in the past few days who is taking his wife and kids to get…………..PASSPORTS!!
Yes folks. You read correctly.
Passports.
Why?
No, not to go on vacation.
This is (as he put it) “so we (Jews) will be able to flee this country in a few weeks after all havoc breaks loose”.
My friends, is this normal?
Your comments please:
It might just be prudent if only because you won’t be able to get to Canada with just a birth certificate and there will be a big rush as the deadline approaches.
i dont know what “normal” means.
it does however take into consideration the repetition of our history over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, again and again, from neighborhood to neighborhood and country to country, over and over and over again.
We are in galus. Yes, JoJo, we have been blessed Baruch Hsahem for many years with Menuchas Hanefesh somewhat in America and beyond. True America is a medina shel chesed but Hakadosh Baruch Hu runs this world and it is He who sent us into galus. We must not forget this and this may be the final reminder to do Teshuva. Only time will tell. But your friend is smart for getting passports as long as he doesn’t forget to daven and have bitachon also.
My father used to get all my siblings passports when we were born because he said you NEVER know when the goyim may turn on you. Halacha shtait that Eisav Soineh Yaakov!
I thought that he was just reacting as the child of a holocaust survivor. But at times I did wonder about it. Since this election I have really been thinking how wise my father’s words and actions are that we always need to be prepared to move in galus.
I think that each and every Yid has an achrayis to go and get a passport now while we are in such times. Hope and Pray that all our worries are for naught, but as my father says, Pray for the best but Prepare for the worst!
May the best man for Klal Yisrael win!!!!
mass hysteria.. some may not agree with obama, but the US government is setup so that his powers as president are minimal at best, and there is no way having someone like him in the white house will affect us to the point where we will need to “flee” the country!
It certainly does not seem like Daas Torah to me. Who did they ask?
I am also in the process in getting a passport for my Daughter. Just in case chas v shalom something would happen. At least I know that I wont have to bother getting a passport because I would already have them. And to “the queen of persia” No I did not ask das torah. Why would anyone need to ask das torah if they should get passports. Do you ask Das Torah permission to use the rest room?
“Daas Torah?” Listen, Queenie, it’s simply common sense, practical, and prudent to maintain passports for all family members, and have them in a secure and readily accessible place. It doesn’t hurt to have passports ready and hope/daven to not have to use them, as is the case with ALL types of insurance!
Agav I heard yesturday, that photo express in lakewood was full of people geting passport photos!
it’s probably also a good advice to keep enough cash on hand to pay for tickets.
daas torah is always needed. there are some that hold ins. is not neccesary.
modernlakewoodguy- “minimal powers” …uhhh “commander in chief ” of the army aint exactly minimal He can decide to bomb any country C”V our Holy land & by the time congress gets together to veto it ….Id rather not finish ..scary thought !!
One should always have a passport ready in order to leave–just in case! According to Biden, during Obama’s first term we will have an international crises…” so I think we should all get ready in case he gets a first term!
Money is also good. One needs to do their hishtadlus (after tefilla and bitachon) and have emergency supplies ready… even if it is just the biggest snowstorm to hit America in history…. or a major earthquake… or a nuclear distaster…
Daas Torah is for halachic issues, or hashkafic issues. I do not need a rov ‘s permission or even opinion, as to whether or not I should get a passport. If I planned to make Aliyah, I might discuss that with my rov, as he lived in E”Y for a while.
Why do some frum people feel the need to always ask a rov about every little thing they need to decide for themselves? This is not something that requires a p’sak halacha.
Daas Torah is there to ask for everything. Yes, EVERYTHING!!! Halacha and HASHKAFA. If the rabbonim felt that we should all run for passports to possibly flee the country do you think they would all sit back quietly? To Moe613: You’re right on the mark. I definitely do NOT believe in insurance and wouldn’t take out a policy even if you paid me for it. When I read the responses of the other people on this sight I am often shocked at the lack of proper hashkafos.
“Prepare to flee America”= exactly my thoughts. I’ve been telling everyone when Barack Hussein Obama becomes president I’m moving to the only safe place in the entire world- Eretz Yisrael
Beacon: Who says Eretz Yisrael is the safest place in the world? I heard just the opposite. What is your source?
Please, do so. If you are really ignorant enough to think that you are going to have to “flee,” then I would rather not have you bringing my country down and diluting my vote. Please educate yourselves people.
The fact alone that people are comparing Obama to the next coming of Hitler is frightening. It is frightening that some of you buy into this nonsense, and that you spread it to others as gullible as you. But I don’t doubt that you’d be saying the same thing if Hillary was to be elected. You, my friends, are the target demographic for the Republicans – politically uneducated, easily frightened people who are afraid of those who aren’t like you.
Do all of us a favor: get your passports, then use them.
I for one will be staying right here in the United States of America. In my home of which I bought legitimately (not some interest only scam) with my hard earned money (I saved up for many years). Up until a couple months ago, I was undecided, then I educated myself on both candidates, I ignored the media and other fellow coworkers and friends on their brainwashing influences. I have decided to vote for Senator Barak Obama. I believe he will make a great positive difference in our economy. Reading some of these posts on this thread I have come to the conclusion, that many of you are not educated in what both Obama and McCain represent. You are speaking word for word what your parents are saying, and what the media is saying. Does anyone here have a mind of their own? Do you know where any of the candidates stand in their beliefs?
Queen of Persia: Come join us and live in Eretz Yisroel, you’ll see how safe it is.
shkoyach: “Halacha shtait that Eisav Soineh Yaakov” – this guy’s Yishmoel, not Eisav. Not always does the shver agree with the eidim 🙂
If you need further advice on how/why to come to EY, send me an email: [email protected]
The Queen of Persia, are you serious about insurance? Reb Moshe says life insurance is OK. Do you not have insurance on your house or car?
house and car insurance are frequently mandatory (for a mortgage or registering a vehicle.)
“If you are really ignorant enough to think that you are going to have to “flee,” then I would rather not have you bringing my country down and diluting my vote. Please educate yourselves people.”
very nice illini
no one said anything about obama except one person
if you are a Jew, if you are aware of the history of your people, if you understand Torah principles, you will always have readiness for “fleeing” somewhere in your mind.
if you dont understand, you might want to educate yourself.
Feivel:
The insinuations and implications of this post are quite clear, so spare me the “nobody said that” lecture; you know it is false.
There is no greater need to flee if Obama gets elected than there would be otherwise.
Pashuteh Yid: Yes, I have insurance on my home and also on my car. But that’s only because I have NO CHOICE. I have nothing against people who own life insurance, either. I know that many Rabbonim hold that it’s OK. But there’s a difference between “OK” and “preferable”. Each person should make his own decisiion based on daas Torah. We, personally, do not hold by it.
Kitzur_dot_net: I’ve already spent enough years in Israel (practically a decade). It’s much easier to raise children to be ehrliche yidden here in the States than there in that treifene medina.
the implications are not clear to me
there is also a severe western economic crisis, of recent developement, some predicting total collapse. who do you think will be blamed?
there is also a madman in iran who threatens possible worldwide nuclear holocaust
there are also reports of increased blatant anti-semitism all over the world
i got passports for my family last year
the implications of that post are apparently clear only to you, i saw no reference to obama in it, and perceived none. i know little about obama and am not scared of him.
you need to develop an open mind.
not everyone thinks or infers as do you
please spare me your condescending tone
illini
i think we read the syntax of the first post in two different ways:
i believe you read it as this:
“…flee this country in a few weeks, after all havoc breaks loose.” which would be around the time there is a new president in the us
i read it as this:
“…flee this country, in a few weeks after all havoc breaks loose.” meaning whenever, whatever the cause of havoc, we should be prepared to leave within a few weeks.
Queen and to other that dont believe in insurance.
Untill you read the agrus moshe orah chaim (if you would like a copy i can send you one) please do not state what you think rabbonim think on this matter. also for those that dont have it you really should think twice about your wife and children and the burden you will put them through. That is a notgood situation your family. what shall we tell them you had betuchon that all your friend will support you wife and kids for the next 50 years?
Feivel:
We indeed read the syntax differently. It’s always safe to have the means to leave if one has to, there’s no denying that – it’s true all the time, no matter what.
Insuranceguy: please be assured that we spoke to rabbonim on this matter and it is not so clear cut. I would like to contend that davka having an insurance policy could cause a “burden” on the family. Let me explain why…
A & B are a married couple without insurance. It was decreed in shamayim that A should die. But it was NOT decreed that B should be left poor. Hence A was given more years of life in order that B should not suffer what he (B) does not deserve.
C & D are a married couple with insurance. It was decreed in shamayim that C should die. It was not decreed that D should be poor. No problem! They have insurance!!! C can die as decreed and D will not be affected financially.
Nu?
Indeed there are differing opinions regarding insurance, as QoP eloquently points out. And I’ve heard that analogy previously .
re insurance guy: Once I asked the shadchan about going to Dor Yesharim (not that serious but wanted to catch something before it got too serious; no need for heartbreak) and he said, I’ll ask the other side but you do know that some people feel it’s inappropriate, tamim tih’ye etc. My answer was, then it’s a good thing we’re doing this now because I would want to find that out too. This is a mindset that I suppose is legitimate for people who are consistent, but for the rest of us, that is for most of us, it is not our derech, and Queen of Persia, we are NOT obligated to ask the shaila because we have a different mesora in this inyan and this general approach to life.
Queen- That is the most ridiculus thing I have ever read. What is decreed in shamayim is decreed whether or not a couple buys insurance. A human being has no business making cheshbonos like that. A man should buy insurance because it is the smart, sensible thing to do. Period.
Any Rav who claims that buying insurance places such a “burden” on a couple, is completely misguided.
I assume your Rav told you who to vote for as well. And before you answer that you had better call him (or them)…..
The Queen of Persia
you wrote:
:Beacon: Who says Eretz Yisrael is the safest place in the world? I heard just the opposite. What is your source?”
…and what or I should say who is your source?
ModernLakewood Guy:
Maybe you do not realize it but the Dems’ will most probablyhave both houses with overide proof majorities. COngress will be like putty in his hands. And if you have notnoticed this guy is very very charismatic. Before being in power. After the elections, with power to charismatize from th bully pulpit and stifle dissent (Fairness Doctrine will be just the start etc)….He will have the country eating out of the palm of his hand.
Also do you know anythign about history? You Germany was a Democratic Republic before Hitler came and basically torn the democracy to shreds with his charismatic powers and…. the help of the terrible economic situation the Germans were finding themselves in.
Hey!!! Guess what is happening now!! A severe Economic crises which will probably worsn exponentially with Obama policies of wealth redistribution.
Oh and mind you – maybe you do not know this – but I who did reiceve a TRUE Modern education at one of the best MO day schools in the country can tell you that there does exist a built in formula in the constitution to change the constitution itself.
Fundamntally. It is hard to do but a really charismatic leader in tough times could get it done.
This is w/o the fact the the judicial process itself w/o fundamental changes can be interpereted and has been, in ways never dreamed of by those who wrote the consitution – it all dpends on the person in power as a judge. And judges are people two who can be intimidated… and replaced.
b’Kitzur, you are right that under NORMAL circumstaces the American checks and balances system will work better than any other form of man-made government to date.
But only the imbecilic do nto realize that as Bob Dylan said – o the tiems they are a changin’
l’moshol from many:
why the baliout has given the gov’t unprecedented power over the banks – in fact the govt now controls the baking system – inthe hands of a Communist – this is very dangerous. Bush really saved Obama some legwork if Ob becomes prez. And of ocurse such a situation where the Federal Govt controls the banking system would have shocked anybody not too long ago.
Noch a moshol – the invasion of privacy laws that came about due to terrorism fears can be very dangerous in the hands of the wicked.
But hey, dreamland is always more pleasurable to live in than relality so go back to sleep.
SarahB,
altough the likelihood of the Obama campaign placing a plant on the “crucial” YWN website is nt high your comment says that either you are one or… well, some things are better left unsaid.
Are you aware of Barack’s explicitly stated desire to socialzie the country?
Are U a socialist so you do not care?
Maybe you are. But if you are not – maybe you should pay attention to how he tries to deny this – i.e. most Americans think socialism is a bad thing. A very bad thing. no polcomes out saying that they are socialists if they want to get anywhere. But Obama has said this – maybe with all of your research you did not hear the audios and videos of this.
Are U Jewish?
If yes Does the fact that he calls a rabid anti-semite his spiritual mentor not scare you?
Is anybody home? DO you really believe that he never heard in 20 years his mentors views on the Jews as this liar claims? or maybe you believe that he did but was so enthralled by the other aspects of Black Liberation Thelology that he just ignored the distasteful anti-semitic parts, but is really not an anti-semite himself. HELLO!?! ANYBODY HOME?!?
Or the praises he lavished on a PLO radical, according to an LATIMES article? Or his flip flopping on Israel after Arab pressure?
Or the enthusiam displayed for him by the palestinians, Ahmadinjad, Hamas who all can’t wait for him to get elected? Maybe they also did some research?
Or maybe you are like some stupit Jews I know whose extent of research was looking at the colors of skin of the 2 candidates.
And since it is about time a shvartza got into office – to waste with all other considerations.
Did you know many Jews actually voted for Hitler?
In all seriousness, are there any rabbanim or gedolim who have come out with a statement that if Obama wins (because there is a great possibility of him winning) all Yidden should go to Eretz Yiroel?
illini,
actually the comparisons to Hitler are quite valid. and should give one pause. enough pause to ensure that should it comto to it I can leave the country ina jiffy.
And no, FYI, when Bill was running (who is not much different than her) nobody was saying these kinds of things. And while I think America would potentially be much worse off with Hillary, there is nothing about her even when compbined with a serious econimc disaster that we might well face, that indicates she is a closet Hitler.
But FYI, Only a moron living in a fairy world would argue that when economic disaster stikes a country the Jews are not in danger. Even the USA was heavily anti-semtic after the Great Depression, just there weren’t to many Jews here too speak of at the time. nor a chrismatic, ovetly anti-semtic leader. Polls taken back then indicated a great hatred and suspicion of Jews.
Now maybe you are not converned about Brack’s anti-semitism cuz – well hey he hasn’t actually called for the destruction of the Jews.
Well, that is a stupit argument since duh, he is running for president and as of today anti-semitism is frowned upon in the USA and will autoamtically disqualifyu him from the office he so seeks.
So illini, DO NOT EXPECT HIM TO OVERTLY SAY ANYTHING NEG ABOUT JEWS BEFORE THE ELECTION, OK? If you wait for that you WILL BE DISSAPOINTED.
Ah, so what indications do we have of who this guy really is?
Have you eve heard of his pastor and what black liberation thelolgy – which Obama heavily subscribes to – tha is why he chose such a church= is?
It is made up a bunch of diffeent kinds of hate – one of them is directed at the Jews.
Yes, someone who subscribes to this theology is dangerous. very dangerous.
plus his documented relationships with anti-Jewish palestinians plus the excessive jubilation the arab world has at the prospect of his presidency ….
plus his promise to “talk” to someone who has pldeged to wipe Israel of the map and treat him like a respectable person (yes the McCain campaign is PC calls ot a ‘lack of Judgment’ but sheesh call obama what you want – he is not stupit. even Hillary Clinton would not do such a thing as left as she is. so it far more plausible that he knows full well what that means and is happy to confer this honor on Ahmed.)
That plus the economy going where it is going, plus the fact that he most probably will veto proof majorities in congress, plus his huge charisma.
These factors come together to make him one scary dude.
The right man at the right time in the right place.
I always daven for the matzav of klal Yisrael in Eretz Yisrael. Since this election my tefillos have sincerely added the matziv of yidden here and in all countries. As each day to the election grows closer… I feel we need as many zechuyos as possible…
WAKE UP!!!!
And dont do it too late!!! All you liberals that think that Obama is the man and that we’re all spewing racism and parroting our parents rabbeim etc with no knowledge… The facts are there. This man is a danger to Klal Yisrael whether you open your eyes and ears to see it or close them like a child who says that nobody is there in front of him because his eyes are shut tight.
How many ppl were warned by the holocaust that it was coming and fought and closed their eyes and ears.
One of the G’dolim that had warned of the holocaust had said that Klal Yisrael have a cylce in history (I think it was R’ Meir Simcha) that they start in a low of TOrah and build up and up and up until a generation that becomes tremendous in Torah and then the kids of these ppl feel they cant live up to their fathers so they instead go and copy the lowest of the low of the Goyim and then Hashem brings warnings of Teshuva and then there is destruction and then the cycle starts over again. He warned and his words were not heeded. I remember learning this and realizing a few years ago how klal yisrael has settled and the Teshuva movement has moved Torah learning and Yiddeshkeit so high up and then seeing so many kids going off from the greatest families even and I remember sitting there and trembling thinking that if thats the case then we better shape up fast cuz the next step of the cycle is nearing!
We can’t chose if Ob is prez or not… only Hashem can. But we can do our best to vote for what is best for us and daven and make Hashem want to bring us back L’tzion B’RACHAMIM… ever thought of what you say right before Modim?? recently I have been having lots of kavana in that word rachamim!!!
I was recently reading the book the movement by Ruth Pearlman… and I couldn’t help but flashback to obama as my heart thumped and nerves jumped when in this childish novel i had flash’s of what it could be like with him in power I had nightmares that night… you bet I did. not a good book to read at a time like this when we jump at every slight move that could connect this dude in a suit runnig for prez of the big country!
Teshuva tefila utzdaka…. it aint elul anymore but let’s pray that G-d’s as close as He was in elul of now of all times. A gutten choidesh. May it be a choidesh that brings us all besurois toivos.
Bowzer,
It’s great to say “he won’t say it, but I know he hates Jews!”
It’s also ridiculous, stupid, and ignorant. Please flee the country, we have enough idiots here as is.
“In all seriousness, are there any rabbanim or gedolim who have come out with a statement that if Obama wins (because there is a great possibility of him winning) all Yidden should go to Eretz Yiroel?”
I thought the Torah already made that statement.
illini07 you are a reincarnate of the oigeshmade yidden of germany before the big churben ,also from other countries throut the ages (hellenists etc.)and your shita is exactly the same. anyone with a 1/2 brain can see ,es is nisht paushet whats going on since 9/11, yes it started before but that was the defining moment…the stuation is ‘vehuanoshim hiku besanvairin’ the eibister has blinded all..sarozky is also unintelligent, gaulos minded jew? knock down YOUR arrogance
shkoyach to Reb Shkoyach, well said.
To ModernLakewod Guy,
And anyone who thinks that is impossible in the USA!!
First of all do you kow US History? How could it be that during WW2 thousands of US Citizens were sent to internment camps for the ‘crime’ of being Japanese? This is clearly ‘not constitutional’ since NO EVIDENCE whoatsoever was ever produced against them. Just US fears that they would help their brothers the Japs. The point is habeuas corpus can be jettisoned if need be and not a peep from any of the 3 branches of Govt. to stop it.
Now you claim to be modern so maybe you are aware of this ma’aseh but you are still from lakewood so you might . Go to wiki, learn something before you just robotically, reactively deny the fact I just presented you. And please, please do not use cockamamie faulty yeshivish logic (cholila, do not get the wrong impression, there is a HUGE difference btwn Yeshivish logic and l’havdil how the Torah operates I am just sick of ocurse of just the corrupted yeshivish strain on things which assumes conclusions and convulutes evidence to achieve a priori concpetions)
Second.
Here is a little scenario that is just one of many that can happen but is more pognant since it takes on actual tactics the Sonei Yisorel, Barak Hitler Obama has used:
You might have heard of Joe the plumper.
And how the US Govt. in the person of the Sec. State of Ohio, ademocrat, you govt. computers to dig dirt and harm him. From say tax violations or what have you. it seems they found nothing since Joe is still plumping.
Well, What would happen if President Bark decided to go after a few thousand Jews tax records and for good measure – make sure they were all Jewish lookking Jews – Chasidim and/or Black Hatters. TO see if they were cheating the Motherland out of taxes owed to her and not being good guests.
What do you think he would find? Do you think they couldn’t find oh a few thousand Jews – AN EPIDEMIC!!! – who cheated the US out of taxes BIG TIME. Look, we all know the answer to this question – they COULD and WOULD find real widespread tax abuse.
With Americans already on edge about mass unemployment, loss of kife savings and massive home foreclosures, this could be the beginngin of the ‘scapegoating of the Jews’ for all of Ameirca’s problems. And once the public is with him – the sky is the limit to what he can do – just like with the Japanese of WW2.
Think this or other similar scenario’s couldn’t happen?
You are not alone. The vast Majority of European Jewry did not believe that the Nazis, ym”sh would perpetrate the atrocities the did.
Did the Jews of the Ukraine think Chnielnitzki would do what he did or that the Poles would give them up in Nemirov? nope.
DId Spanish Jewry in the GOlden Age ever dream of something as dreadful as the INquisition? No.
So do not be surprised that we do not believe that goyim could turn on us under the right circumstances in America. History has this way of never being learned from.
We should not project our hopes and logics on to the goyim’s mind. THey fail to humor us every time.
the definitive argument:
“ridiculous, stupid, and ignorant. Please flee the country, we have enough idiots here as is.”
Bowzer, you wrote,
“We should not project our hopes and logics on to the goyim’s mind.”
Neither, though, should we project our fears. I understand you are very worried, but the scenario you are describing seems very unlikely, at best. You are absolutely correct that thousands of US citizens of Japanese extraction were sent to internment camps during WWII. This was unconsitutional; despite the fact that Japan had attacked the US & drawn the country into a war so many wanted to avoid, these American citizens had committed no crime.
But this was not repeated in more recent times. After the 9/11 attacks, the US government did not indisriminately round up Saudi or Afghani nationals, let alone Muslim-Americans. This despite the fact that most of the highjackers were Saudi nationals, Osama bin Laden was from a prominent Saudi family, and bin Laden was then hiding in Afghanistan.
Now the US is at war in Iraq & Afghanistan, yet Americans from these countries have not been indiscriminately rounded up by the government & sent to internment camps. True, Muslims & others have been discriminated against or attacked, but these are individual crimes; the US government does not sanction these crimes but prosecutes the perpetrators as it would any other criminal.
This is very different from the situation in Europe during the times you mentioned.
Please keep in mind as well that although there are many citizens in this country who do not wish Jews well, most of them do not like African-Americans (or Muslims, for that matter, for those who still believe Obama is a Muslim) very much either.
Jent:
Fine, point me to SPECIFIC EXAMPLES which CLEARLY SHOW that Obama hates Jews. I dare you.
Bowzer, everything very well said (except your Yeshiva comment, which is incorrect.)
anon: “This is very different from the situation in Europe during the times you mentioned.”
The situation in Europe also came unexpectedly.
annon..your comparison..saudia arabi did not attack us so what are you saying ‘america didnt round up saudi citizens?
Joseph, which situation in Europe are you talking about? Assuming you mean the Holocaust, it’s true that the widespread, systematic extermination of Jews was unexpected. But Europe in general had a rich history of anti-Semitism & attacks against Jews, generally sanctioned by various governments which either participated actively or looked the other way. That’s simply not the case in this country. It’s not for nothing that many Gedolim call this a “medina shel chessed”.
illini07 you are not a man of your word,how many time have you said you will not bother to answer ..,linked already few times..our words are directed to the rst just remind one should get affected..shano minos..
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