PRENUPTUALS in FRUM circles??!

What do you think of a prenup in frum marriages?

Considering the fact that the Kesubah itself is a prenuptial agreement and, in previous times, it could be altered as either party saw fit with conditions (provided the minimum amount was provided for), I’d say there’s pretty solid grounds to say that they’re okay (provided, of course, they conform to Halacha in general).

The Wolf

My rebbeim told us not to use them. So we don’t. Otherwise, I dunno much about them.

I do particularly enjoy the way MO rabbis get themselves all in a tizzy about it. I actually once saw an article by a rabbi who takes himself seriously, suggesting that people should refuse to attend a wedding where they aren’t using a prenup.

Imagine that. For all he accuses us of imposing chumros on others, this guy wants to impose that nobody can go to a wedding where they don’t do it the way HE thinks it should be done. Nice.

Prenupts have no place in any circle.

If you Mesader Kidushin insists on it, move onto another Mesader Kiddushin.

Why are “sides” calling off a shidduch, instead of the bride and groom?

Commenters are confusing a kesubah between chassan and kallah with a financial commitment by the kallah’s family. Bitter experience shows that before a girl goes on the market, her family should commit to a beis din, not to the other family, on what they owe. That way, shidduchim or (r”l) marriages won’t be broken up over support issues and the boy can give the kesubah the respect it deserves.

147: Halachic pre-nups have been endorsed by R’ Ovadia Yosef, R’ Herschel Schachter, R’ Mordechai Willig, and others. Who are you to say such a thing about them?

Ok, we all know the facts: MO and some others have endorsed them strongly; yeshivish have told their talmidim to not use them. Let’s talk about more interesting things, like what they are intended to do.

Has anyone read it? I skimmed theough a while ago. I’ll try and go over it again so this can be more fun.

Unfortunately, not every man gives the Kesubah the respect it deserves.

I’m not saying that it’s true in every case of divorce;

but there are many Agunas whose husband won’t give them a divorce.

From the RCA website, prenup.org:

“In some cases, spouses have purposely withheld a Get even where their marriages have functionally ended. Some spouses have refused to participate in the Get process in order to extract concessions in divorce negotiations, in order to extort money, or simply out of spite.

Traditionally, rabbinical courts (Batei Din) have been charged with the responsibility of overseeing the process of Jewish divorce, and ensuring that Get is not improperly withheld. However, in modern society, Batei Din frequently lack the authority to do so. The Prenup is a document entered into by a man and woman prior to their marriage. It provides that in the unfortunate event of divorce, the Beit Din will have the proper authority to ensure that the Get is not used as a bargaining chip.”

nishtdayngesheft: No, the purpose of the halachic pre-nup is to avoid agunah situations. Unfortunately, in many cases a get is withheld out of spite, to extort more money, or for use as a bargaining chip in child custody battles. The halachic pre-nup helps avoid such situations.

You might not agree with rav schecter, but he is still a Gadol and requires the kavod of a Gadol. Calling him a Kofer is a huge averah

Nish said

The purpose of a kesubah was to discourage divorce. The purpose of these prenups is to make it easier.

Most people can see and easily understand the difference. Those who don’t may be a shoteh, kofer does not really identify their issue

I think Rav Shecter understands the differnce and is not a Shoteh or a Kofer and certainly understands the issue

Soarin – I knew a girl that broke off an engagement many years ago because she was being pressured to sign a prenup. This was not a halachic prenup, it was a financial one. The impression I had was that he (or his parents) were trying to ensure that she wasn’t a gold digger. She was in fact a very nice girl and not that type at all, she came from a very poor and disadvantaged single parent home and was scared to sign it. It was obvious that if things went wrong in the marriage he was not prepared to take care of her and they broke the engagement. It took her a few years to get married after that, but now she’s happily married to a very nice man and has a few children. I’m not sure what happened to him.

In the secular society, a “prenup’ generally is a document to preserve one side’s finances in case of a divorce (to discourage people marrying for money and trying to “cash’ in in case of a divorce).

As far as I know- the so-called “prenup’ that is being discussed here is a document that binds chosson and kallah to bring their differences in front of a bais din when the marriage has irrevocably broken down. It was introduced some years ago to prevent the case of agunos- when the husband is holding up the get -generally to extort money.

It was drafted by many Poskim and ,at the outset, there was opposition by some Poskim as it may be a ‘get me-usah” (a get that the husbsnd was forced to give). However, after reviewing the document that was in question, most Poskim concluded that it is NOT a “get me-usah” and , as mentioned by many, is being used in a number of marriages.

In view of the problem of agunot- a serious problem, by the way- one should not criticize Rabbonim that insist on having this document.

naysberg: You ignore the elephant in the room: the refusal of husbands to give their wives a get and trying to extort money from the girl’s family. This has become a major problem (probably always has been). the present prenups are primarily made for this purpose. It has also been conclusively accepted that it is NOT a “get me-useh’. By the way, there are other instances in halacha where the husband is forced to give a get and we say : “at shejomar rotzeh ani”.

Any money earned during marriage (by either parties) belongs to the husband.

Unless, of course, she decides that she wants to keep her money and pay for her own support. In a situation where the wife works and the husband does not, it makes financial sense for her to do exactly that.

The Wolf

Wolf: She can’t decide that when they are getting divorced. She would have had to state that when they were first married.

Feif: Very well. So if someone wants to get remarried and have kids with some poskim holding its fine while other poskim holding the kids will be mamzeirim, there is no law stopping her. But she and her kids will bear the consequences. Many people won’t marry someone considered a mamzer by great poskim, even if some others disagree.

I ahve heqard of beating a recalcitrant husband until he says he wants to give the divorce. When I questioned the validity of such an obvious “forcing” of the issue, I was told, they are not beating him to force him to give a GET; they are beating the rishus of the yetzer hara out of him.

Oomis they are talking about a Prenup that is signed in Modern Orthodox circles before the Chuppah that promises that you wont keep the woman an Agunah.

In Charedi circles as there are no Agunahs they dont feel its appropriate and do not allow it

147: That’s just not true. Beis Din has complete permission to beat people in necessary circumstances.

“Did you know that the Satmar Rav held IVF was 100% assur, and that children that result from it might be mamzeirim?

The Satmar Rebbe’s machlokes with R Moshe was regarding artificial insemination. IVF had never been done by that time. And they are somewhat different. In addition, The Satmar Rebbe never said the children would be a mamzer. Perhaps he said a safek or koruv, but it was never a definite.

Thos who hold this a get meusah hold that she is an eishes ish and therefore it is not the same safek.

Ohr Chodesh: Rav Schachter is perfectly reliable on when it’s okay to force someone to give a Get.

Hmmm. I was aware my rebbeim said to not use it, but I don’t recall that they were concerned it was get meusah. Does anyone have a source for that?