Pregnancy/Infertility

I am sure that you are sensitive in the general sense, and that you never complain in front of them about how difficult it is to be pregnant or to have to find a babysitter. I assume that such things go without saying for you. I interpret your question as how to avoid causing them hurt just by existing. You feel that you are a reminder to them of their situation, and that you cause them grief. Maybe you hesitate to visit them because you don’t want to “stick it in their face” and you only call when your baby is sleeping. That is respectful and kind, but you won’t be able to maintain a stinted relationship.

I find myself giving the same advice as in most interpersonal situations. You are not the cause. People in such a situation may feel jealous or hurt, it is natural. But it is they who must learn to deal with their emotions. They are responsible for their emotions and reactions. I doubt that they want to lose a friendship with you, and if they are smart they will do what it takes to get in control of their feelings. Your job is to not withdraw your friendship and to never complain to them about a situation they wish for. If you are doing everything right, then the rest is not up to you.

I knew someone who had no children for a number of years, and she was not able to remain friends with anyone who had children. They all felt uncomfortable around her and one by one began to have less to do with her. B”H now she has children, but I don’t know if any of the old friends returned. She should have learned to deal with her situation, and should have sought help. She suffered more because she did not. I don’t know of anyone who was insensitive (of course, sometimes people slip, but in general not). The loss of friendship was entirely her own fault. (Some people were even afraid of Eyin hara from her)

P.S. areivim: Notice that I am not saying “geit mir nicht un”. I am saying that it is the offended party who should seek help if they cannot deal with a sensitive person like SJS.

I believe this is the first time I disagree with squeak. You can never be sensitive enough and you can’t place the responsibility on the other party. There is nothing they can do to control such painful feelings.

I basically agree with ames’ approach.

But, there definitely is such a thing as an ayin harah from such a person. It’s not maliciousness, or at all intentional; just very very difficult to swallow such news. Despite all this, a true friend WILL be happy for you and you should keep her involved- for her sake and for yours- to preserve the relationship.

I think she’ll be grateful in the end.

SJS, I think you have been given some very good advice here. Don’t exclude them, it will hurt them more. But also, don’t be in their face about it, either. If there are days when you feel icky, find another girlfriend to vent to. When you are excited, share it with someone else, but don’t go out of your way to avoid these friends. It’s chalilah v’chas and l’havdil eleph alphai havdalos,when a women is widowed at a young age lo aleinu, and her friends avoid her for fear of not knowing how to simply BE around her. That avoidance is very hurtful, though people do it out of a sense of helplessness, and not out of wanting to be hurtful.

I think from all I have seen you post, that you are a very caring, sensitive woman, and I trust you to know the right thing to say and do in front of these friends. My husband and I have dear, dear friends of over 30 years, who never had children and whose attempts to adopt also did not yield success. What made it worse was that the wife and I were both pregnant at the sdame time (her one and only pregnancy), and we both miscarried, unfortunately, within a week or so of each other. I already ahd one child, and went on to have four more, B”H. She never again conceived. I was never worried that they would resent hearing about our pregnancies and babies, but I likewise did not want to rub salt in a wound. So we saved our “baby” talk for other close friends, and let them initiate any other baby conversation, such as asking us how our children were. After a couple of decades, it became easier for them, as they accepted the situation. Some people will find it harder to be so accepting, and I am sure you will continue to be a loving friend and not cause them undue pain. But remember this, YOU are not responsible for their situation or even hwo they deal with it. Try to always take your cues from them.

Above all (and since I clearly missed a crucial post or two about you), everything should be with mazal and bracha and you should be a healthy mommy with a beautiful, healthy baby, B”EH.

one more point that i think someone mentioned is to daven for her during the pregnancy and labor. they say that during labor is a tremendous time for tfilla. If you can, have her in mind.

I’ve had fertility problems. It was 5 years and an operation until I had my first child, then five more years and ANOTHER operation until my second child was born. You can’t not tell your friend about your pregnancy but I will agree with with squeek not to complain to your friend about your difficulies either with pregnancy or with your kids. You will lose your friend if you try to be oversensative and not say anything. I had a good friend who, like me, was trying to get pregnant. We both got pregnant at the same time but was afraid to tell the other. The relationship became very strained. By the time one of us (I don’t remember who it was) finally told the good news, the relationship was too uncomfortable to resume the wasy it was.

Another friend, when he heard that I was expecting, said that he can take credit because shortly before that he had said something that made me very sad. He said that Hashem must have seen how unhappy I was and finally gave me a child. He is now a prominent rav and this was many years ago when we were both young and stupid, but I don’t have to tell you that I did not feel grateful to him for his “help”. Moral: Don’t give such “help”.

Another friend tried to sympathise with me so when I told her that I was going to start fetility testing for the 2nd time, she started telling me how she also wanted to because she has only 5 children and wanted more. Moral: Don’t be that sympathetic.

I’m sorry, I think I went way off the topic. I’m surprised to see that after more than 25 years and 4 children, it still hurts.

SJSinNYC, good luck. I wish you and your friend the best. You sound like a good person. I’m sure you will do the right thing. I am not angry at the people that said stupid things. It didn’t even break up any friendships. Silence did though.

B’shaa tovah.

I agree with ames, squeak, smartcookie & yes, even oomis.

I am reminded of a story that happened with Rav Nachman Bulman Z”L. He had a daughter who had been married for a while with no pregnancy forthcoming. One day a man came into his shul and asked him if eh could give his daughter a bracha because she was married for a while and was having trouble conceiving. The rov replied that of course he could daven for her, but that he had tzoros with his own child’s infertility, so he didn’t know how much help he would be with someone else’s child. He then went on to say that it is well known that when one davens for another person and one needs the same thing himself, that he is answered first. So he suggested that he give his daughter’s name to the man to give to his daughter, and he took the name of the man’s daughter to give to his own daughter, and they should daven for each other to have a baby. The Rov’s daughter began davening immediately, and the other man was able to give the name of the rov’s daughter to his daughter two weeks later, and she began to daven for the other woman. They both became pregnant a month apart. One gave birth two weeks overdue, and the other gave birth two weeks early – both on the same day! True story. I knew the Rov. I believe in the koach of tefila, though sometimes the answer is not what we would hope for. But there is no question that davening for someone else can be of great benefit. The benefit accrues to us as well, as our davening for the sake of other people can ultimately inspire Hashem’s rachamim on us, as well.

I hope that all Jewish women everywhere who are trying so hard to become pregnant, should be quickly answered affirmatively by Hashem, in good health, and be zochos to bring up healthy children to Torah, chuppah, and maasim tovim.

RY- i fully agree that we have the power to avoid agmas nefesh, but we should definitely be careful not to do something that will directly cause an ayin hara. One has nothing to do with the next. I agree she should be involved, I agree you should maintain the relationship etc. I noted all this in the beginning. However, there’s a way of going about this so that the situation doesn’t become unbearably painful and therefore causing ayin hara….

On the topic of pregnancy, does any one here know the mekor for the minhag some have not to go to zoos or other such places during pregnancy? more info on this would be appreciated.

“On the topic of pregnancy, does any one here know the mekor for the minhag some have not to go to zoos or other such places during pregnancy? more info on this would be appreciated”

I do NOT know of an hlachic makor, however, it makes a great deal of sense to me that there is probably a reason for the old-wives’ notion that what a woman sees in pregnancy can affect her unborn child. Perhaps that idea stems from the story of Yaakov Avinu and Lavan’s flocks of sheep that he gave to Yaakov in “payment” under very strict guidelines. They began giving birth to speckled, striped, etc. lambs when Yaakov put rods on which he cut spotted and striped patterns, in their watering troughs. When they saw these sticks they were startled and the rams approached them, and then they gave birth to lambs with the same designs on their bodies as those rods, thus ensuring that Lavan could not cheat Yaakov out of his fair pay. This would seem to be a credible source for the idea that what a female sees can affect the children she will have.

amicha- i agree with that. It’s ALMOST impossible, not at all natural

“the old-wives’ notion that what a woman sees in pregnancy can affect her unborn child.”

old-wives’ notion?? The Mekor you gave is actually correct & this minhag has many mekoros.

Bli”n I will try to look them up for you but any of the frum pregnancy books should discuss it. Check there. Specifically “The halachos of pregnancy & chidbirth”. I don’t remember the Rav’s (author) name but he was a talmid of R’ Tuvia Goldstein Ztz”l.

Interesting, that it is not only an OW”N after all. Now I would also like to know if there is an actual halacha (not minhag) for a pregnant woman to not go to a levaya. If so, is it the entire levaya or just the actual cemetery kevura that is the problem? What happens in the case of the death of a paren – is it assur for the pregnant woman to attend her parent’s funeral? Or is this out of concern that she will be too emotional and it could be bad for the unborn child?

I just realized that I neglected to mention that when she’s pregnant she FOR SURE should not step into a cemetery.

As I mentioned the GR”A held that it is a big sakana for a woman to ever enter a cemetery.

Speak to your LOR.

NP, in my community and family we hold the minhag that a pregnant woman should not go to the cemetery for sure, but I wondered about the levaya in the shul or chapel itself.

I know of someone who attended a parent’s levaya & k’vurah while pregnant, on the advice of a major poseik.

Woah, oomis, just a second,

Noone EVER said it’s a halacha (at least noone I know of). It’s an issue of sakana & simply depends on how catious one’s Rav feels he needs to be. Generally these sort of things go by community minhag.

I’ve never heard of staying out of the shul or chapel & being that the whole issue is avoiding “mazikim” that frequent cemeteries it would seem that the shul or chapel would’nt be a problem.

Sjs,

I give you a bracha to never be in this situation but maybe if you better understood the damage it could do to you, you would feel differently.

This is not a situation of “what you don’t know can’t hurt you”.

Sjs,

lol, Major miscommunication!

I was not referring to your statement about you father’s burial.

I not referring to your first statement “If chas v’shalom I was in this situation, I think I would go to the cemetary anyway.”

I’m very sorry for your loss.

Boruch Dayan Emes, May we hear only simchos from each other.

SJS,

boruch dayan emes. I’m sorry about your loss, may she be a melitza yeshara for you, your family and for klal yisroel.

” However she was fascinated by bears and just had to take a peek at them. Sure enough her child was born with Bare-feet………”

LOL!!!!! It probably was more than she could bear. This type of joke was a “berel” of laughs.

SJSinNYC: baruch dayan haemes!!! so sorry to hear that!!!