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in the past couple of weeks the yated readers write has had several letters regarding paying shadchanim per date etc.i find it all quite ridiculous.how can we expect people to pay shadchanim for the work they WILL do when these same people are the ones that dont pay tuition or expect to pay greatly reduced tuition. the yeshivos are dying for money,the rebbeim and teachers are struggling to make ends meet and the parents who cant seem to come up with money for them are now taking a little winter break in miami beach.the parents all want a premium yeshiva education for their children but dont want to pay for it.its the same with shidduchim.everyone wants a great shidduch for their son or daughter but they dont want to pay for it.times have changed from way back in the heim.back then they didnt have phones,indoor plumbing and take out. back then the shadchanim didnt get paid till after the shidduch was a done deal.nobody plucks their own chickens anymore or has a carp swimming in their bathtub for a month before pesach.things evolve and progress along with the times. paying a shadchan a small fee for all the effort,time and phone calls to redd your child a shidduch is only mentchluch. i am not a shadchan. as a matter of fact i have a daughter in shidduchim. my pet peeve with the shadchanim is that i cant get them to answer the phone,return calls or return an email and I WANT TO PAY THEM.
sending them a gift might help them re-consider working for you…try many shadchanim the best is through emailing them/text them…write exactly what you would tell them over the phone then mention you want to speak to them and ask when its convenient to call…sometimes having someone who does have a kesher with them to call for your behalf will work the key is network….one thing youll learn is which shadchanim you want to deal with and which ones have suitable boys for your daughter….IY”H it should go smoothly!!
I feel very strongly that shadchanim should be payed for their hard efforts – once the shidduch is complete. Like many people have said, the shadchan is like a broker who only gets paid once everything is complete. Shadchanim should be paid a decent amount – if someone could afford to spend thousands on flowers, the same should be done for shadchanim. One should always be thankful and courteous to shadchanim but actual payment comes once it’s a done deal.
Dunno:
If shadchanim where compensated for bringing about date number 2 and date number 4 then
1. we would have hundreds more quality shadchanim
2. slightly older girls would get tons of attention
3. it would be better for all the girls as many many more people would be looking out for them.
I’m not saying its a halachic obligation (it’s not so long as that has not yet become standard minhag). I’m simply saying that it will work and it will make shidduchim easier all around. Not by paying ahead of time for their attention, but instead by treating them like successes if your child goes to a date numbe 2 and date number 4.
Communities that have tried are very very pleased witht he results and other communities and org are looking to duplicate it.
Demo: your post is great, except that pre-paying isn’t nearly as effective as showing appreication and compensating for whatever quality attention you received.
PRE-paying???
You gotta be kidding!
How about POST-dating the check!?!
With all due respect to hard working, honest shadchanim, how about the many who do NOT give accurate information, who intentionally omit important information, and who even LIE because all they care about is being able to say they made the shidduch, AND, of course, getting the shaddchanus.
How often are things discovered about a chasan or kallah AFTER the chasuna that SHOULD have been told to parents, and that the shadchan DID KNOW, or SHOULD HAVE known.
So, here’s something to think about…
If a marriage quickly dissolves because of the shadchan’s “malpractice”, should the shadchan have any liability for all the emotional (and financial) damage?!?
Now, being realistic, I know that will never happen, but – even injury lawyers do not get payed unless and until they win the case for you.
Has it been proven that community hired shadchanim work? How does it work they meet singles in a shul or something and how can one shadchan deal with everyone?
A Thank you gift should be the accepted way of thanking the shadchanim who work for you…not only professional shadchanim..(oh nuts candy tray,$$$, flowers, taking the shadchans kids out for lunch!) all thoughtful gestures to show appreciation
and also as an aside: I think all singles should get their names out in more places then their own community
I for one am NOT a proponenet of community hired shadchanim. It has produced very mixed results. I don’t bleieve that it is very effective. One shadchan can not foucs on tens or hundreds of girls, and the cost to pay salaries to enought shadchanim to look out for a community is clearlyl prohibitive.
I’m a proponent of compensating whomever it is that gets a quality date set up. That DOES work. and it gets attention from far more than just the one hired shadcahn. This is a way that HS teachers, recent married alumnin AND shadchanim from all over will give attention to that community.
it works-try it!
“sending them a gift might help them re-consider working for you”
dont u mean a bribe?
It is ridiculous to pay a fee before. Like Demo said they hardly even answer the phones when you call and until they call back can take some time. I understand that this is some peoples jobs, but this should really be done from the heart. Ok fine they will get paid if it does work out but to pay a fee per date? I feel bad for some guys who go out with many girls. Paying for the date and the shadchan? He will be broke before he finds the one lol
Anyways if there was only a fee if it worked out, I feel shadchanim would put in a little more effort than just randomly coming up with a name right off their head. If they are getting money for every date they probably don’t put in as much effort because if it doesn’t work out this time then the’ll set them up with someone else, Oh rite we get paid for each date so why not!!!!
I know of a community who hired a shadchan and they’re seeing excellent results! But I won’t tell you which community…
Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of shidduchim made by shadchanim as compared to those made by friends and family?
Miamigirl: and you wonder why so many young couples dabble in redding shidduchim and then quit. When people are treated like failures, feel like failures, they quit. If the young people, especially relatively newly marrieds, who tried and got some dates going where appreciated for their time and effort they would stick with it and girls (especiall slighlty older ones) would be getting much much more attention.
This is not about Shadchanim “as in proffesinals”, this is simply a effective way to generate far more people paying attention to the slighlty older girls.
I don’t know about you but getting to a date number four is not easy at all. if you think any silly idea get there, well it doesn’t.
Goq: probaly means that they will realize they were appreciated for the time and effort they extended. when treated like that most humans reciprocate. As opposed to quiting or focusing on the people who don’t aprreciate and aren’t thankful for the time you spent on them.
what better way to show you appreciate someone than by bribing them ?
Maybe a candy dish isnt enough maybe the single should become the shadchans servant for a day, shine their shoes, do their laundry?
(feels good to be back and I didn’t even start)
Pre paying shadchanim?! Preposterous! Ridiculous! Absurd!
I guess the only reason this practice can exist is through desperation, or great wealth. Give the money to reliable tzeddaka
cases & you will have much more Hatzlacha.
The point of dating is to find the basherte, not to get a lot of dates, or even a few. If you aren’t getting any dates find a better shaddchan, the answer isn’t by throwing money at them. For after all this is no guarantee whatsoever that he or she will redt you your Basherte. Probably after you pay them your neighbor will redt you your basherte for free. Please Yidden! your basherte, as well as your everything comes from HB”H,
not the Shadchan!
When it comes to shidduchim seems there are emotions that run the full gamut. At one extreme we have those who feel shadchanim are underpaid, underappreciated, misused and abused and on the other extreme are those who claim shadchannim ignore you and dont give you the time of day (along with several choice comments about witholding pertinent information and outright lying). A very toxic mix. Are there any professional shadchannim reading this? What is YOUR take?
it’s a simple question of business model.
In the current model, the shadchan takes all the risk: the shadchan either gets the entire shadchanut, or nothing.
If you want the service provider to take all the risk, you invariably have to pay them more for taking the risk.
This is a popular business model used by many real estate agents, lawyers (who take contingency cases), farmers (who take the entire risk of crop failure), etc.
Many people in those businesses have adopted different models – fee for service OR risk-sharing. There are many real estate agents who work on a fee-for-service or hourly basis. There are farmers who will sell you a share of their crops (before the season begins).
For the most part the consumers cost for those services is lower with the second model, yet people are mostly unwilling to use that model. Here, we have a perfect case of that.
If shadchans were paid fee-for-services, you would probably pay them less. You could pay a subscription fee, then a certain amount for each service (date) they provide. If you don’t like the quality of their services take your business elsewhere.
Change is hard, but it’s not unreasonable to compensate someone for work done. you do that with your physician, right? The doctor gets paid whether or not the operation is a success.
apashutayid:
The vast majority of readers are of the opinion that there are quite a few shadchanim who should be SUED for malpractice. There should be a “lemon law” applied to marriages that fail within the first six months. It is working in the used car industry!
The few advocates for the shadchanim are members of the “International Brotherhood of Shadchanim Local 613”. They use statistics and crisis to hype people up and convince them that they pay new fees never associated with shadchanim.
APY:
“Are there any professional shadchannim reading this? What is YOUR take?”
this was one shadchan’s recent response in the Yated
A Shadchan
APY-
your comment abuot the gamut is on the mark. clearly the sytsem is broken. The model I have promoted will go along way towards working on both sides.
Ever wonder why the feelings run sooo strong on both sides of the issue… IS there a comparable field where the people helping and the people being helped have such strong opposite feelings?
Artchill. I wasnt aware you were appointed spokesperson for the vast majority of readers.
ronrsr; WHAT RISK? Investing money, a few phone calls?
Those who do the job well make plenty of money.
AZ, can I assume your quote from A Shadchan was from Readers Write and not the Shidduch column?
Bei_hasdorim:
Shadchanim making Plenty of money????
how many shidduchim to you think the typical busy shadchan makes each year…..
How many shidduchim do you think the absolute top top shadchanim make each year….
“IS there a comparable field where the people helping and the people being helped have such strong opposite feelings?”
Best I can come up with is used car dealerships and auto mechanics. people either swear they are great, or are ready to kill them.
I personally feel against paying after 2/4 or 3/5 (because some people do the two date minimum) because there are so many shadchanim that outright lie about either side. A girl was telling me about a shadchan she was using and wanted to know if it was normal the way she was feeling. “Just go out on another one”. “Just try it- maybe he’ll be XYZ on the next one and he is just shy…”
Maybe this payment schedule will just make people stop dating when it could be working because “he/she is just not worth the $$$ to try it”.
What about the idea that people don’t reveal significant medical information about one party until they reach date 5 or whatever? then the shadchan makes $$ (date 2 and 4) knowing it very well might not work out.
APY: you discussed a field where the customre end is divided. I didn’t know to many car dealers or auto mechanics who have complained that they get calls all hours of the day and night etc.
So i repeat my question:
“IS there a comparable field where the people helping and the people being helped have such strong opposite feelings?”
and I’ll add to is.. a comparable field that there seems to be such a shortage of providers. In the standard broker fields e.g. real estate, insurance, loans etc. there doesn’t seem to be a dearth of providers.
If shadchanus was such a wonderful lucrative proffesion why is there such a shortage??
havesomeseichel
Exactly.
Havesome/dunno:
Regarding individuals not continuing due to the cost, that is why it has so far being implemented by communities and not by the individuals.
As for unscruplous shadchanim, there will always be some abusers to a system, to date it hasn’t been a issue and anyone who takes advantage can always be disinvited from the project.
As for the two date minimum: Even getting to one date takes a load of work. If it’s not a absolute bomb the shadchan would receive 100 which is reasonable and thus we would have a army of people paying attention to the slightly older girls.
Since AZ didn’t answer, I just got the current Yated; it was not one of the roundtable shadchanim. (Phew….)
AZ, why is 100 reasonable? This could add up. If it plays out the way you see it, it will add up because the girls will get more dates. (And if it’s just on the girls’ side surely no respectable shadchan will give a kickback, or token of his appreciation, to the boys he sets up. Because there is nothing in it for the boys as the boys can get dates easily.)
I realize this can’t work all the time, but, here’s a wild idea…
Most frum families have 4 or more (often MANY more) kids.
Why not at least try, when the ages work out, of course, for brothers and sisters to make shidduchim for their siblings with their friends! They know the true matzav of their friends, i.e. what kind of people they are, and of course, they also know what their siblings are really like (and what they really want) as well.
I realize the ages may not always work out, and the personalities may not always work out, but this me’halaich should be the first method tried. This way everybody knows the truth about they’re getting, and parents could save $$$ on shadchanus.
AinOhdMilvado
I think siblings thinking of shidduchim for each other is far more common than you think.
Tzippi:
you are quite comical. you write if it plays out and the girls will get more dates (in other words we will be succesful in alleviating the crisis because more dates will mean more marriages)…. and yet you complain that it’s not a good thing because it will add up.
I guess you prefer the present tragic situation.
Ain: Great Idea. I would add friends classmates and teachers who know the singles well.
One question: How do you suggest encourging your suggestion to take hold.
If I may, the model I presented will yield the exact result you have proposed.
AZ
Speaking of teachers, I suggested something like this a while ago. I think it would be great if teachers and Rebbeim would get together solely to try to make shidduchim.
Hey, I’ll take comical over combatative any day.
I forgot that the community pays, and not the individual. Is that even if it’s a friend or someone else who makes the shidduch, not a community-connected pro? And what of the people who do a private shidduch and really don’t want the community people to know that they’re going out; they’d like to keep it quiet.
Again, I know of communities that have hired shadchanim. I’m curious how they operate. I really don’t think they require the families sacrificing their privacy if they don’t want anyone besides the two parties and the shadchan knowing.
Please, spell things out for us. We’re a bit thick, some of us.
Tzippi:
What does this have to do with “community connected pros”. Communities are reaching out to the boys and girls who have gotten married in the last 5-10 years as well as to the teachers in the High Schools and inviting them to join the program. (in additon to inviting shadchanim from all over)
This is the way to have a ton more people staying the course and redd shidduchim.
Each and every community will run the specifics of the program however they see fit. I have simply presented the basic model.
tzippi: If you are interested in details of the program to bring it to your community, I would suggest contacting the NASI Project and they will be glad to guide you through the process.
Dunno: but if you refuse to employ the model i’ve presented how are you going to keep them motivated.
Case in point. I was told today of a group of women who decided 3 years ago to work as a group on shidduchim. The put in many many hours, networking, meeting, sharing ideas redding shidduchim following up etc.
over the course of 8 months they set up quite a few dates.
Do you know how many shidduchim they made?
zero….
what do you think happened after 8 months…
they quit….. and decided to leave it to “those who are better at it”
now if they would’ve have been appreciated and compensaed along the way they would’ve stayed the course.
In fact, in speaking to many shadchanim it has become apparent that the primary difference between people who are shadchanim longer term and those that quit early on, is NOT in the skill level, talent etc. BY and large it has to do with finding early success. People that had mazal and made one or two the first month or two stay the course even when they go 8 months without making a shidduch. (as a young shadchan related to me yesterday).
For the majority of people who don’t taste early success, they simply quit and leave matchmaking to those “who are good at it”.
In effect most people who put in the time and effort consistently will make shidduchim and get better at it, just most poeple never stay with it long enough to get there and why should they, it’s a thankless pursuit that subjects one to abuse and harrasment.
Hence we don’t have anyone for the girls to turn to…
AZ
You bring up your point again and again but I just don’t agree. And I’m a single girl in shidduchim…
Isn’t it customary that friends and acquaintances that make a shidduch (but are not a professional shadchan) take less $$ and even sometimes get an expensive gift in lieu of cash?
Dunno: You don’t have to agree, I’m just promoting a concept that is the best idea out there. It has been developed by NASI after 3 years of studying the issue from many many angles. If anyone has any other effective tested and reasonable ideas let’s do it!
If you are happy with the status quo facing the girls, there’s not much i can do for you.
I for one am not in shidduchim, my children are nowehere near shidduch age and my siblings and siblings in law are not in shidduchim.
I guess I can’t be accused of being a noygeya b’davar.
I’m not talking to NASI, as I’m not going to mess with success. Our program is working.
I guess I just get confused easily.
You, and others, mention compensating a shadchan. If it’s not through the NASI plan, say it’s informal, a friend, or another shadchan one meets, who’s gonna pay?
If NASI has such a great plan, why aren’t the details publicized to generate interest?
AZ
I honestly think the whole “shidduch crisis” is blown out of proportion. Someone planted the idea in girls’ minds that guys always have the upper hand so many end up settling for something less than they deserve.
Just a quick question- some people have mentioned that “the community will pay the shadchan”.
A. Is this only for “community sponsored shadchanim”?
B. For the pay per date idea?
For both A and B:
Who is this wonderful couple named Mr. and Mrs. Community? I am sure every tzeddakah organization would love to get them on the mailing list….TANSTAAFL.
havesome:
The model I have been promoting is for communities/shuls to compensate people who produce date #2/#4 for the slightly older girls.
It is irrelevant whether the person who set up the dates is a “proffesional shadchan” (whatever that means) or not.
In fact the a key success of the model lies in it’s empowerment of people on the local level such as Hight School teachers, alumni, friends etc. who may have been inclined in the past to put in the effort but have been burned and quit. This model would empower them to stay the course.
Success breeds Succes.
Mr. and Mrs. Community are any individual or group of people in any community who would like to make a huge difference in the shidduch scene for the girls of their community.
The city that was the first to do it and has been running it for 9 months now has seen
300+ shidduchim redd
64 different dates set up
18 girls dating seriously
7 engagments (there where other local engagments, but not related to the project)
and the cost……..
over 9 months
around 11K
and it is only getting better as the program initally started by reaching out only to shadchanim, and now they are reaching out to HS teachers, local boys and girls who got married in the last 5-10 years etc.
Tzippi: As i’ve said before. If you would like details contact NASI. They have a game plan and they are following it. I guess your “need” to know isn’t part of their game plan.
Dunno: you mentioned that you are a single girl. As such I have no need to scare you with the facts. Bezras Hashem you will be a beneficiary of the tremendous efforts being extened on behalf of you and all the other single girls out there.
AZ
I don’t agree with the “facts” but thanks for the bracha.
Dunno: interesting response….. But as i mentioned i’m not going to debate single girls on this, unless you insist.They are the last ones i’m looking to convince..
AZ
Not worth debating. Let’s just agree to disagree.
Dunno: No dice. I’ll agree to not bother explaining to you, as it is to painful.
If you had a discussion with a someone whether there shabbos is every seventh day or every 10th day. would you call that agree to disagree or would say agree to not bother explaining.
I will not concede that there is a legitimate difference of opinion on this matter, and i’m a but suprised that you would take on someting 70 R”Y and gedolim who have voiced their opinion on this matter
AZ, did the 70 gedolim endorse the idea of boys considering older girls as marriage material, or was that also a blanket endorsement of NASI?
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