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Today, there over 2 million Palestinians living in the “West Bank”, the area Israel captured from Jordan in 1967 but never annexed. If you were the Prime Minister of Israel today, what would you do with this land and its inhabitants?
Move them to Jordan and be done with it.
No hisgarus b’umos going on here. None whatsoever.
There’s no solution. The State created an irreparable monster.
Joseph, two million is a gross exaggeration. Demographers have proven that the PA’s figures are inflated. In an case, there may not be a practical solution right now. If so Netanyahu’s policy of not doing anything is correct. Ideally, they should be given generous resettlement allowances by an international fund in order to permanently emigrate to various countries that need moneyed immigrants or to establish a state on some island. In fact, polls show that the majority would leave if they had somewhere to go – and these are the ones who are willing to admit it to a pollster.
Israel cannot keep the Palestinians as permanent second class citizens. They really only have two choices, make them citizens of Israel or give them a Palestinian state. No one wants them to be citizens so there should be a Palestinian state.
However, Israel is under no obligation to give them the entire West Bank. Palestine has no historical borders so there is no land to “return” to them. What should be done, and I think what sort of has been done in the past, is Israel needs to offer them a state which comprises say about half of the West Bank carved out in such a way that most if not all of the Jewish communities remain part of Israel. Any Palestinians “stuck” in Israel would become full citizens of Israel and any Jews “stuck” in the new Palestinian state would become full equal citizens in the new state. And if the new Palestinian state would commit act of terrorism against Israel, that would be an act of war by a sovereign nation and Israel should blow them out of the water.
As long as the Palestinian leadership won’t take anything less than the entire West Bank, then the Palestinians won’t get a state, and the only ones to blame are their own leadership.
Perhaps Israel can annex piece by piece and enforce the curriculum enough that they should be able to safely become citizens or safely become their own state. This can’t happen in actuality for many reasons, though. There’s little doubt that this situation won’t be rectified before Moshiach. They are serving the same purpose the Plishtim served in the time of Shlomo Hamelech, to be pests. This is what keeps us in check, keeping us from being too proud.
DY: Nope. Seems like the Umos being Misgareh Banu to me.
You don’t think saying, “Move them to Jordan and be done with it” is provocative??!!
Make peace with the Arabs. Stop trying to carve out mini-states and return to the 1918 agreement of one large Islamic state (including at the minimum all Arabs east of Suez) with an autonomous Jewish community (well a well equipped militia – in the middle east such things are normal). If need be, I’ld offer to have Israel agree to adopt Islamic law except for matters where halacha is different (we’ld have to give up ribis, toeiva, etc.).
The current policy of the zionists guarantees permanent warfare which the whole Islamic world, not just the Palestinians but all the Arabs and the many non-Arab countries such as Iran, Turkey and Pakistan. It’s a no-win situation for the zionists. They can never conquer such a large number of people, and if for only a split second the Muslims stop fighting each other, the zionists can and will be destroyed in an instant.
DY: It’s not called Hisgarus B’umos to defend ourselves when they are attacking us.
Anyone who thinks it is practical to create a Palestinian state anytime in the near future is an idiot.
Move them all to Jordan is also completely impractical, but makes more sense.
Status quo is literally the only practical solution, as bad as that is.
Move them to Jordan and be done with it.
Considering the fact that Jordan doesn’t want them, how do you propose to do that?
The Wolf
akuperma: That’s your practical solution? Aside from the fact that it’s not 1918, what did the Arabs do in in 1929 in Chevron and other such instances before there was a state. They are far more radicalized now and would try to butcher us.
The Arabs don’t really want a so-called Palestinian State, only the means to destroy us and they’ve said so themselves.
They do have administrative autonomy in the areas in which they live.
Israel should annex the whole thing, offer citizenship to the Arabs who declare their allegiance to the State and pay the rest to leave. Obama is allowing many Muslims into the U.S., so you can have them all. The U.S. will become just like Europe thanks to the President some of you love so much.
Their numbers are greatly exaggerated as they rely on the Arabs for the information and we know their propensity for telling the truth.
IY”H, Moshiach will be here soon and the whole issue will be rendered moot.
I propose a population exchange – Arabs in EY for Americans who are halachically Jewish. Details can be worked out by a detail person.
Responding to BarryLS1.
Correct that few Arabs want a Palestinian State. They want the Arab world (if not the Islamic world) unified as it was (briefly) in the medieval period, so that one can go from Karachi to Rabat, speaking Arab, being Muslim, and being at home.
The Arabs aren’t about to leave. You can either make peace, or keep fighting. To “win” Israel needs to destroy the Islamic world’s ability to wage war, just as the US victory over the Nazis required total conquest. The Israelis are outnumbered roughly 150 to 1 (not including Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa and southeast Asia). To compare to North America, the ratio is worse than that facing the Indians (Native Americans) – and guess what their chances of reclaiming their homeland are. Sooner or later Israel will fall, and it will be messy. Already Israelis are increasingly unwilling to serve in their army or to pay taxes sufficient to maintain the army. Already the Muslims have nuclear weapons (remember, Pakistan is Muslim, albeit preoccupied by India for the moment). Israel’s long term future is bleak.
The only agreement acceptable to the otherside is for Israel to cease existing. Thus the best Israel can do is to find a way to cease existing without getting all the Jews of the yishuv destroyed. We need to insist on what is critical (Torah and Mitsvos) and compromise on what is not critical for survival (a flag, having a Jew running the government, using European-American law, etc.).
Of course you can rely on a miracle and hope for divine intervention. Perhaps Herzl and Ben Gurion really were the meshiach (or maybe Netanyahu or Herzog is). However we have no mesoret (tradition) that the meshiach will be fool, so that probably rules them out. For those of us who live in the real world, the best alternative is to make peace, and while the Muslims have never objected to Jews living Torah-based lives, they will never agree to being ruled by Jews so if we want peace, we have to stop trying to rule over them.
And the alternative will be the anhiliation of the yishuv.
No Meir Kahana loyalists mentioned nuclear bombs yet? And to think that Boruch Marzel almost made it into the Knesset.
“The Muslims have never objected to Jews living Torah-based lives” This is errant nonsense. Rambam wrote “Iggeret HaShmad” in the wake of forced conversions of Jews in Morocco. In Yemen fatherless Jewish children under thirteen were forceably placed in Moslem homes to be raised as Moslems (unless they were married – which is why girls whose fathers died r”l were quickly married off by their families). There were also forced conversions in Bukhara and Persia, among other places.
We have a mitzva to conquer EY (Ramban, Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Having a flag, a government, etc. is critical. As for the Islamic world’d ability to wage war, the Zohar says at the end of parashat Balak that they and the Western world will destroy each other and then Mashiach will come.
Give them their own state and arm every citizen. Return in a week to find everyone dead and reclaim the territory. Anyone know Netanyahu’s number?
akuperma: You can only make peace with a willing reasonable peace partner. No such entity exists. To think otherwise is living in fantasy land. We have to pay attention to what they do and what they say to each other, not the nonsense they play for world consumption.
I am sorry, but I find it ridiculous the way the world treats these people who call themselves “Palestinians”. When exactly did a palestinian nation with any conection to this ever exist? it’s like saying ” OK everyone, my houseis now a country. What!! those americans think they can tax me!?!?!? I will protest this in the UN!” and for some reason, countries all over the world support them. It’s ridiculous I tell you, ridiculous!
Status quo, but Israel should prevent Palestinians from glorifying terrorism or teaching anti-Semitism. Freedom of speech is appropriate for most times and places, but not where an entire population is fed constant racist lies that incite everyday people to random terrorist murders on a weekly basis. Palestinians need to be deradicalized, just like Southerners during Reconstruction (which pretty much failed) or Germans after WWII (which succeeded very easily somehow).
Ideally, the territories would be annexed. Palestinians would be able to apply for citizenship but most either wouldn’t apply, or would be rejected for terrorist involvement. Even if all applied and were accepted, Israel would have a Jewish majority of over 2/3rds. (This is all explained in detail in Caroline Glick’s recent book.)
Demography is on our side, since Palestinians (like everyone else in the world except Jews) will keep having fewer babies as they become richer, and the charedim will keep having large families no matter what. Even if lots of people go off the derech or become dati leumi or moderate “new charedim” or whatever, the birth rate will still stay incredibly high.
Jordan is 80% Palestinians but they are disenfranchised there, due to discrimination and gerrymandering. It’s already a Palestinian state. All they need is a government of the people and by the people. It will happen eventually.
Israel can’t create a Palestinian state, when it will just mean more Iranian-funded terror (rockets), permanent ethnic cleansing of Jews from a large swath of our historic homeland, and an unstable banana republic on our doorstep.
BarryLS1 and cooldude:
If you don’t make peace with the Muslims, then the Jewish community in Eretz Yisrael is doomed. Unless you are assuming a miracle is about to happen, the only end result is a few Israeli cities being radioactive, and all Jews in the country killed. Forget about the Palestinians, its Islam you are fighting – and we aren’t about to conquer huge amounts of territory. All it takes for the Muslims to take a vacation from their civil wars to do what the one thing they agree on – destroy Israel – and Israel is “toast.” The hareidi solution (surrender and stop trying to control the government and stop trying to rule the Muslims) offers a realistic chance. The zionist solution, constant warfare with no hope of victory, offers no prospect of survival.
akuperma: Have a little emunah. Nothing will happen to us. You’re probably more in danger than we are, as many Kabbalists have said.
Bottom line is you can’t make peace with an unwilling party. It isn’t even an issue of territory, as evidenced by the Arabs rejecting every offer they were given, even when it is almost everything they wanted.
This is all about their religious theology, which believes that there has to be a cataclysmic battle for their last Imam to come. There is nothing we can offer, short of committing mass suicide, that would please them.
There are not always a solution for everything. We just need to have faith in Hashem and know that He has a plan and everything will be ok.
For our part, we also have to have some self respect and not allow our enemies to dictate things to us. It shows weakness and they exploit it and make more demands in return for nothing.
Yeah, who needs a solution. Just let the cycle of war and terror against Jews in Israel that’s been waged against us for the past 70 years continue. Only over 25,000 Jews have died in Israel’s war and terror. Not such a big number, is it? Just march on.
The Medrash says whoever tried to make peace with these people end up with embarrassment. The Rambam applied to them the Pasuk ??? ????…??? ??????. The Satmar Rebbe held we should not give it back to the Arabs since that is too dangerous. He held they should Daven for the Medina to end safely.
I don’t think Israel would mind either approach, to annex them or to have another state worked out. The problem is that it’s not what the Arabs want.
Joseph, the last major war that they had happened in 1973. Btw, during pogroms in Ukraine during the Russian civil war between 50 to 200 thousand Yidden were murdered.
Mw, you left out one: annex piece by piece. Take one neighborhood and normalize its education and relations. Then you can move on. This is obviously not realistic since they can’t (or don’t) even control actual Israeli Arab institutions to that degree.
Who said every problem had an immediate solution? The current policy send to be to take it day by day, which is the best approach for now.
To put things in context, more Jews have been killed in the Arab-Israeli conflict than were killed by Muslims over the past 1300 years (excluding, perhaps, Jews killed in Medinah when Islam started – though the facts there are dubious since little is known about pre-Islamic Jewish communities in Arabia).
The Muslims don’t want some territory, they want all the territory. To them, Tel Aviv is just as much a settlement as Alon Shevut. They want to be able to go anywhere in Eretz Yisrael and not be in a foreign country. Zionists can never agree to that. Hareidim only care for autonomy, so in theory you could have a Hareidi-led yishuv making peace.
Given the Israel is a very secular state, whose behavior in terms of even the seven mitsvos is quite deficient, I wouldn’t count on a miracle saving them. To know what to expect, reading the beginning of Yeshayah describing similar conditions at the end of the period of the first Bayis.
1. More nonsense. In any case, we have an obligation to establish a state.
2. Actually, younger Chareidim today are generally right-wing. Certainly Sephardi Chareidim. In any case, the Arabs have made it clear that they want
EVERY Jew whose family came after 1917 to leave. This includes most Chareidim.
3. Israeli is a half-filled glass so far as religious secular is concerned. PerhapsHashem is looking at the part that is filled. Perhaps it does not matter. The time has come.
The vast majority of those who have died in the Arab-Israeli conflict died decades ago.
And this numbers is very small compared to the hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of Jews and their descendents lost to assimilation in North America. 90% or more or Jews in Israel marry other Jews and have Jewish children.
By contrast, in North America, the vast majority of Jews for the last two or three generations have married non-Jews. If they had all moved to Israel, a tiny percentage would have died in war or through terrorism, but at least their families would not have been lost to the Jewish people.
Also keep in mind that the traffic fatality rate is much higher in the US than in Israel. Life expectancy is higher in Israel, and the murder and suicide rates are lower. So while Israelis may be of greater risk of death from terror they are safer from other threats.
Overall, due to the dramatically decreased threat from assimilation, the fulfillment of the mitzvah of the settling of the land, and the greater observance level of even many secular Israelis (most chilonim fast on Yom Kippur, for example), Israel has been a great benefit to the Jewish people.
The status quo is not ideal, but the world’s preferred alternative (a two-state solution) would be worse, and the time is not right yet for a one-state solution. So we have to wait it out until a time for a proper solution comes. Puerto Ricans and Indians on reservations were under US control for decades before they had citizenship, and they still have no real voting rights in the congress or presidential elections.
Israel is a strong and successful country, with a great economy, a resilient, well-educated and increasingly religious population, and a bright future. The world’s lack of understanding of its predicament, and their irrational hatred, can’t change that. With Hashem’s help Israel is doing well. As Dovid HaMelech expressed so many times in Tehillim, everything may seem chaotic, with haters surrounding him, but he trusts in Hashem and He saves him.
Israel is a strong and successful country, with a great economy, a resilient, well-educated and increasingly religious population, and a bright future.
A great economy? Seriously? And that’s why so many people are seeking jobs or better pay… People with college degrees can get as little as $10 an hour. People with high school diplomas can get more here.
Not all the problems. The biggest problem of annexing the whole thing and granting citizenship to all at once is that they will suddenly have free passage and will make trouble. If you take it piece by piece and control those areas before you move on you wouldn’t have this problem.
Unemployment is low, the growth rate is high, start-ups are everywhere. Wages are not as high as in the US, but day school tuition in the US would wipe out any pay increase you’d get from emigrating from Israel.
akuperma,
If you don’t make peace with the Muslims, then the Jewish community in Eretz Yisrael is doomed.
It takes two sides to make peace. No matter how much one side wants to make peace and gives things up for it, if the other side’s goal is not peace, then there can be no peace.
The hareidi solution (surrender and stop trying to control the government and stop trying to rule the Muslims) offers a realistic chance.
Who would you surrender to?
Yytz, +1. I would also add that prices are lower in Israel and $10 there get you further than in the US. And the Israeli economy is in better shape than many of the European ones (bli ain horah).
akuperma – despite your knee jerk anti-tzioyni reactions to every single article on this site I’ve seen you provide an intelligent response here and there so I know you’re not a stupid guy – yet your naivete regarding the arabs is beyond the pale. Even if things weren’t as bad traditionally for us in the Muslim world as they were in xtian Europe, it was still certainly no walk in the park. The expulsion from Spain and the Inquisition weren’t necessarily as bad as the Shoa either but that doesn’t meant it wasn’t really bad. If there was honestly a chance of having a benevolent arab/muslim government that would truly offer Jews full personal/human/religious rights and a degree of autonomy I would take them up on it in a heartbeat. However I don’t buy the argument that such a scheme would have EVER been realistic (look at how they slaughter their own kind left and right in the most barbaric ways). Even the Turkish sultanate only offered us superficial and often ineffectual protection against the arabs in EY. Besides, even if you would like to truly believe that such a scenario could have theoretically played out pre-state – that ship has LOOOOOONG since sailed my friend. There is no turning back the clock on this one, arab pride won’t allow it.
The fact of the matter is while they may not be fond of us, many of the big arab players prefer us over the palestinians whom they view as a violent unpredictable headache/liability and they even have come to see us as a strategic ally against mutual enemies such as Iran even if they will never be able to admit it publicly. The Egyptians fully cooperate with us in maintaining a blockade on Gaza and they are a 1000 times more brutal with their treatment of Gazan palestinians then we are. If they were really so interested in wiping Israel out in the name of palestinian “rights” or arab conquest why would they work with us and even one up us like that? There is big money coming from the west eternally propping up this idea that the arabs will make nice with us if we just give away all our land and even many arab heads of state aren’t interested in it anymore. Stop buying into the lie.
Additionally let’s look at the scoreboard here – we left the Sinai and today it’s full of ISIS and Al Qeida that even Egypt can’t control bent on destroying us. We left Southern Lebanon and it’s now full of Hezbolla that the Lebanese army could never dream of controlling, also bent on destroying us. We left Gaza and now it’s full of Hamas and Jihad Islami that we can’t control, yes – bent on destroying us. See the pattern here with every time we cede territory? Now some would suggest to give up Yehuda and Shomron, where we have more of a biblical connection to than Gush Dan so that the next group of Jihadists will be in spitting distance of the airport?
Who says that if we annex we need to give them all citizenship? Japan only offers citizenship to ethnic Japanese, all others can only get some sort of residency, and nobody is calling them racist for doing so. Let’s off them the chance to leave, and if they want to stay they can have full personal rights (we can’t rob or kill them) but minus national rights (can’t vote or run for government, etc). Many will threaten sanctions but anyway we have started developing strong economic relationships with the east such as India and China, and they are FAR more interested in what kind of military or high tech advantages we have to offer them than any boycott on behalf of a bunch of murderous terrorists.
“Who says that if we annex we need to give them all citizenship?”
If you annex and deny citizenship, you will truly have a South African Apartheid situation. You can’t have 1/3 of your population with no civil rights and expect to be called a democracy. Israel will be slapped with UN sanctions and Jews in the US will (correctly) support such. Another Intifada will ensue and the entire would will support the Arabs.
The US gave citizenship to French citizens when it annexed Louisiana, to Spanish subjects when it annexed Florida (and later Puerto Rico), to Texas citizens when it annexed Texas, to Mexican Citizens when it annexed the Southwest (including Mexicans who had just served in the Mexican Army against the US), to Russian subjects when it annexed Alaska, and to Hawaii citizens when it annexed Hawaii.
Dismantle the whole state problem solved
I have a solution to make everyone healthier. Simply find a cure for every disease!
There are so many refugees, real ones, not ones from 2 generations back, thruout the M.E. now.
What makes these “refugees” so special?
There should be a solution to all the refugees in the M.E. because of all the conflicts, present and past , and the onus of solving it should be laid on the doorstep of the Arab League, wealthy Arab nations, who caused the former mess and contributed to the present mess.
Let the Arabs decide what to do with all their refugees.
It will be fair and just, seeing that they kept these people in limbo so long.
Israel should apply the findings of the Levi Commission and, in a true humanitarian gesture, permit those Arabs, dwelling in Yehuda and Shomron, who can prove that they will be loyal citizens, to apply for citizenship, like those living in the Golan and Eastern Jerusalem, which are annexed areas, over the pre-67 Armistice lines.
As far as granting voting rights and citizenship, there are examples of states that, like Switzerland, and probably others, have people living there for lifetimes and never have an opportunity to become citizens. Surely, people who had a requirement to live 2 years in a country to claim residency (the “Palestinian” “refugees”) are not entitled to citizenship, but may, as I stated previously, be given a chance at such, for humanitarian reasons.
And to all the folks who criticize Medinat Israel.
“If you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.”
I see that yytz gave a similar answer as mine (hadn’t read all the posts) and referenced Caroline Glick(I should have done so, as well.)
Charliehall – are you seriously trying to bring a raia from America? Ever heard of the “Trail of Tears” my friend? What happened to America’s benevolent bestowal of democratic rights when Native American land was “annexed” ?
And who said anything about needing to be a democracy? This is a discussion on “yeshiva world” not ynet so I’m assuming you are a halacha-adhering Jew. Could your remind me where in the Mishnah Torah it says we are required to establish a democracy in the land of Israel and provide full and equal rights to (often enemy) non-Jews? Because I seemed to have missed that halacha. Adaraba, the Rambam indicates the exact opposite. But I guess because we live in a modern world perhaps we shouldn’t constrict ourselves to running a country according to outdated medieval religious precepts right?
Jews aren’t allowed in Saudi Arabia and non-muslims are restricted to using their own roads. Is anyone refusing to do business with them? No – because they hold a huge amount of the world’s oil. If you haven’t noticed we hold just as much of a reserve of the world’s new technologies. The modern business world simply can’t compete without using technologies that come out of this country even if they wanted to. Why don’t take it easy posting from your comfortable democratic galus in the states and we will take care of things the Torah way and (less importantly) the middle-eastern way over here in our actual land.
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