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Recently at a sheva brachos, the following shailah came up:
There were 60 guests. 45 ate fleishigs, 15 stayed pareve.
At dessert, after scooping out ice cream into 60 bowls, all identical, it was discovered that one tub of ice cream being served was milchig. Now, there are fifty bowls of pareve ichy fake ice cream, and ten bowls of milchig ice cream. What’s the eitzah?
(Truth is, I put down the shailah very simply so the answer is obvious, but I happen to be learning a shtikkel basar bichalav so it was fun to hear azah shailah in real life.)
Let the ones who ate parve taste them to determine which is which.
DaasYochid is right of course. I’m just saying so because he signs ‘daas yochid’ while the reality is that what he is saying is pretty clear from the sugya (the rashba writes it explicitly in any case)
DaasYochid’s answer is viable according to the Shach. Alternatively, if one does not agree with the Shach, since there is no way of knowing which is which, it is a classic case of ????, and a fleishig person would be allowed to eat up to fifty of the bowls; maybe more.
That is assuming a bowl of ice cream is not a ??? ????, which is a very reasonable assumption.
Try dowsing.
Toi,
As soon as they taste one spoonful, if it tastes milchig, they have to stop.
I don’t think they’re even allowed, since it’s efshar l’varer.
I am assuming, of course, that they’re distinguishable in taste, especially as per the question, which assumed that parve ice cream is “ichy”.
I think part of the equation should be how many cups were possibly filled with milchig ice cream, no?
You can tell which is which.
Sam, even without tasting?
DY: No, but that doesn’t matter. We are Noheg not to allow T’imas Yisrael. Have a Pareve person taste them all.
Is it really Parush? You don’t know which one you are taking but they are all there.
Sam, yes, that was my idea as well.
We are Noheg not to allow T’imas Yisrael.
Who is “we”? I know some who do and some who do not.
Sam and Yit, are we talking about trusting the t’ima, or allowing t’ima of possible issur?
If the former, I’ll point out that we’re not talking about merely nosen ta’am , we’re talking about an ikkar ta’am.
If the latter, I’ll point out that yit is being his usual non-conformist self. 🙂
Toi, then this should have been in the “best pareve desserts” thread. 😉
It has been a while, but if recall correctly the issue of relying on t’ima is when dealing with a mixture.
Here there is no mixture, one doesn’t need to be especially talented or sensitive to tell the difference. Why should we not use the pareve people to test?
Toi
“okok to clarify, the ice cream is identical in appearance and taste. my bad.”
The plot thickens lol.
If you cant tell the diff in taste then you must wait 6 hours before serving it to any fleishig person. Thats what I would say.
Was the ice cream cholov yisroel? If so we can assume it is not really milchig anyway.
WIY: That’s for sure not right. Toi is correct. This is Parush MeiRuba and it should be Muttar for everyone to eat all of it. (Maybe we would be Machmir to only allow Fleishig people to have as much Pareve as we know was served; that’s a Machlokes.)
Sam2
Why should we be someich on heteirim like kol deparish when its a davar sheyeish lo matirim by waiting 6 hours to eat it?
its been a while since i learned the sugya, but if i remember correctly, you are making a wrong assumption by saying kal d’parish. if it was already served to each guest than it is kal d’parush, however, from your question it seems that the safek was realized when all sixty cups were still together (eg. on the serving tray). if so you are not allowed to take one from the mixture.
WIY: Interesting. Davar SheYeish Lo Matirim is a good point. I guess it depends if Kol D’parish is a Din in Bittul B’rov (which I think B’pashtus it is).
I would think that each scoop of ice cream would be the chatichas basar, and each tub a chanus. I don’t think it’s magus, or a ta’aroves; rather, parush as Toi said. DSL’M sounds correct, though.
I don’t think it’s magus, or a ta’aroves;
That was supposed to read: I don’t think it’s kavua, or a ta’aroves;
Let me repeat that I’m not holding in the sugya. I don’t understand the train of thought going on here. Mema nafshach, if you’re considering the safek, that each cup may have come from this tub or that tub, then its not “kal dparush” , its a case of “lakach min hakvius” which has a din of kvius. And if your safek is noled only now in the serving tray where you have 60 cups of ice cream and your mesupek which is milk which is pareve, then it has nothing to do with kvius or kal dparush, its a regular case of taaruvos where dinei bitul would get involved not kvius and parish. Am I wrong?
One more point, if you’re looking at each cup and mesupek which tub it came from, there is no rov at all (assuming there were two tubs, one milk and one pareve)
One more point, if you’re looking at each cup and mesupek which tub it came from, there is no rov at all (assuming there were two tubs, one milk and one pareve)
I think you’re right. It’s not like eser chanuyos.
The following q is coming from a complete basar b’cholov am ha’aretz (sadly, me): Doesn’t it matter that eating milchigs after fleishigs is (at least) not a issur d’oiraisa? Wouldn’t that affect the bitul question? Most of the comparisons seem to involve neveilos. No? Please enlighten me…
You’re no longer DaasYochid , you’re ” DaasShnayim”. 🙂
Doesn’t it matter that eating milchigs after fleishigs is (at least) not a issur d’oiraisa? Wouldn’t that affect the bitul question?
Yes, it’s d’rabbonon. Are you asking based on safek d’rabbanan l’kula?
Toi
beware the cleats
okok to clarify, the ice cream is identical in appearance and taste. my bad.
Posted 1 day ago #
DaasYochid
a singular mind
Toi, then this should have been in the “best pareve desserts” thread. 😉
This should go up as one of the best responses in the CR.
All of them are being eaten so it is actually a case of Shnei Shvilin. In that case we would have to rely on ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, which works only by a Derabanan. I don’t know if we consider the Bassar Vechalav variants (chicken, 6 hours, Chad Betrei) Kula’ble Derabanans.
The most puzzling thing about chicken is that we apply the Sakana of eating it with fish. If we would be eating it with milk, I don’t think it would cross anyone’s mind to bunch it together with meat in this regard.
By the way, ice cream doesn’thave a Zman Heter. It won’t be ice cream anymore. (Yeah, OK.)
No. I think that was addressed with the yesh lo matirin arguments before.
I’m asking (and I know I could be very wrong) is:
the concept of bittul clearly requires two distinct identities. The thing being botul and the thing it’s being botul to.
Are strawberry ice creams botul to raspberry ones? I think not, because there’s not distinct halachic identity between them, unlike neveila and shchuta.
Now here, there’s milchig and pareve with the only difference being that the milchig might cause external people to violate a minhag/drabanan.
Is this sufficient to cause a halachik identity suffucient to start discussing bitul?
I think its pashut theres nothing left to add. Its a davar sheyeish lo matirim theres no reason to rely on any heteirim for anything here.
I’m asking (and I know I could be very wrong) is:
the concept of bittul clearly requires two distinct identities. The thing being botul and the thing it’s being botul to.
Are strawberry ice creams botul to raspberry ones? I think not, because there’s not distinct halachic identity between them, unlike neveila and shchuta.
Ayin Ran Nedarim 52a.
From another total am haaretz on the taaruvous front (as yitaningut pointed out on another thread :-)) —
Why is there no ??? ????? ?????? (Is ?????? ?????? a difference? I seem to remember a ?? who says that you DONT say ?????…)
Also, you forgot to mention that it was after bentching, an hour after the meat was finished, and it took place in Holland.
Toi
A Rav would have a field day with you.
“Now, there are fifty bowls of pareve ichy fake ice cream, and ten bowls of milchig ice cream. What’s the eitzah?”
If it’s ichy it certainly shouldn’t take more than a tiny taste per bowl to set it straight…
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