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I submitted this letter a few weeks ago to the FJJ “Ask The Shadchan” section. I’d like to generate discussion on this topic because I feel like this idea actually has potential. I will post the letter here exactly as I submitted. Here it is:
Dear Mrs. Rose,
I am a single boy in shidduchim along with many other friends of mine who are also looking for their bashert. One of my close friends is currently set up to go out with a girl from out of town. My friend told me that they have two dates scheduled for the upcoming week. That got me thinking. For an “out of town” shidduch most people agree to set up two dates because if one side is traveling a long distance to meet the other then they should go out at least twice so they can get a clear picture if it’s for them or not. Now the question: Why can’t this same thought process be put in place when there is a “local” date? Through my experiences (going out and redting) I’ve often felt that one side gives a no after one date – saying “it’s not for me” or “I don’t see it.” Perhaps, had they agreed to two dates beforehand they would be more open minded to give the shidduch a chance as opposed to just saying no after one? Obviously if both sides both strongly agree (this would be communicated through the shadchan so it would be handled in respectable manner) not to continue then there would be no need to go out a second time. What do you think of this idea?
A single frustrated with “the process”
Stop shadchanim, parents, and friends from telling a girl that money is the most important thing. It’s sad that it’s such a factor. I mean why do so many woman choose money over a good heart? If a guy is trying his best and works hard and has such a good heart, why must he be alone simply because he doesn’t have a career? Aside for the fact that naturally women are attracted to money and love being spoiled( in general yes), the external influences such as those who are close to her corrupt her mind. What will happen when you have kids they say. What will be when your pregnant? Do you want to live on the street? Oh please you didn’t even get married and already raising things that aren’t even in anyone’s control.
I get it women who want money will always want that and will probably find it if they are pretty enough. But something about today’s mindset is very problematic. Yes we need money to survive, but if your doing your best and are a good guy, what else is left? Did we forget what emunah is? Is anything guaranteed for the better or worse? Can someone with a career not lose it? Can someone with a simple job not advance? Don’t woman also work nowadays? Why does it have to be that if they work they will only marry a man who makes either as much or more? Is it a competition? This is what’s wrong today the mindset.
I don’t know how it works in the Yeshivishe Velt, but in Lubavitch (which I’m more familiar with) two dates is almost always taken for granted, unless there was something seriously wrong with the first date. Perhaps this should become instituted in the Yeshivishe circles too.
Sechel: When did Lubavitch stop having beshows (or whatever the previous system was) and move to American-style dating?
Sechel, even in lubavitch there are issues. It’s the same everywhere. There are enough letters from individuals published on lubavitch sites to confirm check it out. Let’s not try to be better than thou here.
Why do you need to have a formal agreement in advance for two dates? If both parties agree that there may be some potential “match” they can simply agree to exchange phone numbers or texts to arrange a follow up. Otherwise, move on. The cost of a RT airfare from NYC to Cleveland is not the basis for pushing to people to go out a second time if the Chemistry was not there after the first. If there is doubt, BOTH need to agree. Its even more embarrassing to pressure a young couple to meet for a second date when it was clear after the first nothing will come of it.
I remember often a Shadchan would suggest an idea that I wasn’t that into to start with , to convince me the Shadchan would say what’s the big deal go out on a date and worst case you don’t go out again and I would think to myself “that’s never true , Shadchanim will always push a second date and one feels force” so this idea sounds nice but it might get some boys to say no to more shiduchim.
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I think Shadchanus money should start high but then after each bad suggestion that the Shadchan offers ( each date that didn’t result in an eventual engagement) the shadchanus hapuld go down by 10 or 20% thus incentivisimh Shadchanim to think before just randomly setting people up without thought.. I’m kind of kiddingPeople will make the choices they believe is best for them. Unless you are part of a chassidus there is no way to institute a community wide takana. Very few boys are interested in being forced to go out twice if they are sure after 1 date it’s not for them. It may even be halachikly problematic.
Improving your appearance, personality, learning/Parnassa capabilities will make you a more sought after marriage partner.“When did Lubavitch stop having beshows (or whatever the previous system was) and move to American-style dating?”
As far as I know, we never did Beshows, at least not since the 1940s. The process did used to be much shorter, and it was more common to get engaged in 3 or 4 dates. Now 8 – 9 dates is pretty standard.
“Sechel, even in lubavitch there are issues. It’s the same everywhere. There are enough letters from individuals published on lubavitch sites to confirm check it out. Let’s not try to be better than thou here.”
Why am I being attacked? Everyone has issues, I’m only pointing out that in some communities, common courtesy is to give 2 dates before dropping, and in my opinion it’s a great idea.
As someone who is dating I disagree. I think most dates I’ve done a second date and given a fair chance.
But I’ve been out with people who weren’t 100 percent and we weren’t lied to about.
I’ve been out with people who we mutually felt no potential.
I think unless he is crazy, or you mutually don’t see any potential, you spent a 3 hour date is silence, or hashkafically he’s completely off – there’s no reason to NOT do a second date.Why one two? Perhaps you should insist all dates go for at least three or four dates.
If one side feels that there is no potential, then it is unfair to the other side to go out on another date and keep them emotionally involved in the date. Be honest and say its not for me.
Why one two? Perhaps you should insist all dates go for at least three or four dates.
What you really want is that we should insist that all dates get married.
Takes girls a longg time to get ready for a date. No ones interested in spending all that time for a no shayches date
This idea is silly
forcing people to go out if one of them doesn’t think its a shidduch makes zero sense. (And if anything would undermine shiduchim since instead of that evening potentially spent on a possible shiduch, it is wasted on an impossible (ok unlikely) one. )Sechel pretends that they do this in Lubavitch circles, but admits “unless there was something seriously wrong with the first date.”
In other words, they DONT automatically go on a second date“Sechel pretends that they do this in Lubavitch circles, but admits “unless there was something seriously wrong with the first date.”
In other words, they DONT automatically go on a second date”A second date is taken for granted. 95% of first dates lead to a second, even if one party isn’t really interested in continuing. It’s viewed as basic mentchlichkeit.
If one of the parties is absolutely sure that this shidduch isn’t for them then forcing a second date is a giant waste of time for everyone involved. However, very often one side isn’t sure, or isn’t “feeling it” without being able to pinpoint a specific reason, I believe that a second date should be pushed.
As radical as it may sound, just leave these young men and women alone, stop establishing “rules” governing when, where, and how many times they must meet etc. If they are considered mature enough to marry, they can figure out these details on their own without the pressure from parents, shadchanim, expert baal ha’batim, and other “concerned” parties.
Has anyone done research on shidduchim to find out what kind of ideas we need?
@BLT35 we’ve have all been THERE. in a position of not wanting or invited to second date that might actually lead some where. What really you need to remember IS: a date who doesn’t want to be with you is davka not good for you!
^____^I am a bochur who has been trying to get married since my 21st birthday. I am almost 24 and still single. Unlike the rov of my chevre, I am a bechor in my family which means that I do not have the luxury of being set up by siblings’ in-laws.
Yet my engaged and married friends who have the option of being משדך by their married siblings’ in-laws are the ones whom the shadchanim take more seriously, while the בכורים are being left behind and forced to remain single longer!!
I’ve heard this from numerous Rebbeim that are dealing with Bachurim in shidduchim. When you come back from the 1st date there are 2 questions that need an answer. Was there chemistry (did the conversation flow) and were you comfortable with the way the girl looks. Does anyone think differently?
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