To Potch or Not to Potch

I cant understand why some people in this thread are arguing aganst the Shulchan Aruch. We dont do that. The Shulachn Aruch is halacha period.

I believe that saying potching teaches a kid to hit is total baloney. It is like saying fining somebody teaches them to steal money, or putting them in jail teaches them to kidnap.

I always argue with my wife about the merits of potching. She is opposed, and has a library of the new age books, many of them frum ones, about raising children with love, etc.

So when my kids get out of control, she comes running and asks me to do something. I tease her, why don’t you take out your library of books and look up what to do and how to handle this?

The bottom line (pardon the pun) is that these books are truly wonderful. The only minor problem is that they don’t work. The old fashioned way of teaching kids that you better behave right now or else, is the tried and true method.

In addition, there is nothing that annoys people more than a parent who doesn’t seem to discipline their kids when they are running wild and bothering others. If one is a guest in a home, and his kids get out of control, if the host doesn’t see the parent immediately taking control, the chance of being invited back is very slim. Even if the kid throws a tantrum, as long as the parents are firm with him, the host usually understands. However, when parents seem to be ignoring or wimping out or spoiling their child, it probably is the number one most annoying thing to others who happen to be around.

Sjs, so you know better than Tanach and Shulchan Aruch?

WOW!

Sjs, what religion do you practice? The one I do, uses SA as its code of law.

According to what maxwell posted, its ” the adult should hit the child with a small strap (Yorah Daya 245:10).” (emphasis mine)

Is that a poor translation? I don’t have the text in front of me.

Missme, perhaps my superior child rearing has my children behaving so well that I don’t need to spank them. BTW I love the attacks on my religious basis. Makes your argument so much clearer.

I agree with gavra.

“PY, hitting a toddler teaches them to hit.”

SJS, didn’t you write in a different post that you had trouble with your older son hitting the baby? Where did he learn that? Truth is, toddlers hit. They push, and pull hair (something that my son just started doing, and believe me, I don’t pull his hair!), and pinch other kids when they’re frustrated, angry, or not getting their way. That’s just what kids do.

I am not an advocate of potching, but I do agree that sometimes it really is necessary. My kids are all different, therefore they need different means of discipline. My son, who is about a year younger than yours, knows not to go in the street without holding my hand, but he has gotten a potch or two (not hard at all, just enough that he cries because he’s insulted, not because it hurts) because you simply can’t reason with a two-year-old who REALLY wants to cross the street. I give him a light potch on his (well-padded) bottom and then we go straight inside. That’s it. Thirty seconds later he’s happily playing. And I’ve never seen him hit another child.

It does bother me when I see kids being smacked for not-so-grievous behavior, but I believe that sometimes, like when there is a real danger, it is necessary. I do it calmly, no yelling, and then we don’t talk about it afterwards. And it seems to work just fine.

Maybe your son is unusually well-behaved that you’ve never had to resort to a small potch. If so, lucky you! But you never know what your other kids will be like.

I was potched once in my life. My husband was potched twice. We both remember these occurrences quite clearly. Are we resentful? No. Were all of our siblings potched? Nope. It all depends on the kid and the situation.

Giving a light smack, with no anger, is not violence in my book.

LAer, you are correct – I left out a vital word. Hitting a toddler teaches them that its ACCEPTABLE. Yes my son has hit the baby. Its absolutely a natural response when you don’t have verbal skills. We train ourselves to CONTROL certain responses and I am working to give my son the verbal skills and control through reasoning. He is much better. He does go to daycare and learns negative influences from other children. Right now, we are working on seeing others misbehave and not copying their behavior (specifically at the park and sliding head first down the slide).

Let me give a quick example of how toddlers learn. My son knows we don’t throw toys. This morning, I saw a toy and tossed it into the appropriate basket. I was far enough away from it, that it was a “throw.” One of the next things my son did was take a toy and toss it also. That is how toddlers learn – they imitate. He wasn’t being bad by any stretch of imagination, he was learning from me. Its why as a parent you need to be extra careful in what you say and do. Kids model behavior much faster than they listen to what you say.

A child needs a balance of positive and negative reinforcement, and a happy home life.

PY, I agree with that. But to me, that doesn’t include spanking.

That’s ok Wolf, I don’t expect an answer.

SJS, thanks for clarifying. However, I still don’t agree.

Toddlers think that a lot of things are acceptable because you do them. But they need to learn, as they get older, that there are many things that adults can do even though they cannot. Would you stop touching the stove because it’s unacceptable for your child? Would you not go into the street alone because it’s unacceptable for your child? I don’t think so. My son, who I believe is younger than yours, understands that there are things that Mommy is allowed to do but he is not. He will point to a sharp knife, for instance, and say “no-no” plus his name, then ask “Mommy?” Then I tell him that yes, it’s a no-no for him, but for Mommy it’s okay. And he accepts that. Why should potching be any different?

My nieces and nephews sometimes take to “disciplining” each other. My sister tells them, in no uncertain terms, that Mommy is the one that gives the punishments and that it is not their job to do so. Why is it that much harder for a child to understand that Mommy or Daddy can give a (small) potch when necessary, but that they can’t?

No one has been able to name a situation because there is no one-size-fits-all situation in which it is necessary. It all depends on your kid, his/her age, the action that requires discipline, how s/he has responded (or not responded) to other solutions, and your own capabilities of doing it right. Potching, like everything else, falls under “chanoch lanaar al pi darko” and you need to figure out what’s good for your kid and what’s not.

PY, that doesn’t need a spank, it needs a good time out. And a talk about respecting others property.

Usually spanking is used as a “quick fix” but I want my kids to understand that just like they wouldn’t want someone ruining their property, they shouldn’t ruin other peoples property.

That’s why I generally call spanking “lazy parenting” – its trying to take a shortcut without making your child understand.

SJS, suppose your child refuses to obey the time-out. You tell him to go into the corner for 5 minutes. He runs out right away. Also, how do you implement a time-out in somebody else’s house?

“Can you name a situation where spanking is necessary and there are no ways around it? So far, no one has been able to. “

SJS, yes we have. A small child runs into the street. That is a potch moment in my book. You cannot reason with a child 18 months old, or with an older toddler who doesn’t comprehend the concept of safety. My granddaughter DOES understand, and she has never been potched, B”H. She is not a perfect little angel ALL the time, but she can be reasoned with, and she knows that NOT SAFE means something that will cause a big booboo on her. We have taught her concepts that she understands well, but it helps that she is kinehora a mature child. Many bright children are still not so mature, and they do not necessarily obey. In a dangerous situation, potch first saying NO in a firm voice and ask questions later. They will remember that potch, believe me. And it will not scar their little psyches, I promis you. We are talking about a potch on the rear or hand, not a beating. Timeout only work with children who will obey the timeout rule. And yes, my little angel has had a few timeouts, but much fewer lately.

I admire your resolve to try to impart these rules with love and without resorting to corporal means. But sometimes it is the only thing that works, and a parent does not totally close off that unpleasant option if it can help. And you DO know when it is necessary.

PY, I don’t do traditional time outs. We go sit in the corner and talk about what happened and then talk about a solution. If he doesn’t want to sit in the corner he can sit on my lap. This works anywhere.

I also try to find the root cause. Is he bored? Tired? Hungry? Usually when we go out for shabbos meals, one of us plays with the kids after they’ve reached their time of “good” behavior. Kids can’t last that long.

Oomis, I know you gave a time where you use it, but its not necessarily needed. I question whether an 18 month old who doesn’t have the impulse control nor the proper understanding should be given the opportunity to run into the street. Its setting your child up for failure. I believe in age-appropriate expectations.

I wish for you that you never are faced with a need to potch for any reason

Amen!

BTW one reason these strangers can control kids seemingly better is kids are often afraid of strangers. Not necessarily the potch. I would probably deck a person who threatened my child. [And that women wasn’t disciplining, she was just talking]

Sjs I had a good laugh. You said you would sit with your child and talk about ruining other’s property.

Most children won’t sit so calmly and listen. Many children will run away. They are not scared and don’t have too much respect.

What would you do then?

Your son seems to be a very calm and obeying child. But MANY kids aren’t born like that. Many kids are born with a lot more energy, stubbornness and a nature for mischeif.

I didn’t say he is always calm and listening. We find a quiet corner and I sit with him. Or I’ll hold him in my lap. I talk until he is calm enough and ready to talk. If he is hysterical, I will often put him in an Ergo carrier and walk around with him until he calms down.

I do stern talking to my son and appropriate consequences. Consequences doesn’t mean a spank though.

Um… you put your 2.5-year-old in a baby carrier? How does that work for you? Either he’s really tiny or you’re really strong…

But you see, it sounds like your son is inherently more calm than many little boys. When my son is upset, holding him in place just gets him more upset, and I wouldn’t even think of confining him to a tight space (especially not a tight space on my own body, where he could wreak considerable havoc on me!) because that would just backfire. His time-outs are more of the screaming, flailing variety. And no, I would not potch him for run-of-the-mill offenses, but I do agree with smartcookie – most kids would not sit and listen nicely, especially younger-than-2 kids, because their attention spans are not made for that. Like oomis said, if there is a real danger present, sitting and talking to your kid will not help. A shout or a potch is much more likely to get his attention and will usually be more effective in the long run. Of course, this needs to be followed up by a talk about why running into the street, for example, is dangerous and why Mommy yelled at or potched you.

There is another point to think about. SJS’s approach which seeks to make all the rules understood to the child, is very noble. However, the implication is that if the child does not understand the rules, or does not agree with the rules, then he is free to conduct himself otherwise. In other words, the child and Mommy are on the same level of authority. This is precisely what may spoil a child.

In addition, there are many situations where Mommy simply cannot explain things at that moment. What is needed is immediate compliance. For example, Mommy is on a telephone interview about an important job, and the child wants to take all the cookies out of the jar. Mommy says no, and the child won’t listen or is threatening a tantrum. Is Mommy going to tell the prospective boss to hold on, and then proceed give a long lecture to the child on why too many calories is not good for health, and each cookie has about 25 calories, so it is not advisable to eat so many now?

The point of a potch is that when Mommy or Abba says NO, it means NO, right now, no negotiations, no discussion, no disobediance. Later on, you can spend as long as you want discussing nutrition with your child.

A potch or two early on hopefully will guaranteee that from then on, the child will understand the word no, and potches will not be necessary. A child must learn immediate obediance to authority.

Is Mommy going to tell the prospective boss to hold on, and then proceed give a long lecture to the child on why too many calories is not good for health, and each cookie has about 25 calories, so it is not advisable to eat so many now?

If I didn’t have time to discipline my kid the way I believed was best, I would just let him eat the cookies. You’ve decided that the job is more important than your kid’s emotional health. Why can’t it just be more important than his physical health (which will really not suffer very much from one cookie gorge. I have eaten 4 large custard donuts for breakfast and 4 slices of pizza for supper on the same day. Yesterday I ran 11 miles. Also which cookie has only 25 calories?)

I have eaten 4 large custard donuts for breakfast and 4 slices of pizza for supper on the same day. Yesterday I ran 11 miles.

Sure you’re not Fetteh Shmeel?

Oomis – your story reminded me of a similar one. Many years ago, my son (at the time, around 5 or 6 y/o) was getting the business from another (bigger, tougher) kid in the country. Fights, shoves, riding off with his bike and leaving it wherever, ect)

All pleas to the mother were promtly dealt with “talking” to her son (this was a no potch household, natch).

So, with little alternative, I crouched down so we were eyeball to eyeballand told this little angel,(in my best deadpan,icy cold voice) “if you don’t stop hassling my son, I’m going to drag you into the forrest, tie you to a tree, and let the bears eat you”

Being all of 6 or 7, he beleived me, so he stopped. Why? Becuae he saw that while he could run slipshod all over his parents (beacuse no rarely meant no) he could not be so sure with me (as he saw that my kids were kept in line), so best not to take chances with the bears.

I aslo once heard remarked that a potch is like first aid at the scene of an accident. Reasoning / explaining why something is wrong is like a consulation with a doctor. In an emergency, you admininster first aid. A kid wreaking havoc in a store or terrorizing a classmate is a code red 5 alarm blaze and calls for quick, decisive action.

popa for your edification and anyone else who may be inspired by your prowess, vigorous exercise will not cancel out very poor eating habits. kind of like aveiros and Mitzvohs.

remember jim fixx the one person who really began the jogging craze in america, who died at the age of 52 of a heart attack after his morning run one day.

you should live to be 120, at least.

A kid wreaking havoc in a store or terrorizing a classmate is a code red 5 alarm blaze and calls for quick, decisive action.

I would pick up the kid and carry him out of the store.

“Going out into the world without a good understanding of it defeats the whole purpose. It is like one sows without having plowed; the wind and birds will carry the seeds away, because they aren’t closed off and protected. So is he who merely reads Mussar like him who plants without a fence; pigs will eat and trample on everything. Some plant on stone. This is comparable to a heart of stone which cannot be penetrated unless it is struck until it breaks open. That’s why I wrote you to hit our children if they don’t obey you. “Train a lad in the way he ought to go” (Mishlei 22:6). This is an important principle of education.”

(Iggeres HaGr”a)

Now it may be claimed that times have changed and that the Torah has different interpretations for different times but that is an EXTREMELY slippery slope. And there are definitely contemporary, mainstream Gedolim who are of the opinion that it is valid today as it has always been. R’ Chaim Kanievsky for one. I personally heard him respond to a question posed to him – about educators in America who warn against ever hitting a child – with the one word response “Meshugaim”.