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what do you think?
A parent who doesn’t discipline his child with petch, hates him.
what do you think?
Never on a Wednesday, the fourth of August. (You did ask about today, no?)
The Wolf
In coaching we teach our client to take two deep breaths before we react or respond. I wonder how many parents would “potch” if they didn’t react immediately.
Its a good solution for parents who are lazy, impatient and dont know how to talk to kids.
Bottom or hand only. Face is out of the question. And coming from a parent only.
For those of you too young to remeber the 70s, petch was the norm in Brooklyn. Real bad deeds got the belt, the ruler or the tablespoon. Really REALLY bad deeds got the whack on the finger tips (palm up, fingers closed into a pyramid)
This was from parents and school alike. But today? School staff has no right to do any of these things. Even parents need to rethink how and when.
Oh, and now that I think of it, bad words got special treatment. Depending on the severity, it was either liquid soap in the mouth or black pepper on the tounge. As you can guess, I was a real chevrah-mahn 😉
I was walking on a street in lakewood when I saw two small boys run into the street-one father took his son and gave him a good potch while the other just ignored it-when it came to the next street the boy who got the potch waited for his father while the other ran into the gutter again.
And so? Do you contend that this means that potching is good? Bad? Doesn’t matter?
The Wolf
I think it is okay ONLY to prevent dangerous behavior in young children as Chayala just illustrated.
You’re refering to a case of a little kid. 99% of us would agree that in that instance a potch is necessary.
What I’m referring to is more of a grey area, like a 12 or 14 year old who acts up. There, parents need to think twice.
Beyond age 16, you’re really up a creek. In fact, chances are, petch at that point, petch may even be counter-productive.
But I still hold my ground on the “no-potch rule” when it comes to school staff, regardless of the age. Unless its in self-defense, there are no grounds for them to raise their hand. Ever.
Chayak
You’re comparing apples and oranges. The second parent didn’t discipline his child. Not hitting dpesn’t mean you ignore it.
My grandchildren know not to cross street without being hit.
use seichel and don’t potch without thinkng beforehand “what do i want to accomplish and how will this accomplish it?” and if it won’t have a long term good effect, then dont do it you’ll just be hurting your child.
also note that every child is different and will react to being hit differently.
in our crazy society kids rule their parents when i was a kid no q’s asked you were told you listen if not then you get a potch and then you listened now kids ignore their parents and they dont potch so the kids realize ignore and it will all be good potching is a good thing but not out of anger only out of love i once heard from a musser giant if a rebbe wants to potch wait a half hour after the deed then you can potch for chinuch out of love and you know its not from anger
Kids who get hit learn to hit, they go to school and hit other kids.
in our crazy society kids rule their parents when i was a kid no q’s asked you were told you listen if not then you get a potch and then you listened now kids ignore their parents and they dont potch so the kids realize ignore
Are you attempting to make the case that potched kids listen to their parents and that non-potched kids ignore their parents?
If so, I’d like to see some evidence of that.
The Wolf
I don’t condone violence towards chidlren, but a potch on the bottom, especially in the type scenario that was described about kids running into the street, is one of those where it may be necessary. A child can be taught not to run into the street, but ONCE HE HAS DONE SO, a potch is effective in teaching him how serious his actions were. Little kids cannot usually be reasoned with unless they are exceptionally mature. I know a 2 year old girl who kinehora will TELL you what she is not allowed to do because, “It’s not safe!” (and she doesn’t do those things). But she is a yotzais min haklal, and CAN be reasoned with, something you cannot do with most toddlers.
A potch in time saves nine!
A potch only until an appropriate age,
A potch for chutzpah or doing something unsafe.
Then an explaination why that potch you gave,
And with a kiss and hug, your relationship is safe.
I think, as oomis said, a potch can be used until a child can be reasoned with.
Btw, I think there is an halacha that one cannot hit a child over bar mitzvah.
I never think its ok to hit your child in any way shape or form. That is a form of child abuse.
With a child who can’t understand not to go run into the street, you don’t allow them a chance to run in the street. Either they stay in a stroller or get worn in a carrier or wear a harness. Its not a punishment, its an affect. If they can’t listen, they can’t be placed in a situation where you are setting them up to fail.
And soap in the mouth is DANGEROUS. I can’t imagine anyone subjecting thier poor child to soap.
wolf the case above is proof with the kids running into the street its not my theory its proven like oomis said you cant reason with kids they only understand a potch now i didnt say beat the living daylight out of him chas vshalom i just was making the point that kids understand potch and if you do it when they are young you wont have a problem later
wolf the case above is proof with the kids running into the street its not my theory its proven
One anecdotal example is proof enough for you that potched kids listen better than non-potched kids?! My God, whatever you do, please don’t become a medical researcher!!
The Wolf
SJS –
Let me make sure I understood you correctly;
You have (or at one point did have) kids that are between ages 2 and 7 and NEVER hit them? Not ever? Or are you saying that you feel its wrong, but when necessary, you will do so? (with restraint, and only when absolutly necessary, of course)
p.s. – I was talking about dishwashing liquid soap (not Easy Off, or St. Moritz). And no, I’m not scarred from my abusive childhood. Mostly because for every act of disipline, I was showered with 100x worth of acts of care and affection. In a much larger scope, Hashem finds it necessary to disipline us from time to time. Yet we still love Him with all our heart ans soul. Why? Because deep down, we know he loves us, because He proves it day after day, thru acts of kindness. PLus, (if we’re being honest with ourselfes) we know that the disipline was justified.
As long as the ratio (frequency and intensity)of love to discipline is 99.5% to .5%, it will not be a problem. I can’t predict the future, but past experience has shown this to be an effective way to raise kids.
LOL Wolf.
What did the potch teach him? That its ok to hit others to get them to do what you want. That is not a lesson I want my sons (or daughters if I have them) to ever learn.
If a child cannot walk safely in the street, they shouldn’t be walking in the street without being safely held in some manner.
Would you use this same advice for a husband to use on his wife?
SJSinNYC said:
“If a child cannot walk safely in the street, they shouldn’t be walking in the street without being safely held in some manner.”
You are not being realistic IMO. Try waiting 15-20 minutes for your kids bus and not letting you 2-3 year old walk around.
We were never “patched” as children, but for grevious offenses were sent to the “Trouble Room,” a small room in the basement painted black, with a black ceiling, and a single hanging light bulb, usually for 20 minutes or so with instructions to think about what we had done and how we could do better.
I think you cant make a rule whether hitting is OK or not everything depends of the situation and the child. Some children are more difficult and need to be disciplined more and constantly reminded that they need to behave and others are generally very obedient and the one or two times they misbehave maybe you should be easier on them because over hitting might make them rebellious etc. I think it all depends…you must use your common sense and parent instinct whether it’ll help or not.
“Would you use this same advice for a husband to use on his wife?”
yes.. if the wife was a 4 year old.
So SJS, what of it? Did you really, never hit your kid(s)?
My oldest is 2.5 and I have never hit him.
Discipline is NOT about “punishment” – its about teaching your children how to behave and giving them the skills to succeed. Age appropriately.
There is NEVER a reason to strike a child.
sjsin? harness? arent we talking about kids? harness your dog and be mechanach your kid
Oh. So you’ev got one toddler, and possibly an infant. Cool!
Let’s revisit this conversation whaen you’re dealing with a 5 and 7 year old.
Don’t believe me? Lets see how the other CR memebres weigh in.
BP Totty, I don’t plan to spank them then either. I will definitely find ways to teach them and discipline them, but not at the risk of abusing them.
What happens when they hit their younger siblings? Why is it ok for you to hit them, but not for them to hit you?
My sister doesn’t hit her kids either and they are 3, 6 and 8.
Shlomoe, I don’t personally use a harness for my son because he listens. I would prefer to harness my child to help ensure their safety while giving them freedom to explore than to hit them.
What happens when they hit their younger siblings? Why is it ok for you to hit them, but not for them to hit you?
Emes is Emes
a parent child relationship is not the same as a child-child relationship
parent and children have different responsibilities
different priveleges
different roles
dont feed them untruths
explain to them why.
Mod-80, its true each relationship is different. But what it does teach them is that whoever is “in charge” can hit those below him. So when they take care of their siblings, they are the authority figure. Or when a teacher hits them its ok because the teacher is the authority figure. It doesn’t actually teach the kids how to behave properly.
youre right
in todays upside down, mixed up golus where there is no clear right or wrong, children can easily become confused.
SJS, I have children with completely different character traits. Some I’ve only potched once or twice, and some got quite a few petch from me.
When I see kids talking chutzpadig to their parents, it disgusts me. I want to go over and give a few ztezes on the rears of these kids AND their parents.
I think kids do clearly know what authority is, if the parent acts with authority in all situations.
A lot of kids have lost that respect to their parents because the parents are afraid of them.
Hitting out of anger and abuse, or without using seichel, can cause kids to hit as well.
SJSinNYC said:
BP Totty, I don’t plan to spank them then either. I will definitely find ways to teach them and discipline them, but not at the risk of abusing them.
And you are willing to take risks in other areas that were discussed in other threads.
Mod-80, I want my kids to respect my authority, not fear my authority. I was raised with the same principle.
Chutzpah doesn’t need a spank. Its often the kids who get spanked the most who shouldn’t be.
I’ve heard many people who say “Oh I wait to calm down until I spank” which means that if the child is old enough to understand delayed consequences, there is no reason to spank as there are many other forms of discipline that will work. And if you wait but they can’t understand delayed discipline, then there is surely no reason to spank. If you spank right away, its often more a temper tantrum on the parents part than anything else.
Says who, if you are going to quote me, please indicate that you added the quotation marks for your own emphasis.
fixed
Each parent decides what risks to take with their children. I am not sure what you are referencing, so please come out and say it.
Thanks Mod.
SJSinNYC
TV
Says who, my son watches “The Mickey Mouse Clubhouse” and I challenge you to find me one thing that is wrong with it.
Chayala, you don’t have to strike your child to discipline them. If you withold discipline you are harming your child.
SJSinNYC
I won’t cahllenge you on this, your son is 2.5 years old. When he’ll be a little older he won’t be interested in watching “The Mickey Mouse Clubhouse”
Why aren’t you taking the word “shivto” at face value?
I beleive as long you discipline your child thats fine. It doesn’t necessarily have to be through hitting. If you do it its fine (as long as you do it the right way) and if you don’t do it thats also fine as long as they are being disciplined. Do what works for you- there is no one way.
In this Dor of Chutzpa before Moshiach, with all of the “children at risk”, one must make sure that Torah and Yiddishkeit are “sweet”.
That is not to say that there is no time that would justify hitting a child, but it also must be done with sweetness, and only after deliberation, warning, and never in anger (and making sure your child knows it is not in anger). It should as a means for the lesson, no as an end as a punishment.
Usually, the lesson can be tought better using “natural consequences”. Of course, danger may force the need to use physical means (e.g. grabbing a hand hard to stop a child from running into the street). It may even hurt, but it is better then the other, C”V.
Why aren’t you taking the word “shivto” at face value?
Do you actually use a stick?
gavra_at_work said:
“Do you actually use a stick?”
good point
Chosaych Shivto may not mean sparing the actual rod. The shevatim were marked by a degel on a stick that went before each tribe. Maybe this refers to the leadership before each shevet, and maybe it means, that a parent who withholds proper PARENTING/leadership when his child does wrong, is a parent who does not love his child enough to correct him.
OK I am stretching a bit, but I like my interpretation.
Says who, if I don’t approve of anything for my son to watch, he won’t watch. Its that simple.
I can’t think of a single situation that cannot be dealt with and that needs a spank. Can someone name me one?
SJS I generally agree that spanking is not the most effective method, but I also firmly believe that spanking is the only way to get a child too young to understand better, that there are painful negative consequences to doing something dangerous. I also believe that after the spanking, which should NOT be a beating), a parent should hold the child lovingly and then say he or she loves the child and wants him/her to be a mitzvah boy/girl, and that it made him/her very very sad to have to give a potch. The only time I had to give my son a potch was when he was around 2 and he tried to climb onto the stove. He didn’t listen when I told him to stop, and though the stove was cold at the time, this was unacceptable. He got one potch and a loud exclamation from me of “HOT!!!!!! DON’T TOUCH!!!” and NEVER went near the stove again until he was old enough to use it safely with supervision. And yes, he cried for a minute and then wanted me to hold him. Which I did.
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