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i know i am not as experienced as most in the coffee room, and those who “made up the shidduch process”, but one solution came to my head the other day and i wanted to know what you thought of it. What if it were the girls who would be able to say yes to the boy, before the boy would be able to. It would be an interesting experiment to see if the problem is that there are more girls than boys, or if the boys just have the upper hand because they get to initiate the process. let me know what you think….
Go for it.
Just curious though: how do you define “the shidduch crisis”?
Hazal observed that women have an innate desire/urge to want to be married. I had a situation in which the girl I was seeing did make me fell pressured before I was ready to seriously commit (many rabbonim will tell people to date 6 months or even a year before deciding to marry or move on, depending on the individual). Kiddushin 7a even says regarding women and marriage, Tav le metav tan du me le metav armeilu. Considering this, I’d be interested to see how such an experiment would turn out.
Frumgirl93,
If you define the problem as too many girls not getting married, as opposed to boys, then you’re pointing at an inequality in the numbers of girls and boys in the shidduch parsha. Changing dating habits would hardly help.
If you were to define the problem as girls seldom being “redt” shidduchim, this might help. That’s a very narrow definition of the problem, though.
There are more girls in the parsha than boys. If the numbers were even, there would be the same amount of boys unmarried as girls.
I just don’t think it’s that simple that if there were more boys in the world every girl would be matched up with a boy.
I agree; as it is, with more girls than boys, not all boys are married. But more would.
My suggestion is to see what the underlying problem of this crisis is
We already know. It’s not speculation.
Someone should write a book titled “The Shidduch crisis, a work of fantasy and fiction.”
frumgirl93: If everyone actually had a different image of the “top” guy/girl, the shidduch crisis would be a long way toward being solved, IMO.
Actually, that’s a universal issue, granted, but I think that an issue is that starting out, everyone’s looking for the SAME guy/girl. I look at my mom’s spreadsheets of bare-bones info and EVERYONE LOOKS THE SAME because that’s what everyone wants to see. My mom’s biggest saying (paraphrased a LOT) is that you don’t get a different image of who’s “top” until you meet your spouse. And your spouse is “top.”
It could just be that the profile of the “top” guy/girl is just so sparse that 95% of people can actually fall under it with a bit of cutting and pasting and editing, but if so, maybe that needs to change as well. Or maybe people just edit too much in order to become the “top” when that’s really not them.
Please, Hashem, let all this be fixed when I’m twenty…
WIY, you, squeak, and ubiquitin could co-author.;)
frumgirl
You sure you didn’t mean to respond to writersoul?
DY
The problem is the book wont sell, since once NASI admitted in the yated’s pages that the entire “theory” is based on not much more than hunches and guesswork, pretty much everybody I know that once was into the theory started having doubts.
Then when it is pointed out that “If you were to define the problem as girls seldom being “redt” shidduchim, this might help. That’s a very narrow definition of the problem, though.” (Which btw is how you defined it during our last discussion on this topic) and without dates girls cant get married, the rest, everybody I know gives up on the “theory”
Thus writing a book for the few diehards who adhere to this “theory” blindly against all logic to the contrary, is a fruitless endeavor
I certainly don’t think the shidduch crisis is a work of fiction. Characterizing the source of the problem as one that could only occur in a community of bacteria is, though. The “theory” is far too simplistic and utterly fails to take into account anything other than a single variable. An idea that excludes every complexity and any alternate inputs can only be welcomed by the simple minded.
the entire “theory” is based on not much more than hunches and guesswork
Be fair. That’s not what they said.
Which btw is how you defined it during our last discussion on this topic
You’re getting me confused with you. You claimed that’s the cause of the problem; I said (and still do) that it’s an effect.
The “theory” is far too simplistic and utterly fails to take into account anything other than a single variable.
It really doesn’t; it merely assumes that there us one factor, which if not dealt with, will continue to cause an insurmountable disparity.
And watch who you call simpleminded. Some of the greatest talmidei chachomim of the generation, a couple of whom I spoke to personally about it, agree with the theory.
There really is no shidduch crisis we are experiencing a huge lack of emunah gone public crisis. people talk stupidity about a boy doing “hishtadlus” so a girl can get married or more boys then girls even though there are older single boys!! I will repeat that in case you missed it but it is true that there are older single boys! also in my not so humble opinion the cause of the “shidduch crisis” and any other jewish crisis is the churban. May we be zoche to see the beis hamikdash rebuilt speedily and in our days.
Just to add to the fray I happen to know a lot of guys 25-30 who are still single so “if there is a crisis” it’s equal on both sides except that the girls tend to over dramatize things so everyone is worried about the poor girls who nebach are in their low 20’a and not married.
Now what I don’t understand is that Nasi and some other unintelligent groups want boys to look away an marry a girl older then them yet I know many boys in the 25-30 range who get NOs from the mothers because the boy is too old even though the girl already hit 20. So what on earth is going on?!
What’s going on is you have a lot of crazy parents doing everything they can in their power to get the most perfect guy or girl in the universe for their child who is quite far from perfect and they just keep running around in circles getting nowhere because they aren’t trying to actually find a shidduch that would be a good match for their child. I know of people that have girls who nebach date maybe once a year because nobody is good enough for mommy or totty. It’s ridiculous. How many of these mothers tell their daughter the truth that the reason they can’t get a date is because they said no to over 30 good shidduchim that weren’t good enough for the most foolish reasons? If you asked me (and I base my opinion on conversations with some shachanim who are not big name but try hard to get people married) the parents are wrecking things for their children while thinking that they have their best interests at heart.
The solution?
Enough said.
DY
Early in the last discussion on the subject you guoted a lengthy article by an Ariel Halpert, he defined the crises as “At the same time, many single women struggle with short lists and relatively infrequent dating.” At the time you agreed (or pretended too).
You can now call this angle a “narrow definition” That does not make it less true, and there is absolutely no way to solve the next step (marriage) while skipping the first (dating.
No chidushim here, we discussed this at length last time.
Just because Roshei Yeshiva support it doent mean they agree with it. Ones supporting Rosh yeshiva told me “of course it is nonsense and only simplistic people would think otherwise” He went on to say that NAsi would only help obviously people shouldne be caught up on age (or any of seeral other silly hangus) If this will reomve an obstacle form some girls getting dates then great! The quoted part is an exact quote rest is paraphrasing)
i havent read other peoples posts so i dont know if i am repeating something already mentioned but im gonna mention it anyway. frumgirl, i dont want to come across harsh, i am totally on your side here and i will explain why……your idea is great and kol hakavod for putting it out there….. but…. unfortionatly your system will never fly. like you, back when i was in shidduchim i was out to try to change the system and give girls more of an “upper hand” to help out with the so called “shidduch crisis”. i wrote a letter to yeshiva world editor which was posted march 4, 2008 before the coffee room days (under my old screen name unopinion8ed). my idea was called “shidduch exchange” if your interested in reading it. it also got printed in the country yossi, yated, and hamodia. i received so much criticim both on ywn and through email from lots of people, mostly from the boys themselves. i wanted so badly for my system to get implented. i was on the phone and at my computer for countless hours trying to reach out to rabbonim, shadchanim, and askanim for help. unfortionately the boys will always have the upper hand when it comes to shidduchim. although some shadchonim agreed to work with my idea, shadchanim as a whole will never do it your way and for good reason too. becuase girls are too senstive and emotionally invested in a shidduch even before anything happens. imagine you hear about your dream boy, wonderful things, everything you wanted and more. all the references check out etc etc… you call the shadchan back with an eager yes only to find out in a few days hes not maskim! do you know how many times your name has been sugggested to a boy only for him to say no and his name never once came across your way? how lucky you are not to know!!! like i said girls would not be able to handle all the initial rejections because they are too sensitive and too emotionally involved in a person they never met. boys are not. and that is why this system is fine the way it is. i wrote that letter when i was 23. i got married when i was 27. it wasnt easy. nothing about shidduchim is easy. but i came to accept that no matter how messed up this system is, theres a reason it works and everyone still gets married at their destined time.
i still agree with you 100 percent. i really mean that with a full heart becuase i want things to change too! but as a whole girls are more sensitive beings and you just cant change their essence. unless you are specificly talking about older singles and giving them names first. when you get older you start becoming more immune and learn to be able to keep your spirits up. but the younger ones are still too emotionally immature to handle all the rejections. the problem still tho is that the girls will never be the ones in charge. rabonim dont want it that way and shadchanim follow the rabonim. when you start letting girls control things its gonnna now turn the tables making the girls the picky ones leaving the boys left out for many months sometimes even an entire year without a single date. its happened to me and its happened to my friends. tho not spoken about publicly, im pretty sure the underlying reason boys get suggested the girls first is because the rabonim want them to get married as quick as possible so they can channel their taivos in the proper direction. you take that potential away when you give the girls the upper hand. that leads to the very strong possibility that there will be a serious spritual yeridah in the really good boys that are out there if we start changing the system. like i said before there is a reason things are this way and tho not ideal, it still works.
TTDWR, I agree with you 100% (specifically your first post).
Ubi, that wasn’t a definition. You harped on that sentence. I didn’t.
I would greatly appreciate if you didn’t misrepresent my opinion. Thanks.
DY
Feel free to change your mind, when you relaize your position is untenable but please dont accuse me of doing somehting wrong.
Here is the EXACT introductory quote from the article YOU cited “It is the best of times and the worst of times in the world of shidduch dating. Anecdotal evidence suggests that most single men in the various circles of Orthodox Jewry today have long lists of potential shidduchim and continuous dating opportunities. At the same time, many single women struggle with short lists and relatively infrequent dating. This imbalance represents a looming tragedy within the community as ever-increasing numbers of women are marrying later in life or not getting married at all. But what’s behind it?”
This was his indtroductory comment to a peice on the “shidduch crises” This is how he identified the crises. I do not recall you ever disagreeing with the very identification of the crises in the article YOU yourself cited in support of your position. (at least not until much later,)
It may not be how you defne the crises (at least not anymore), but it clearly is how Halpert defines it.
No, it’s not how he defines it. It’s how he dramatizes it.
Here’s where YOU called it the “money quote”:
Here’s where I downplayed it:
Feel free to disagree with me, but not to misrepresent what I hold.
“It really doesn’t; it merely assumes that there us one factor, which if not dealt with, will continue to cause an insurmountable disparity.”
See this is a perfect examle of the simple mindedness I was talking about. There are probably any number of factors that would cause insurmountable disparity – if viewed in isolation. But the different factors interact with and mitigate each other. If you want to be an oiber chochom and get so tchnical that you truly believe the shidduch world IS an island, you are going to miss some pretty relevant data.
And hiding behind the skirts of talmidei chachomim is a pretty lame defense, IMHO, which has grown exceedingly tiring.
It’s mostly an island; enough that the numbers issue needs to be a starting point.
I’ve been arguing my position on its own merits, not hiding behind anyone. If you don’t want to agree, fine. Just realize, that by calling my opinion, which is shared by gedolim, one which can only be held by the simpleminded, you are calling not only me, but them too, simpleminded.
Maybe if all girls weren’t so crazy, more of them would be married. Nine out of ten single men agree: Girls be cray.
DY
Im sorry I didn’t recall that. I just assumed you agreed with articles you cited. Please accept my apologies.
As for Gedolim, one of the signers told me “of course it is nonsense and only simplistic people would think otherwise” He went on to explain that if signing it would help some of those “simplistic” (his word) people who buy into the “age gap” get over their hangup about age then what is the harm
(He completly disagreed with my concern of pushing immature boys to get married).
MY point being that just because they sign it doesnt mean they buy it.
After all why would they, unless you think they are “simplistic”
Curiosity,
Someone’s not influenced by Ebonic, urban culture at all, jk.
Have an easy fast.
Accepted.
I just assumed you agreed with articles you cited.
I do. I just don’t think he was defining it, only dramatizing it by highlighting an obvious and disturbing effect if it.
one of the signers
I think if he disagreed, he shouldn’t gave signed, and your one exception doesn’t indicate to me that the rest of the signatories were similarly disingenuous.
As I mentioned, I’ve spoken to a couple of big talmidei chachomim (neither of whom signed) and they definitely agreed to the theory. That’s neither here nor there, because the theory makes sense either way.
DY
Im confused calling gedolim simpleminded is not ok but disingenious is?
I dont get you reference to the two talmidie chachamim. Do they have a better grasp on demographics than most? On human psyche? What expertise do they bring to the table?
And even if they did how is this anything more than an appeal to authority?
I didn’t call any gedolim disingenuous. I’m skeptical that a gadol would sign on something which he considered untrue. Even if the person you spoke to was a gadol, and even if he did tell you it was nonsense, maybe he didn’t really think so, but felt there was no harm in telling that to you.
I wasn’t appealing to authority; read my comment in context.
I have news for you though. We Jews believe in appeal to authority.
DY
“I think if he disagreed, he shouldn’t gave signed, and your one exception doesn’t indicate to me that the rest of the signatories were similarly disingenuous”
I am sorry but you did in fact call the R”Y of one of the biggest yeshivas in america “disingeneous” you only denied that the others were “similarly disingenous”
As to appeal to authority, Unless you mean The Ribono shel olam you have the wrong religion, every gadol in the world could support the “age gap,” they dont as ive pointed out, it wouldnt make it any more true. And certainly random “talmidei chachamim” agreeing with it wont make it true.
My point in bringing up the anecdote with my R”Y was not just to stress his opinion but the general metzes, he didnt just say HE thought it was silly, but that ANYONE who bought it was “simple minded” He assumed (or Knows) that the other signatories dont buy it either, as I dont think he wouldve called the all “simpleminded”
(This is assumption on my part since I didnt ask him specificly what he thought his colleague’s opinion on this silliness was)
I am sorry but you did in fact call the R”Y of one of the biggest yeshivas in america “disingeneous”
I’m not allowed al pi din to believe your story.
And not every RY is a gadol (some signatories are).
If you think we don’t value the opinion of talmidei chachomim, I guess we don’t practice the same religion.
DY: If Talmidei Chachomim opine on a financial issue (i.e. Euros are a safer investment than Shekels) is there something wrong with publicly disagreeing with them? If not, how then is it any different than disagreeing with them if they opine on a mathematical/demographics issue?
DY
how did you get “not value their opinion” from what I said?
I asked do they (the two that you claim agre with the age gap “theory” understand demographics better than most? human psyche? what is it that gives them a bar hachi on the age gap theory more than me?
“Even if the person you spoke to was a gadol, and even if he did tell you it was nonsense, maybe he didn’t really think so, but felt there was no harm in telling that to you.”
Exactly how I interpreted your anecdote, DY. As in, wheres the harm in letting this simple minded kid believe he knows the answer to life the universe and everything.
Squeak, one of them actually told it to me. But nice try.
Ubi,
how did you get “not value their opinion” from what I said? your use of the term “appeal to authority”, when I never said or implied that my position was absolutely proven by talmidei chachomim agreeing with it, implied that you didn’t value it. It was rhetorical; I knew that you (again) misunderstood me.
what is it that gives them a bar hachi on the age gap theory more than me?
All of the above. They’re smarter and more logical than you.
I think the best solution to the shidduch crisis would be to allow singles to meet in a natural environment instead of having a system with such ridiculous standards and rules. How about letting people meet at weddings? Or maybe arrange singles events.
It’s way more simpler than the shidduch system. You meet someone, you like them, you go out on a date. It saves, time, stress and is more effective.
Mayan1, there are many who do this already. Their marriage rate is not higher than those who exclusively meet through a shadchan (it’s probably lower), so there’s no reason to think it would help.
In fact, it’s interesting to observe that the more a group is restrictive in its “dating” process, the higher the marriage rate seems to be, moving up successively from secular to MO to yeshivish to chassidish.
This in no way proves cause and effect, but it certainly puts some doubt into any theory which proposes loosening restrictions as a means of increasing marriages.
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