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Tonight, I davened maariv standing nowhere near a siddur. And without checking first to make sure I could say al hanissim. I could.
Yeah, but you knew you can whip out your BB and go to iDaven.
Yeah but half the time instead of concentrating on what you were saying you were thinking, “I can do this, I can do this!”
I know, because I did it too.
Yeah, but you knew that if you messed it up or forgot it you were still Yotzei Shmoneh Esrei. I was less brave but more stupid. I went over it to myself (OC Siman 89, by the way, IIRC), made a mistake, still recognized that I knew it, and said it without a Siddur nearby anyway.
Aren’t you supposed to daven WITH a siddur? that’s what we always learned.
Yeah, doesn’t the mishna berurah say the first time you say al hanisim you should say it looking inside a siddur??
ooooh, popa, I see you like to live on the edge. That story gives me shivers. How could you???
Well…I can one up you. I drink milk past the expiry date. How’s that?
PBA: You hold like Rav Schachter?
Popa, I believe the halacha is that you are supposed to use a siddur/machzor/text for something that you did not say in the last 30 days. That is why we use a machzor for kiddush on yom tov – for sure the first night. And that is why the first time you say al hanisim should also be with a siddur.
PBA: It’s the Siman I quoted earlier. I think it’s 89 but I could be off.
It’s 100 with the Nosei Keilim there.
Popa_bar_abba: Gonna be dan l’kaf zechus and say that just like the speeches of presidents have modernized from paper to teleprompter, i’m gonna go out on a limb and say that you did too!
is it a sort of new “cool” thing to daven without a siddur? I have never heard of that. Maybe its like being cool and showing off?
Some people concentrate better with their eyes closed.
Hi DassYochid.
I am no expert, and I may be wrong, but I would think the concentration may be more on remembering the words than concentrating on the feeling and thoughts behind them. How can one really do all three successfully (remembering correct words, corresponding thoughts, and increasing intensity of feeling)?
It seems in all cases, and I may be wrong, of making brachos, I have always read it is better to read them even if one knows them inside and out. I have never read where it is preferable to eventually recite by memory.
Is it a merit to strive to daven without a siddur?
Popa- I just did it. It’s overrated.
BTG: merit to daven w/o siddur?
The thing is to do what it takes to daven like your standing in front of The One and Only Hashem. I believe halacha advises eyes closed or down and siddur as a second alternative if the words won’t come otherwise.
Is it a merit to strive to daven without a siddur?
Not that I know of. Everyone should do what works best for them.
Popa- Sorry, I didn’t realize it didn’t count. (I still think it’s overrated)
Popa: I did it too. Do you remember whether you said v’achar kein or v’achrei chein?
always runs with scissors fast: No, it’s a halacha brought in RaMBa”M and shulchan aruch. RaMBaM recommends looking over the special prayers before yomtov so you can say them. The mechaber, writing after printing gives looking at a siddur as a second option in general.
I did similar to popa. the guy next to me had a siddur but what could i do? thats where he was.
Anyhow, today during supper i told someone the “forgetting al hanissim harachaman” so he wouldnt have to look it up in a bencher, then just for kicks also said the “forgetting rtzei bracha” so you might think i’m just so good at forgetting things so I added the birchas zimun for shave brachos (something I’ve never said for real.
“And without checking first to make sure I could say al hanissim. I could.”
Impressive. What about vi’al haporkun?
Itche: Don’t you “V’achar Kein” as opposed to “V’achar Kach”? It has to be a Kaf to start the word.
PBA: You have Shabbos Pesukei D’zimra down? I still need a Siddur for that sometimes. And what about B’rich Shmeh? What about Rosh Hashanah Mussaf? Do you use a Siddur for that (I would be duly impressed if you know that one by heart)? Also, if you said V’yiten Lecha I guarantee you that you would pull out a Siddur every Motzai Shabbos (what about Kiddush Levana, by the way).
Interesting, V’al Hanisim you have no problem saying by heart, although you do not say it from year to year.
However Tachnun which is said twice each week you take a siddur.
I live about a 16 minute walk from the place I daven at Shabbos morning. I’ve found that if I walk out the door with Asher nasan lasechvi vina, I get to the shul at Az Yashir. If I’m late, I will sometimes skip the Halleluka halleu es Shem Hashem (too confusing with Hallel Hagadol), then Hallel hagadol (always get thrown off with 26 times ki l’olam chasdo) and Ranenu Tzadikim (too interchangable with Yehi ch’vod). (Can you tell that I daven Ashkenaz?) The rest goes smooth without any trouble. With proper concentration I sometimes can do those as well. I make up the missing parts when I have a siddur, right before Nishmas, and all is well.
Just a random story. A while back my brother was davening for the amud on shabbos morning and managed to get up to ashrei without anybody noticing he was davening weekday psukei dzimra.
Popa: You know where to find me. I challenge you!! (I have done this myself to others and gotten ‘the look’! Not very often, though. My far too large ego does not allow me to tolerate listening to very many others.)
Onegoal: Very few people pay attention to Shabbos morning pesukei dezimra. Ther are many places where there is not even a shatz up there at all. If davening starts at, let’s say 8:00, that just means that someone goes up at 8:30 and says Shochein Ad.
midwesterner- I haer you, but at least one person in the entire shul (which only has about 11 congregants) should notice.
PBA: Any Ba’al Korei who makes a correctable mistake during Channukah Leining deserves it anyway, unless you’re just talking in general and that didn’t happen today.
popa- This shabbos is definitely not a out shabbos, more like an in shabbos. (not really but it’s one of the highlights of the year so everyone stays)
My brother (who is there) told me the two highlights of the year are chanukah and purim. Why? I don’t know. It’s so good in fact that my last shabbos here he is staying there.
My place likes to stay in SHabbos Chanuka. Chanuka is a celebration of conquering the yavanim who were anti limud Hatorah and listening to chazal. Kisvu lachem al Keren hashor etc and all the rest. We have a big melave malka, and bnai Torah from around the cournty who have an off Shabbos come to our event. Guest speaker is scheduled to be the rosh kollel of the newest kollel in the neighborhood, RYR of KOT.
And I never get an off Shabbos anyway. Even if the guys would be away, I’d still be working. Refer to my previous comment about my intolerance of most other baalei kriah. (Although I’d be curious to hear what The Wolf sounds like.)
TO poppa
I have seen this many times and have been on both sides of it myself at times. I don’t know where the hate comes in.
Haven’t seen that and I am shocked.
OK.
sorry if i wasnt clear.
again, I have seen the oleh correct the baal koreh many times.
I myself have been in both position. (served as corrector or correctee).
I haven’t seen any hate caused by this event. I am shocked that you have and think it normal. I have seen annoyance, especially if the corrector is wrong (or the baal koreh thinks he is wrong).
but hate?!
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