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goody, you went? if yes how was it?
I hope mbd NEVER out-grows concerts or anything in the musical world (not that I ever attend, but it’s nice to see him still around here & there…)
THAT WAS THE BEST CONCERT EVER!!!
and believe it or not..i got uplifted!!!
had so much fun!!!
noitallmr: yup shloimy gertner-your local guy is a known name in the USA!!!!
Shloimy Gertner wasnt even there!!wats the big deal?
MBD was AMAZING!!!!
he was a real surprise!!!i was not expecting him!!
Lipa was rly good he rly didnt act crazy last nite. He was more or less normal.
Did Moshe Kiss end up playing?
believer: noitallmr from the U.K. was just askin earlier if we knew Shloimy Gertner!!! good to hear it was fun!!!!
in photo #8-who are these guys???? did they sing????
moish: find areivim in a photo!!! hee hee!!!
i’m having a blast lookin at all thse photos & saying which cr members people in the photos are!!!!
asdfghjkl, i didn’t see any bearded red heads. thin. rimless glasses.
anyway, i already know what he looks like, so who cares?
moish: i like pix 50 or so seemed like him!!! ok!!!
no no no no no NO! when i say red, i mean RED!!!!!!
Jothar, it was signed by many Gedolei Yisroel Shlita last year. Doesn’t matter who distributed it.
Yes it does, Joseph. Does it really represent their opinion, or does it represent the opinion of the askan who forced it on them? That’s why you need a rebbe. Kol Korehs are worthless.
furthermore, last year’s kol koreh does not apply for this year. You keep avoiding the question, but it’s a big one- why did they not sign it again? The obvious implication is thet the Jewish Star article is correct- they decided on second thought that banning it is counterproductive.
Jothar, I hope you don’t look at Gedolei Yisroel Shlita, especially so many of them together, c’v as bumbling fools who can be “forced” or fooled. The single Godol’s foresight is better than your hindsight; al achas kama v’kama the collective Gedolim’s foresight about what they put their signature to…
jothar: different year, different circumstances. last year there was a lot of letzanus in the ads preceding the event, and what was planned for the event. This year the producers did away with such letzanus, so it didn’t merit another ban. Have some trust that the Rabbonim know (better than you or I) what they do before they do it. No one can force them and I don’t think you think these great sages can be hoodwinked. Give them more credit than that. They deserve it a lot more than you or I.
Joseph, no less an authority than Rabbi Fuerst got up and publicly declared that Rav Elyashiv was fooled on the metzius of Indian hair sheitels. That is why one needs a rav, this is why one needs an actual kesher with gedolim, and that is why one doesn’t pasken based on askan-produced kol korehs. The Yated had an article about askanim and gabbaim manipulating gedolim recently. I trust gedolim. I don’t trust askanim. Kol korehs are done by askanim, not gedolim. Many times, the lashon of the kol koreh is changed from the lashon that was shown the gadol. That is why I have a Rav, and that is why I keep up my kesharim with my previous Rabbeim- to know when something is emes or sheker. I follow Daas Torah. That Daas Torah is decided by my Rav and Rabbeim, not by a kochleffel askan.
agreed jothar
ps- didn’t I make it clear in my first post on this topic that I did not attend?
Jothar, I think Rav Fuerst is contending that the person — who is a Godol himself, not an Askan — who checked out the matziv in India was fooled or mistaken. Nevertheless, I believe Rav Eliyashev disagrees with Rav Fuerst and stands by his India psak. Am I mistaken? Here you are contending the Gedolim were all mistaken, as they haven’t retracted their signature from last year.
I heard that Lipa made a siyum on Masseches Megilla and went to Kosher Delight afterward for a Seudas Mitzvah. Mazel Tov!
Joseph, from what I understand (from my Rav who is a talmid of Rav Elyashiv as well as from other sources), the Indian sheitel psak has been quietly withdrawn, based on the Shach that says a double Rov is batel by issurei hana’ah (Rov Indian hair is not from Tirupati, and rov hair is not from India, even if it is 100% avodah zarah, which is debatable). As for the Gedolim who still signed on, I do not know. I am not their talmid, I do not have a kesher with them, and I can only follow my own rabbeim, who don’t endorse concerts but don’t feel they should be banned, as the blowback from last year’s kol koreh confirmed. You clearly believe a concert is worse than ham radio. Unless I’m mistaken, the metzius of ham radio is that you announce your call sign and see who responds. Being that ham radio is not a popular Jewish hobby, chances are you’ll be talking to goyim instead of yidden. Svara pshuta tells me that ham radio is worse than concerts. Have you ever asked a gadol about it? Depending on who you asked, they might tell you that it’s not the best hobby but as long as you’re careful they won’t assur it, as it’s something you personally need. Same thing with concerts.
YW Moderator-42, does that mean you’re (subtly) taking a stand on this issue?
Jothar, you have a repeated tendency to make bold, and incorrect, assumptions. 🙂
BTW, since when can a psak din be “quietly withdrawn”? And saying “from what I understand” does not instill a whole lot of confidence in your statement.
True, it does not. But I was told from my rav ( a talmid of Rav Elyashiv), and from a friend besheim Rav Nachum Eisenstein from Israel (a close talmid of Rav Elyashiv) that it was withdrawn. I have every right to trust them. I do not use absolute statements in my post if I’m not 100% sure of them, so I trade off confidence-building statements for truth.
Please correct my assumptions, and fully explain the metzius of ham radio, and why you got a heter for it.
“I heard that Lipa made a siyum on Masseches Megilla and went to Kosher Delight”
MOD39- which Kosher Delight were you thinking about when you read that post???
As for the “quietly withdrawn” part, I was told it was zilusa debei dina to make a public retraction. Again, this is eid mipi eid mipi eid, so as much as I would like to make a bold statement, I frankly can’t. Plus, I don’t understand it, as lezilusa debei dina lo chayashinan. But that’s what I’ve heard. I will try to get some more clarity on this IY”H, although I will understand if my rav is vague on the issue. Fortunately his sons are more free with their speech.
When it first came it there was a big tumult. Many anti-sheitel askanim and kanaim used it to stage sheitel-burning events, and many women gave up their favorite sheitels for these. There were bunches of articles written attacking sheitels in general in the papers too. When it slowly came out that the sheitels were muttar, many of these women felt betrayed (column by rabbi Moshe Grylak in Mishpacha a while back- their site is not responding so I can’t dig up the original). I was told by one of my friends “in the know” (again, unconfirmed, but he’s usually reliable) that there were those in Eretz yisroel spreading the shmuah that Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach assered sheitels at the end of his life, even though his own daughters used to wear them! Such are askanim. That is why I follow my gedolim and rabbeim.
Whose the dude on picture #5?
someone who did not attend…..
Jothar, you seem to view Gedolim as helpless pawns of “askanim” and who cannot see past them — something apparently you can.
it said onthe screen to joinlipa & dedi at Kd in manhattan after the concert
Joseph, I can’t see anything. I rely on gedolim. I just don’t rely on kol korehs without further guidance from my own rabbeim. Forged signatures on kol korehs have been known to happen. Furthermore, as Rabbi Fuerst (who has more emunas chachamim then you or me) said when I asked him to clarify his comment about Rav Eliashiv, “she’eilas chacham chatzi teshuva”. Kol korehs aren’t written by gedolim. They are written by askanim. BIG difference. As such, they aren’t always Torah MiSinai.
The recent Yated article about askanim highlighted the dangers of askanim with no daas torah running the agenda. If you speak to any rebbe you are close to, I’m sure he’ll have plenty of stories of askanim and the damage they cause. I’m not saying ignore kol korehs either. I’m saying to speak to your rav or rebbe for more guidance. Nosson Kaminetzky said that when he spoke to Rav Eliashiv about the lanaguage of the kol koreh against his book, Rav Eliashiv said that he never put it in such harsh terms. My rabbeim tell me to find out further guidance about every kol koreh that comes out. If your rabbeim tell you to follow them blindly no matter what, then kol hakavod. My mesorah is different.
Jothar, can you clarify who/what you mean when using the term “askan”? And why would so many Gedolim, apparently so frequently in your view, fall prey to them?
“Joseph
Member
Jothar, you have a repeated tendency to make bold, and incorrect, assumptions. “
Joseph remains the funniest contributor to this site.
Askan means baalabos doing klal work, not a gadol. Their agendas and actions are not as pure as those from a gadol, who by definition is a tremendous baal middos (Rav Shach told this to Shlomo Lorincz, and Rabbeinu yonah on Pirkei Avos confirms this). When we say daas chachamim hepech midaas baalabatim, we don’t just mean the “left-wing” baalabatim. The chazon Ish ZT”L referred to neturei karta as “Jews from before Mattan torah”, even though their views on Zionism were similar. However, their actions based on those views were so divergent that The chazon Ish ZT”L had to clarify. The Chazon Ish fought Zionism, but he wasn’t about fighting and hatred. Neturei karta, on the other hand, was about fighting, but they happened to be fighting zionism. That is how they could descend into hugging Jew-haters, while the Chazon Ish ZT”L was known for his
Many askanim have personal agendas, or are fooled into believing that all is muttar when you can wrap yourself in the cloak of “leshem shomayim”. One gadol once described this difference as the difference between a house cat and a housewife in terms of mice. both will kill mice, but one would rather the mouse not be there, while the other wants the mouse to be there in order to kill it. As you never know with askanim, it pays to speak to a rebbe for guidance. Finally, Rav Shach ZT”L publicly went against Maarava and Michlala, but told talmidei chachamim working in them to stay. So clearly you can’t go based on kol korehs.
Gedolim are fooled a lot less than you or me, but we Yidden don’t believe Daas Torah means papal infallibility. It means their viewpoint on issues stems from the Torah, not from a personal bias or agenda. Rav Shach helped found the Shas party, and later withdrew his support when they joined with Shulamit Aloni.
Thanks Jothar for that beautiful Moshel from the Gadol. Anyone know who that Gadol is???
Jothar: As always, you have the facts before you post and isn’t it refreshing to have a Rav with whom you can converse and seek true p’sak din.
It’s unfortunate that there are those who post their own definitive p’sak din which are lifted, verbatim, from Rav Google. These posters, unfortunately, do not attribute their scholarly research to the real author; i.e. Rabbi Howard Jachter and Rabbi Doniel Neustadt.
To make matters worse, not only do they not give credit to the authors, the posters will cut and paste partial answers to suit their own opinions. Unfortunately, this practice will not quicken the coming of Moshiach.
There are quite a few Rabbonim (including my Rav) who make it their policy not to sign any Kol Koreh for the reasons you state.
My bet – it was his rosh yeshiva (the rosh yeshiva), zt”l.
BTW EVERYONE- donno- I heard from someone who attended the concert that it was very nice but really nothing major.
But why all the arguing? Please everybody- use your senses and stop fighting. You all KNOW that we’re all different with different hashkafos. PLEASE!!!!!
Cherrybim, I appreciate the compliment, although I acknowledge that I have been wrong plenty of times too.
Smartcookie, arguments are how yeshiva guys communicate.
smartcookie – Exactly. It wasn’t anythng major this time around, cause the Rabbonim made sure the letzanus that was prevalent in the run up to last years, was absent this time. This is why it was allowed to proceed.
Jothar –
“represent the opinion of the askan who forced it on them”
No Askan can “force” anything on the Gedolim, let alone so many of them.
“we Yidden don’t believe Daas Torah means papal infallibility.”
No one ever said otherwise. The Gedolim themselves admit as much. Can a Godol make a mistake? Of course he can. But the problem is, so can we. And so, although a Godol can theoretically make a mistake, if we see thingss differently than the way a Godol did, then the only reasonable conclusion is that we are wrong, not the Gedolim, since his words were statedwith siyata dishmaya, as well as with the interpretative skills possesed by a Godol. Compare it to a little kid who falls and dislocates his shoulder. A doctor comes and starts to snap it into place. The kid feels the pain and refuses to allwo the doctor to snap it back. The kid says, “You dont know what youre doing. I learned in 5th grade form my teacher who is reliable that pain is the bodiy’s way of saying somethgin is wrong, and if what youre doing is causing pain that memas my body says its wrong. You doctors arent infallible! I dont believe in the Christian concept of papal infallibility! Go away!” The kid is an idiot, of course. If someone thinks a Godol makes a mistake, people can ask the Godol and point out what he thinks the mistake is, and the Godol will retract or restate if indeed their was an error. You and I cannot state or determine that a Godol made a mistake.
(BTW the Rema in Toras HaOlah (1:2) states clearly that we assume rabbinic science to be infallible, and ancient rabbinic knowledge of astronomy complete.)
Also, you are mixing up your story about the Chazon Ish. He said no such thing about the NK. In fact the NK never “hugged Jew-haters.” These people you see in the news these days that call themselves NK are fakes. The true NK was established in the ’30’s by the recognized Gaon HaTzaddik Rav Amram Blau ZT’L, who lived until the ’70’s I believe.
Will hill, agreed 100% about your description of gedolim. So when they declare that they made a mistake like Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky Shlit”a said, and when I hear that others said the same thing, I tend to believe them. Which gadol are you referring to who only switched because the leitzanus was toned down? Can you please provide a source? If anything, the ads this year had more leitzanus.
As for your confidence in what askanim can and cannot do, you are sadly mistaken. Most gedolim don’t go to concerts. They are forced to take the word of these askanim as to what goes on. The askan who put together last year’s ban was someone they knew and felt was reliable.
Will Hill, I admire your confidence that there was no such quote from the Chazon Ish, and I was mixing up. However, The quote came from the book “In Their Shadow” page 94, the book which had Rav Chaim Kanievsky affirm the veracity of almost all the stories within. In a machlokes between you and Shlomo Lorincz about what the Chazon Ish held about Neturei Karta, I’m forced to go with him. Here’s the exact quote:
“On another occasion, the Chazon Ish once described Neturei Karta as ‘Jews from before Mattan Torah’, meaning that their zeal was not shaped by the ways of the Torah. “
The preceding story about the Chazon Ish and NK mentioned that one of the younger members of a delegation that accused him of not being sufficiently anti-Zionist acted in an improper manner towards the Chazon Ish and did not live out the year.
Will, can you explain your astronomy point in light of the fact that the gemara itself (Pesachim 94 or nearby) says that the non-Jewish astronomers were correct and Chazal were wrong on the orbit of the Sun. Also the Rambam says in Hilchos Deyos that the Sun goes around the Earth, and is embedded in a sphere, and each of the planets is embedded in a hard sphere, as well, and there is no space in between the spheres. Also the dimensions of the Sun and Moon are about an order of magnitude off from currently accepted values.
This doesn’t bother me at all since the Rambam says in Kiddush Hachodesh 17,24 that anything proven mathematically or scientifically, even by a non-Jew carries the same weight as Divrei Neviim in halacha. So the Rambam in Deyos was going with the best science of his times, but would have been the first to say we should follow the best science of our day, not his day.
(Incidentally, you don’t mean to say that our astronomers don’t know orbits, do you, as if so, kindly explain how they got the 24 GPS satellites into correct orbit transmitting accurate positional information to your car.)
Pashuteh, He merely referenced the REMA’s statement, not his own pshat or point.
Medrash Tehillim (19) quotes Shmuel as sayign he is an expert in the streets of Nehardea as much as he is an expert in the ‘streets’ of the heavens. the Medrash asks how Shmule knew all of that, and it answers he knew it all through the Torah. It then quotes a R, Hoshea as saying there is “space” between the upper waters and the firmament, and the Medrash asks how R, Hoshea could know this unless he traveled to space. It answers, he knew it from the Torah.
The Gemora in Bechoros 8a derives from a posuk in Bereishis the fact that gestation period of a snake is longer than the rest of the animal kingdom. This is cited by the Ramban (Toras Hashem Temima p.159 in Chavel edition) as but one example of how Chazal knew facts of science from the pesukim in the Torah that describe Brias HaOlam. He cites more. He says “the sages of Yisroel have knowledge through these pesukim of all of creation.”
Rabbeinu Bachyai writes in the Introduction to Chumash that all wisdom and science in existence is contained in Torah.
The Chosid Yaavatz (Ohr Hachaim) says that chazal knew science form a Mesroah that goes back all the way to the Neviim, who knew it from Hashem, without any effort at all.
Particularly interesting is a statement on this topic in the Aruch Hashulchan (EH 13). Quote:
“I will tell you a great principle: Chazal, besides their holiness and wisdom in the Torah, were also greater scholars in the natural sciences those savants(“mischakmim”) who would argue against their pure words. And someone who disagrees with them testifies about himself that he does not believe in Torah she bal peh, even though he would be embarrassed to admit it outright.”
Chasam Sofer (Beshalach) writes that this is the meaning of the posuk “Ki hi chachmascha ubinascha l’einei ha’amim” – Chazal were great experts in the secular sciences and disciplines. In fact, you need to know much secular knowledge in mmany areas in order to properly understand the Torah – and he gives several simple examples. However, since we are supposed to be busy learning Torah – not secular science – all day and night, and Hashem has no “nachas ruach” from us learning secular studies at all, how would Chazal have known all the secualr wisdom that they clearly knew, as we see they did from all of Shas?
Answer: They knoew it from the Torah, since the entire body of secular wisdom is included in the Torah, for the Torah is the bluepeint of the world. And so, when the Goyim see that we do not study the secular science books at all – and we even disagree with them! – yet we derive all the secular knowledge, in the most precisely accurate form – from only the Sefer Torah, they will exclaim, “Am chacham v’navon hagoy hagadol hazeh!” (A similar explanation is given by the Raavad-ibn Daud. He says that the posuk refers to the philosophical truths that it took the nations centuries to develop, we knew all the time via tradition from Har Sinai.)
Not only do we see that Chazal learned their science from the Torah, but Rav Breil, the Rebbi of the Pachad Yiztchok teaches us that we do not even entertain the possibility of a scientific statement in Chazal not coming from the Torah .This we see from Rav Briel’s answer to the Pachad Yiztchok’s question regarding the killing of lice on SHabbos. The Gemora permits it, based on a scientific fact. The Pachad Yiztchok asked his Rebbi that due to the possibility that this scientific fact is incorrect, perhaps we should be machmir and not kill lice on shabbos, just in case.
Once we establish that the scientific knowledge that is incorporated into Torah Shebal Peh is derived form the Torah, it has the same status as all of Chazal’s interpretaitons of the Torah — they are binding:
The Gemora in Sanhedrin (100a) tells that R. Yochanan derived from a posuk that when Moshiach comes, the gates of Jerusalem will be made of jewels 30 amos long and 30 amos high. Some student said that such big jewels do not exist – “we do nto even find jewels as big as doves eggs,” he said. Then, one day the student saw angels (!) cutting such big stones, and he asked them what they are for. The angels answered: “They are for the gates of Jerusalem”. When next he saw R. Yochana, he praised his qualifications for expounding the Torah, based on his “scientific observation” that confirmed the Rebbi’s interpretation.
R. Yochanan responded, “Bum! You only believe because of what you see? You dishonor the words of the sages!”, and the student died.
The Ran (Drashos #13) points out that the statemnt of R. Yochana had no halachic relevence at all – it was merely an Agadic interpretation, and the disagreement was regarding a scientific fact, yet the student was punished for not believing in its truth. Therefore, he concludes:
“Just as we are commanded to follow their opinions regarding laws of the Torah, so too are we commanded to follow all of what they say from tradtiion in Hashkafa (“Deos”), and medrash on Pesukim. And someone who veers from their words, even in somethgin that has no relevence to any Mitzvah, is an Apikores and has no share in the next world.
The Radvaz (4:232) writes that “Aggadah is part of the Torah shebal peh and is rooted in what Moshe receieved on Har Sinai directly from Hashem, just like the rest of Torah shebal peh”.
Similarly from the Alshich: “Nobody has a right in our generation to disagree based on his own opinion, if he did not find such an opinion from his predecessors (Rebbeim). We are commanded “lo sosur”, which includes also Agadita.” (Shmuel II 21:1)
The Sifri (48) explains the posuk in Devarim 11:22, “And you really follow all this Mitzvah”, that “this means to learn Midrash, Halachah, and Agada.”
Rav Yiztchok Izak Chaver in Magen Vtzenah (p,49) – there are people who reject Chazal’s statemetns because the secular scientists disagree (he gives examples, such as the sun rising above the firmament at night etc), and they laugh saying that we know its not true. they are fools. The {b]GAR, who even the scientists admit that he knew science much better than them, accepted all words of Chazal as fact, and that the philosophers and scientists (chachmei hatechunah) are all wrong, and he believed in the truth of the simple straightforward understanding of the words of Chazal. The GRA said that the scientists didnt come to the ankles of our sages in any secular discipline or science.
Chida (Shem Hagedolim: “Seforim”:5:82) – There are a minority of Gedolim among us who disagreewith Chazal because of their scientific knowledge, but they do not understand that Chazal had Eliyhau Hanavi informing them, and they had Ruach HaKodesh to inform them.
Chasam Sofer — Please see the Chasam Sofer in Beshalach I quoted above. He says the same thing in Drashos Chasam Sofer Vol. 1 p.100b. Our phophets and sages know all the sciences much better than the scientists even though all they learn is Torah. This is because the One Who created nature informs our sages of the corretc facts. This is what amazesthe Nations, as it says, Am navon v’chacham hagoy hagodol hazeh!
An identical interpretation to that of the Chasam Sofer’s explanation Am navon v’chacham(I quoted one earlier in the name of ibn Daud regaridng philosophical knowledge) is found in the Ramak (Sefer HapPardes 13:6) regarding astronomy.
From the Maharal (Ber Hagolah 6):
The Maharal is explaining why Chazal sometimes seem to contradict what science says:
[Chazal] [physical] descriptions, but rather the words of our sages refer to the essence, and have no relation to the outer, material matter.
Wow Joesph! How quick can you type???
To say that “Chazal reflects the inaccurate science of their times” is not only inaccurate, but apikorsus.
I should say the majority of Achronim state that Chazal did not go by the scientific knowledge of their time.
The earth revolving around the sun is onyl relative. Nobody has proven nor even claims that it is absolute. In other words, if the Earth is the center of the universe, and the entire universe revolves around the earth, it will appear form the vantage point of anyone located within the universe that the sun is revolving around the earth, when in reality it is the opposite.
For example, lets say you throw a ball south at the speed of 60 MPH. To you and to those around you it would appear that the ball is moving and you are stationary.
But then, if you and all of those observers were actually riding on a bus traveling north at 60 MPH, then from the perspective of someone outside of the bus that ball, after you threw it, was perfectly still. It was you and your environment that were moving.
But then, what if the world was rotating at a speed of 60 MPH in the direction of south. Then, those observers outside of the bus would be the ones moving, the bus would be stationary, and the ball would indeed be traveling at 60 MPH.
Movement relative to another object depends on your perspective. And in order to know, ultimately, whether the earth revolves around the sun, because the earth is moving, or the sun revolves around the earth because the universe is moving and earth is stationary, you would have to measure form a vantage point outside of the universe, and nobody has been able to do that yet. At least not scientists.
So the idea that the earth revovles around the sun is like saying that the ball is moving inside the bus. Maybe. Or maybe everythign is moving in your immediate area except the ball. You’d have to be outside the bus to know that.
Same thing here. To know whether it is the earth or the sun that is moving, you would have to take into consideration the entire universe’s movement, which no scientists has been able to do.
[hold] that we [abide]
1) You cant teach someone that something against the Halachah is correct, even if you cant think of a better answer to his question;
2) This is not only a spin on the Halachah, but an unnecessary one as well. There are many other answers available that are Halachicly correct. Instead of using bad but easy answers, work harder and learn the right ones.
Second: It is not at all clear that this statement in the Maamar al Drashos Chazal, as printed in the Ain Yaakov, was ever written by Rabbeinu Avrohom to begin with.
There is also a sefer Imrei Yosher on Midrash which quotes the ma’amar of R. Avraham, and does not contain the controversial section.
The Arabic section found in the library of Westminster College in England also does not contain that section. (Regrettably, it is not a complete version, so it cannot offer conclusive proof.)
It is possible that Eilenburg added these ideas on his own. It is possible that he found them elsewhere as a commentary to R. Avraham and therefore, in his edition, listed the ideas as being separate from R. Avraham’s own words. The other possibility is that he really was using R. Avraham’s words, but lied and pretended they were his own thoughts.
Another interesting difference is that the printed editions have the signature of R. Avrohom at the end of the Maamar, which is clearly a forgery, for in all the kisvei yad of this, Rabbeinu Avraham’s signature does not appear at the end.
So we know for a fact that they forged Rabeinu Avrohoms signature at the end of the Maamar. The manuscripts contradict this, and rightly so, because the Maamar Al Drashos Chazal is an excerpt from the Sefer HaMaspik L’Ovdei Hashem, written by Rabbeinu Avrohom ben HaRambam, so why would he sign his name in the middle of a sefer? The maskilim obviously had an agenda, and we know from Rav Tzaddok that they liked to tamper with Kisvei Yad in this way. There is no question at all that the Maskilm tampered wiht the Ksav Yad; the only question is how much. We see they definitely tampered with the end, they sure could have tampered with the beginning, maybe even with the ksav yad they found by Oppenheim.
The first time ma’amar odos drashos chazal was ever printed, it was printed by the Maskilim, in their publication, Kerem Chemed, year 2, in 1836. Later, in 1859 it went to kovetz teshuvos Rambam. Ein Yaakov first printed it in 1877.
Rav Tzaddok (Zichronos 51) writes that a well known tactic of maskilim was to print kisvei yad of rishonim to which they had exclusive access, adding comments to fit their agenda and claiming it was the view of this rishon. He says we should be very wary of new kisvei yad when published, checking for insertions to support the agenda of maskilim, unless you know the motzi la’or.
The manuscript with the controversial segment was in a library in Germany and may have been altered before being sent to the printer and later being placed in Oxford.
In Moreh Nevuchim (3:14) the Ranbam writes:
“Do not ask me to reconcile everything that they (i.e. Chazal) mentioned regarding astronomy with what is reality, for the sciences in those days were lacking, and they did not speak about them through traditions from the prophets, but rather on their own independent knowledge or what was obtained from contemporary scientists.”
The Rama in Toras HaOlah (1:2) quotes this Rambam and strongly disagrees, stating clearly that we assume rabbinic science to be infallible, and ancient rabbinic knowledge of astronomy complete. The Ramah has stated that we do not pasken like the Rambam here. As do the Maharal and the majority of our Torah authorities throughout the ages, as mentioned above.
Finally, if we take this statement of the Rambam in the context of his own statements elsewhere, what he says in More Nevuchim may mean something entirely different:
In summary:
3) The Rambam only stated that Chazal relied on the science of their times regarding astronomy, about with the Rambam himself states that we had a tradition from the prophets but it went lost, and that is why we must rely on the science of the gentiles.
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The Galgalim have sources in Chazal as well, as Rav Chaim Kanievsky points out in Kiryas Melech (Yesodei Hatorah 3:1).
Here’s how this works: The Rishonim will quote something from the Greek philosophers but which really comes from Kabbalah. They do this because when citing Kabalistic ideas, they often try to conceal them as much as possible. Therefore, if something is well known as a Greek philosophical concept, they will quote it as such even though its source is Judaism. Example: The Ramban’s hyly (hiuli?)at the beginning of Bereishis, which he notes and sources as Greek. Both the Satmar Rebbe (Divrei Yoel Bereishis p.61) and Rav Elya Lopian (quoted by Rav Scwardron) say the hyly is a Kabbalistic, spiritual idea, which the Greeks took from us. The Divrei Yoel explains that the Ramban quoted this in the name of the Greeks because it is the derech of the Ramban to camouphlage such sodos in physical terms – the same as Chazal often did. (see also Rama Toras HaOlah on Boruch Sheamar).
Another one of these concepts is the 4 elements (fire, waster, air, and earth), which is quoted all over by the Greeks but comes from Kabbalah – they took it from us.
The idea that the Greeks took their philosophical ideas from us is all over the Rishonim and Achronim, including the Ramban himself (Toras Hashem Temimah p.162). He says that they lifted their knowledge from the Jews, and eventually it got distorted by them. But the source is Judaism. The Kuzari says the same thing (2:66 – see also 2:19 and 1:62) as does the Shevili Emunah (nesiv 8) the Rama (he brings that Socrates got his wisdom from Asaf and Achitofel (Toras Haolah 1:12), and Chosid Yaavetz (Ohr Hachaim 6). The Chida (Midbar Kadmos – Sheva Chachmos) says this in the name of the Rambam (se also Moreh Nevuchim 1:71).
Basically what happened was, people like Shlomo HaMelech and the Neviim had this chachma, the Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle learned from them, we went into Golus and a lot of it got lost, while among the Greeks it got grotesquely distorted. So youll find Torah and Kabbalistic concepts among the Goyim but kind of in a messed up way. Sometimes Rishonim such as the Ramban will identify some crumb of truth among them that comes from us and he will quote it from them if it is known as such.
Regarding Ptolmey himself, the Abarbanel (Shmos 12) quotes Ptolmey as being so impressed with the Jews’ astronomical calculations, that he said it proves the Jews had prophecy. In the Sefer Eretz Zvi (by Rav Aryeh Zvi Fromer ZTL, Rosh Yeshiva in Chachmei Lublin), quotes more such sources about Ptolmey.
This discussion about Science and Chazal, whilst interesting to some, is quite off the point. If one wants to continue this discussion, I request it be done in a more appropriate forum (i.e. not in a thread about the concert).
If anyone wants their previous posts here removed, let it be known through a post.
I will leave this thread open, please lets get back on topic
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