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I’m listening to a shiur by R Dovid orlofsky on platonic relationships
Which leads me to ask to you believe there’s such a things no as platonic relationships?
It’s well established that the platonic relationship doesn’t exist
Fairly common sense, that platonic relationships are unnatural.
No such thing.
It might happen if both are 90 years old or older
Depends what you mean. Do you mean that the guy will have to pretend to feel nothing, and the idea of being close to a girl and stopping there will drive him crazy, yes, it will. Does it mean he could in theory have that friendship and never act on those feelings, and limaaseh have a friendship that’s tough for him to keep in check, yes, he can. Why is it any different than someone who’s MZ being friends with a regular guy?
adocsParticipant
Fairly common sense, that platonic relationships are unnatural.
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Why would doing something un natural lay a role in the question
We as yiddin do many things which are unnatural on a daily basis.Depends on how you define “Platonic”. If you mean that a man and a woman cannot have a close friendly relationship without having romantic feelings, you’re probably right. On the other hand, if you mean that such feelings will, inevitably lead to action, not so. (Vide Maseches Sukos, 52B). Also, Joseph, with all due respect to R’Moshe ZT”L, one cannot paskin a metzius, Perhaps you used the wrong word. Perhaps you meant that it was R’ Moshe’s opinion that such a relationship was impossible, and that we hedyotos should give serious weight to his opinion.
Redleg, it is prohibited to do anything thàt’ll result in romantic feelings. As such it is impermissible for a man and a woman to have a close friendly relationship.
Regarding Rav Moshe, what he paskens is that it is prohibited for a male and female to be friends. No one disputes this halacha. The only machlokes is whether the prohibition is a m`doraia or whether it is “only” a severe rabbinic prohibition. No one at all disputes that it is prohibited.
Great shiur with his trademark honesty and humor
Have psychologists studied this?
I’m a psychologist as a side gig. What do you want to know?
Have you ever done a study tracking a man and a woman who claim to have a platonic relationship?
As far as I know, the stereotype is pretty accurate: most “platonic” relationships are platonic on the woman’s side but not so much for the man.
“Have you ever done a study tracking a man and a woman who claim to have a platonic relationship?”
Who cares.
Would anyone cross the street without looking, until they have “data” to support that it is dangerous, or would a single person getting run over by a truck when crossing without looking convince them that it is a bad idea?
In general widespread experience that a particular behavior is associated with troublesome results, do not require a formal study involving case/control to convince a reasonable person of the danger inherent .👑RebYidd23,
False .most “platonic” relationships are never platonic for either side.Men are usually naïve,women are just more subtle.Discussed this once with a couple of my auntsI’m sure a couple of your aunts know a lot on this subject.
On the contrary,
My older aunts were relatively mild. The dubiousness of supposed platonic relationships are worse than that.Even for those 90 and older . intimacy is only one aspect. The impact one wishes to leave on another person after one passes away differs if it is of the other gender
Coffee – what difference does it make if it’s possible. Have you ever had such a relationship? If so can you be sure it would never change?
Joseph what about modern Orthodox who have coned schools and camps?
IITFT: “Even for those 90 and older . intimacy is only one aspect. The impact one wishes to leave on another person after one passes away differs if it is of the other gender”
Can you elaborate on that, IITFT?
JJ2020: They’re living a lie. Isn’t that obvious to you?
I have a lot to say on this subject, but for now I’ll share a story I heard from R’ Manis Friedman, dean of Beis Chana (for Baalei tshuva girls).
Basically there was a girl learning there once who was totally unkept; she very much neglected herself and it was crudely obvious.Well she had a lot of issues that she needed to discuss with someone so finally one day she arranges to speak with the rav. Upon entering his office, she makes to close the door behind her, but of course R’ Manis says to her to leave it open. She looks at him questioningly, and he explains that “a man and a woman shouldn’t be in a room together alone.”
When she heard that she began crying uncontrollably, explaining to him once she regained her composure that this was the first time she remembered being treated like a woman…Siegel- What exactly is the connection to the subject?
Toi: it demonstrates how a woman’s nature is inherent, as well as that of a man. People can act differently on the outside, but inherently a woman is still a woman and a guy will (perhaps not to consciously) see her as such.
That has nothing to do with a woman’s nature.
Oh.
This is a question of fact and there is a whole world where reality takes place and one can take away facts based on those realities. And in the general world there are people who are in platonic relationships and they keep it so not because anything is preventing them from changing the nature of the relationship, but precisely the opposite. And that is that the nature of a romantic relationship is completely different from that of a platonic one, people are in platonic relationships that go on for years. And in the general world where there are much more people interested in romantic relationships over platonic ones, a platonic relationship is harder to find and much less common.
However if the question is in regard to yidden where a romantic relationship is assur, it is much more likely that using the term platonic does not mean that is the true intnetion.There is also a difference between a group relationship and an individual relationship. There are friends in a group of friends who never spend time together one on one.
Reb Y23,Bais,
missed the boat.It seems nice and correct except that it wrong
’tis easy to presume it is inherent though in actuality it is societal construct
Society can and does forcibly restructure gender attitudes whether overtly or less so
e.g.1984Coffee – i went to coed schools. I think that there were individual relationships that may have been platonic but nobody had only platonic relationships. There was always the awareness of someone you have eyes for or someone you think has eyes for you. It was always an undercurrent. And many platonic relationships morph out of platonic.
I heard that lecture decades ago and it rang true back then. I dont think anyone with a platonic relationship is having that relationship without already having someone else in their mind romantically.IITFT, the format of your post obscures your intentions. Indeed, I do not think that the point you are trying to make is in any way relevant to what I said. Whether or not something is based on societal forces has no bearing on this discussion, because that is a question of origin, not of humanity’s current state.
Redleg, it is prohibited to do anything thàt’ll result in romantic feelings.
You mean that every romantic thing I’ve been doing in my marriage over the last quarter century is forbidden?
The Wolf
Wolf: Reminder – This thread is discussing relationship’s between males and females who are not married to each other.
You may now return to your soapbox.
it is prohibited to do anything that’ll result in inappropriate romantic feelings.
Better, Wolf?
I don’t think it’s impossible to have a true platonic relationship with someone of the opposite gender, but it is extremely difficult. In almost all cases, yes, the male involved will be thinking those things (you know what I’m referring to.)
I can say from personal experience that there was one girl I had a platonic relationship with. How did it work? Because I didn’t find her the least bit attractive. 0%. Since I really didn’t find her attractive at all, I was able to have a platonic relationship with her.
With every other girl I knew when I was younger, it didn’t work that way. Even if I didn’t find them super attractive, there was always that small amount, which would lead to those thoughts. I didn’t have many friends of the opposite gender – it was more like some of them were within the same group of friends I was in. We would sometimes all go out together, but I definitely didn’t have a relationship where I’d hang out 1-on-1 with them, like I did with my guy friends.
So like I said, it’s not impossible, but it’s extremely difficult. There needs to be no attraction whatsoever, and that is very rare.For scientific reasons, men are far less picky than women when it comes to attraction, which leads to one-sided platonicness in a lot of relationships.
What happens if they become less scientific?
The men get picky also.
It’s possible to have platonic if you communicate mostly over the phone.
It’s mostly platonic when over the phone but gets non-platonic when in person.
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