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“Hey, he can compare his hypothetical wife to a house. Shlomo Hamelech compares the aishes chayil to a cargo ship…haysay kianiya socher…”
Did you forget the part where Shlomo goes on to say “Sheker Hachein, V’heval Hyofei”?
far east: My argument is that one can not know right away if the other person is attractive; such a statement would be ridiculous. My contention here is about being attracted and having feelings within the first five minutes. Sending the picture is the same reason I am shomer negiah, because it distorts my perception of the situation. Shidduchim is simply a process toward finding the person you want to build a home with, not a chaynek to display in the hallway.
Logician: “perhaps the women should come to the conclusion that they really just don’t get the reality of what men are?!….Either way just give it up already”
We get what men are. I just wonder why it is that men seem to think they have this upper hand over women. Is it because the odds are in favor of the men?
What exactly should we give up? Our self respect? Our feeling of self worth? Our values?
Maybe you should, or have your kids, go out on a shidduch date without DEMANDING she be a size[] or of whatever looks standards you deem ‘crucial’. Find a girl whose values and goals are in sync with yours. Then, go out to meet a human being with intellectual thoughts, dreams and passion, and see if you can become attracted to who she is instead of who she looks like.
interjection: it is obvious no one can have true “feelings” in the first 5 minutes. However you seem to be consumed with this idea that looks dont matter for anything and are only a side part of a healthy relationship. A picture doesnt tell the whole story, but a persons attractiveness is very important in a relationship. You can call me shallow, and i will call you a fool
“Did you forget the part where Shlomo goes on to say “Sheker Hachein, V’heval Hyofei”?”
Well, that makes a lot of sense given that he compares her to a cargo ship. I’m not aware of any cargo ships that would classify as yofi or exuding much chein. Well, perhaps to someone in the merchant marines, but to the average joe…
far east: “However you seem to be consumed with this idea that looks dont matter for anything and are only a side part of a healthy relationship. A picture doesnt tell the whole story, but a persons attractiveness is very important in a relationship.”
I know for certain that attraction is essential for a relationship. However, I also believe that looks enhance the attraction but should not define it. Nor should they define a relationship. Looks will grow on a person but only if the looks are not the foundation of the relationship.
interjection – slooow down.
I am in full agreement as to the demeaning nature of some of the requests made of the girls today. I “married off” sisters, I know what they go through, and I truly feel.
The fact remains, however, that women are often clueless about the way G-d made men. There have been countless posts saying things to the effect that the inside is what counts, and putting down those who actually care about the outside.
That is what I find ridiculous.
Telling us to date those we like for their inside, and then try your best to become attracted to them based on that – no, I am very sorry, you most assuredly do NOT get what men are.
[Of course, this is not only a mistake in this area. It is a basic lack of understanding about how G-d made people tick in general. I was simply sticking to the topic.]
Logician: +1
Girls: I hate to say this, but it’s really dumb to judge something you can’t understand. (I am a girl in shidduchim, for the record). The fact that the practice of requiring pictures of girls may or may not be over the top does not mean that the idea behind it is bunk.
“However, I also believe that looks enhance the attraction but should not define it.”
sounds like your starting to get caught up in your own mess. First you say looks shouldnt matter and the inside is what counts, and now looks only enhance the attractiveness
far east: Notice my semantics. My apologies, I should have made the difference more blatant. In life, one cannot have a mature argument if they alter the other’s statement. I did not say attractiveness, I said attraction. Attraction is crucial, her attractiveness (in the physical sense) is not so necessary.
Logician: “Telling us to date those we like for their inside, and then try your best to become attracted to them based on that – no, I am very sorry, you most assuredly do NOT get what men are.”
I have not said to disregard everything physical, just not to make life-long judgments based on it. My objection is on sending a picture and having the entire worth of a person be dependent on his/her looks, before you have even met him/her!
Yes, you had better find one another to be appealing to the eye, but that factor should not be decided until after you have given each other the decency of getting know the person.
Because, far east and Logician, perceptions do change.
and having the entire worth of a person be dependent on his/her looks
No one said that. But why can’t there be a factor which is far from most important, but can make or break it, and can (let us just say for now) be decided before ?
Because … perceptions do change
I agree. Getting to know the person can change their attractiveness to you.
[To some degree, of course.]
I too am a girl in shidduchim,going thru this crazy “system”– yet I do believe that we women do not realize to its fullest degree the way men operate. I will give them that, and in all fairness can appreciate their difficulty.
HOWEVER I do not think that a picture is an appropriate measure of attraction, and when trying to create a relationship that is built on numerous factors, the artificial impression of a picture does even beautiful girls a huge injustice.
How do guys feel if they are rejected for their looks. Let’s face it.. most guys also dont want to be rejected for merely the exterior. What ever happened to not judging a book by its cover?? Also while i agree a lot of girls have no clue about guys, i also think guys (apperently from this thread) dont know girls.
What ever happened to not judging a book by its cover??
But I assume I can judge a cover for itself ? And so if for whatever reason, I want a book WITH a cover, I am free to judge ?
How do guys feel if they are rejected for their looks
Are the girls here trying to claim they don’t say no to boys regularly because of looks ?! (Or do i only know weird girls?)
[Actually, maybe not, girls are very good at convincing themselves that they really had a different reason… 🙂 ]
My point is that if a girl rejects a guy for looks she feels bad for doing so. At least i do and most girls i know. We also feel bad for acting like we might be “leading the guy on” if we are going out a couple times and we still cant seem to be attracted. Hopefully guys can have the same sensitivity when they are making rejections. Listen if attractiveness is important to you on your list, than you do of course have the right to say no thank you. But seriously do it like a mench.
“How do guys feel if they are rejected for their looks”
Does it hurt their egos? of course it does…but thats part of life. Just like the guy wants the girl to be attractive, they cant be upset if the girl wants an attractive guy. I would expect the person i marry to be attracted to me
The problem with guys looking at photos is that most guys are not Mature enough and as soon as they see ANY photo they are likely to think something along the lines:
i think i’ve seen prettier girls around so i should wait for more offers because i might be able to get something better.
Guys think of all the girls who you went out with for more than 1 date and honestly answer yourself: would you give ALL those girls a chance if you only saw their photos?
If a person wants to fall for the other’s looks, it will happen. That is for certain, it is the way we are wired.
“And so if for whatever reason, I want a book WITH a cover, I am free to judge ?…..Are the girls here trying to claim they don’t say no to boys regularly because of looks ?! (Or do i only know weird girls?)”
You are always within your right to do whatever you choose. If it is approval of your opinions you seek, I happen to disagree. But apparently you are being set up with girls of the same mindset so it apparently works for both sides of the mechitza just as much as it fails. In that case, this dispute is simply a matter of personal preference and therefore a waste.
The library usually removes the cover from a book it removes from circulation.
Infer what you wish.
That is for certain, it is the way we are wired.
Where are you coming from ?! Funny, I always thought it was the other way around – you naturally have a feeling, and that influences your mind, something you have to try to resist if necessary.
I certainly am not looking for your approval. You said not to judge a book by its cover, I showed you that that saying is totally irrelevant, as it does not discuss priorities, but rather proper method of judgement.
Liveandlearn – where do you see girls saying no because of looks in a more menschliche way ?
2qwerty makes a fair point.
I am not being set up with anyone, I am happily married with kids.
Logician what would you tell a shadchan who wanted a picture of your daughter to give it to the boy? As an answer to you question, i believe girls do it in a more menchliche way cuz:
1. we usually dont ask for photos in the first place
2. speaking for myself and prob many girls, i wouldnt reject a decent looking guy if we “clicked”. and by decent i mean passable. I think most girls, will give the person a chance. Look i dont like skinny guys cuz they just look a bit whimpy to me. But if everything checked out.. i’d give him a shot. And that is where men and women may differ.
True. But:
1. I have already indicated that I agree that the girls are not treated properly.
2. I know many girls who do say no often because of looks.
3. Boys care more. We’ve established that. So you can’t use some of those points to prove menschlichkeit.
4. We know the boys, for whatever reason, have the upper hand these days, so girls are often forced to be more realistic. Also – so confident the girls would act so much better if the tables were turned ? (I happen to think they would, but its something to think about.
Logician: “Where are you coming from ?! Funny, I always thought it was the other way around – you naturally have a feeling, and that influences your mind, something you have to try to resist if necessary.”
It is called bechira. A person can convince them self of anything. I reflect back to when my a handful of friends/relatives were dating and were uncomfortable with the other’s looks. Now, months ahead (and others, years), they are obsessed with the other’s looks. I know I cannot see what they see and I remember their previous discomfort, but they wanted to love the all-inclusive picture of their spouse and it works.
Girls are not so desperate as you think, even if ‘boys have the upper hand’. Contrary to male belief, women were not created subsidiary to men. Why should we make acceptions in an area we hold against our values, because guys want it.
LiveandLearn- your pointing out how men and women differ. Thats exactly the point. Its unfair to call a guy shallow if he rejects a girl for looks, the same way a girl can be called shallow for rejecting a guy for missing an occasional minyan. Both are important, but boys and girls value them differently.
Logician, thank you for noticing my post.
No, it is certainly not called bechira. It is actually the opposite – the process I described earlier.
You can convince yourself of anything. Because you want something, you convince yourself its good etc. Thats the process we’re supposed to fight. Bechira is asserting that which you know to be right, despite NOT wanting it.
This has nothing to do with the attraction that develops within a relationship, as you described from your friends. You do not logically convince yourself to be attracted to someone. It is as someone described earlier – was it you ? – that attraction is not based just on the physical, and so as the relationship develops, so do those feelings. It is because those feelings are intertwined with the emotional relationship, not because you convinve yourself of anything.
I’m glad you’re not desperate. Due to what goes on, I know plenty of girls who are, and it def. affects their decision process. And it doesn’t have to do with values – we’re talking about accepting “flaws” in the physical.
2qwerty didn’t just make A point, it is THE point. Of course you need to be attracted to the person and there is nothing wrong with ending a shidduch because you were not attracted. But that is NOT the same thing as picking a date with someone because of their picture. There are probably a lot of people who you would not have picked if you used a picture as criteria but once you met them you saw them differently. If you start a date thinking someone is not attractive, but you have to spend an obligitory hour with them, you may actually find them attractive by the end of the hour. It has happened many times to many people. Looking at a picture in two dimensions only offers lustful options. Looking at and speaking to a person gives you the option to see if you are indeed attracted to them in the way that matters when establishing a friendship/life together.
I think the conversation here is really going off on a separate tangent. It is not about whether or not guys put too much emphasis on physical attraction (which they do of course, but Im a female) but about whether or not you can even know if you are attracted to someone through a photo. You would be surprised how many people knew they had found “the right one” before the chemistry kicked in. If they had given the girl/boy only a photo glance instead of a date, it would not have happened so easily.
Bechira can be applied anywhere.
True, you do not logically convince yourself to be attracted to someone. It is an emotional process but it is possible in a case where you truly want it.
“It is as someone described earlier – was it you ?” yup yup “that attraction is not based just on the physical, and so as the relationship develops, so do those feelings.”
I stand by what I said. I do not think the physical attraction is immensely important while dating. It is highly important in a marriage however, but your perception of your significant other’s looks change with time so the marriage should not be based on her looks! Just think for yourself if you feel your wife has become more beautiful with time.
“And it doesn’t have to do with values – we’re talking about accepting “flaws” in the physical.”
For me, I only seek a man who has the same vision for the future as well as the ability to get there. That is all. A picture will show me nothing about him than I can see in person.
The majority of people do not have actual flaws in their appearance. I really cannot understand the purpose in a picture. Is it to prove that the shadchan/friend did not mess you over with someone dysfunctional? If you have so little trust in the whoever set you up, then I do not know how you would be able to trust anything from them.
“we’re talking about accepting “flaws” in the physical.”
What type of physical “flaw” are you talking about? A glass eye r’l? A chup that doesnt hold all day? He looks more like rodney dangerfield than brad pitt?
Ok, ok, I’m sorry – “flaws” was the wrong term. I was just responding to the claim that girls should not give up on whats important to them because they’re desperate, so I pointed out that that was not the topic.
interjection – please face it, there is an objective side to beauty as well. And you know what – lets say you’re right, and its totally not necessary. But guys want it. But as I just wrote – its not WHAT they’re looking for. Greedy ? Maybe. Shallow ? Nope.
Why are you so sure, from your perspective as a girl, that you understand what does or does not work for the guys ?
Just to point something out.. All girls are beautiful in their own way. So maybe not what you consider to be beautiful or what society deems as “attractive”, but we’re all pretty. Most people are not downright ugly. Just saying.
LIVEandLEARN- agreed most people are not ugly. SO why do girls get offened when asked for a picture. Whats wrong with being curious about how the person looks. It shouldnt be made into such a big deal, its just common sense, of course you want to know what the person looks like before you meet. And dont say “its because looks arent whats really important”. Because thats sooo misleading. Looks are not the ONLY thing that is important but of course they play a role in determining who you marry.
How would a guy react if after all assurances by rabbeim, chavrusas, and friends that he is a lamdan first class, if the father of a girl asks for a copy of the guys last chabura to determine if he is worthy of dating his daughter.
Far East- but if you agree that most people are not repulsive, then why not take the chance and meet them in person?
Close the thread it’s way too vain;p!!
LiveandLearn- i never said i wouldnt. But id also be curious what the person looks like and i shouldnt be looked down upon for wanting to see a picture before the date.
And you didnt give me an answer yet. “Whats wrong with being curious about how the person looks”
apushatayid – First, no comparison, beauty is much more subjective. Plus I could say “and what makes him an authority to judge my learning”.
But actually – I do think yeshiva guys should be held much more accountable for their learning in regard to shidduchim.
I am so upset. I just picked up the picture I ordered of my daughter for her resume and instead of just charging me the 70 dollars to photoshop the skin and hair, and 50 to upgrade the headband and glasses to look more stylish, he charged me an additional 40 to change her eye color. Can you believe it? Its an outrage!
Nothing is wrong with being curious.. Obviously girls are also. It’s normal and natural. I guess that why everyone is usually so nervous before a first date. The girl has no idea whose walking in her door. I just dont get what the big deal is to wait a couple days and meet the actual person? So it’s not curiosity, it’s “is she worth my time?”
Logician: I have not said it is shallow to judge a person entirely by looks, only ridiculous. But you called it greedy. I prefer your word.
Neither have I claimed to know what works for guys. I said we know how guys work, not what works.
far east: “SO why do girls get offened when asked for a picture.”
One or both of two reasons. A: Every girl (even the most beautiful) has gone through a process of hating and subsequently loving (or coming to terms with) her looks. Judging her on looks is as personal as reading her diary. You asking for a picture, and then judging her on it is reminding her of that struggle. B: It is frequently the one thing about her which she cannot change nor fake. It is not something she has worked on, just something she was created with. It shows nothing about who she is! She wants to be acknowledged for all that she has to offer and overcome but instead you are merely noticing that which she had no say in.
And you want her to send a picture? Go ahead and base your decision on her looks. But at least give her the decency of meeting her first.
“First, no comparison, beauty is much more subjective.”
Girls want to marry a “learning boy” it is their number 1 priority supposedly, so to harp on his learning would actually make sense. Are you arguing that beauty is the number 1 priority for guys, to the point where they require a photo in advance despite the fact that most girls are not repulsive?
“Plus I could say “and what makes him an authority to judge my learning”.
And I can say, what makes that fat yenta with a moustache an authority on beauty that she needs a picture.
Interjection: I agree 100%! well said. All girls struggle with their looks, even models. Girls are so sensitive to this issue that this is the worst case scenerio of a rejection- rejecting for looks. It is obviously going to happen in the world, but without getting a date its a no?
apushtayid: Right on!
1. So if you want a girl who’s more than “not repulsive”, you’re too into looks ?
2. Where did you get that from ? I said its subjective, and so even if assured I want to see. If everyone says he’s good in learning, there’s not much doubt left. I said nothing about priorities.
3. You can be ugly, but still want looks (whether you’re realistic or not), and you are the quthority on what you like. But you can’t just claim to have the ability to judge someone’s learning.
Logician i have a great idea for buchrim.. pass around the high school yearbooks so they can pick the most attractive girl to them and then yay, shidduch. It’ll obviously save boys their precious time going out with a girl they might not find attractive.
Logician.
Either you are trying to dray a kup or you missed the point (I am leaning to the former).
Just answer this question. If shadchanim would start asking bachurim to submit a shtickel torah so they can keep it on file for potential shidduchim to review, is this something that would bother you. Would it make a difference if the girls would refuse to consider the boys without that sample?
I was not avoiding the point at all.
I would have nothing against it per se, I like the idea of people knowing what they’re really getting in terms of learning, but:
1. I can think of better ways than writing the shtickel Torah, but thats really not the point here.
2. Who would be reading and judging ? Its ridiculous to submit yourself to anyone’sscrutiny, when so many don’t have the ability to judge. As opposed to the question of looks, where the person judging is the only person who’s opinion matters.
But yes, I have no problem with some objective system for the girls to ensure they’re really getting what they’re told they are.
LIVEandLEARN – I’m not sure why I’m dignifying you with a response.
You know what, I won’t.
Logican- You just did!
apushetayid-your 100% right-
to quote from the thread- financial support- they do it because “that’s how its done” but guess what!? we can change how its done- you really think girls want to be judged first on their looks rather than their personality????? they do it because that’s what they are told to do-
“Its ridiculous to submit yourself to anyone’sscrutiny”
so, you agree with me 🙂
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