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a little suspense never killed anyone, did it?
(just because I’m in that kinda mood…)
popa
You can choose the most gorgeous house on the block, go into contract, send in the Inspectors… and THATS when all hell breaks loose.
bygirl93 just thought I would clarify. I don’t know what they teach you in high school but guys are very interested in looks even the very shtark ones. Believe it or not but on the date they will check you out( discreetly). In fact, in yeshiva they are taught that they must be attracted to her. True, if someone marries a girl for only her looks he is an idiot, but as was already explained here he is just checking out her picture to see if there is a possibility of attraction.
I am curious if this is a fight between those who are unattractive/have unattractive wives and those that are attractive/have attractive wives (or unmarried males)
yguy1: That a bunch of baloney. In the real Yeshivos the boys are taght — and they practice — that looks are NOT a priority. In the shvacher yeshivos and shvacher bochorim they may fail on this. As long as you wont throw up looking at her, it depends on her middos etc. And C”V the boys do NOT “check out” (sic) the girls. That is an entirely goyisha term.
I didn’t say it’s a priority just that it has to the attraction to her looks has to exist. not just that he won’t throw up looking at her. Of course her middos etc. are the most important criteria but attraction is also a necessary criteria. I remember a shmuz by a well known rosh yeshiva in my old yeshiva ( a very shtark one) where he cautioned guys from thinking that a ben torah shouldn’t worry about looks. he said that if he isn’t attracted to her he should not marry her.
I apologize for making you uncomfortable with the phrase “checking her out” but that is the most accurate way of describing it. I guess a different way to say it would be “seeing if you find her chitzonius attractive”
As a matter of fact, they don’t teach anything about this in most yeshivos, shvach or not shvach.
And I’m not sure what you’re picturing as all those yeshivos. There are about 4 yeshivos in America that guys date from.
Trying my best:
It’s nice that you don’t think so but most boys definitely “check out” their dates. Some more discretely than others…
apushetayid,
Another great example. Because Shlomo Hamelech had such great, fulfilling marriages, right?
You think he had a miserable marriage(s)?
Bp, sory took a while to respond but things are hecdick around here. But, what are you talking about? How did you get to this? I was not putting anyone down. I have met some amazing girls. I have learned a tremendous amount, and grown so much just from dating certain girls. They have top notch middos, always looking to help out another and have worked on growing in their yidishkiet in remarkable ways. Hashem gave boys their maalos and girls their own. I never meant to put anyone down, or said that anyone is more accomplished than anyone. Please reread my posts.
And also, you said the girls ”you are dating are doing just the same”, I am just curious, where are the girls that are learning from 9:30 to 6:00?
BY93, first chill out. Second, I prefaced my first comment that anyone not in the Parsha should not be allowed to post on this thread. The reason is because trust me you do not get the whole picture (no pun intended) till you are actually are involved. I also thought I knew everything before but trust me even though I had sib’s older than me married you don’t really understand. I remember trying to convince my brother for so long that he totally missed the boat on a certain aspect when he was dating, I now realize how right he was.
But your point with the Barby was cute anyway. . .
PBA- ur right- it isn’t pretzuis but some of them can’t CHAS VSHALOM look at a girl in the street or their sisters friend but a picture is different?
YG1- i’d like to know wat ur definition of shtark is becaose just because someone learns all day doesn’t mean he internalizzes torah and mitzvos- and just to let you know it is not an argument between pretty and not- i know many pretty people who feel that pix should not be given-(including me! lol!) but as it says “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”
new3thescene- ur right when i first wrote i was angered by wat was written here- now i am not acting on anger- maybe ur right- maybe i don’t understand! but i know many of my older friends in the “Parsha” feel that way so i was not only voicing my opinion but that of many! and thanx i thought the barbie thing was cute too- and btw if any guy is getting pix just to look at a girl- you don’t have to do it thru shidduchim and stir up the world- there are other ways to look at girls- go pick up a magazine- not that i’m saying you should… but if thats wat u want…
No guy is getting pictures just to look at a girl. He can just go on a date and look at her for hours.
By94; Firstly thanks for the upgrade to new3. . .
Second, I am very impressed at your ability to take a step back and realize you may not be right on target. It is a middah that will help you tremendously through life. (Am I sounding like a Rebetzin?)
Thirdly, your right I understand that there are girls that feel the way you described, which is why I explained in my first post why some of us boys ask nicely if a picture can please be included. You can please go back to my original post to recap. Now that you realize the flip side of the coin, and possibly realize that we are not just doing it for no reason. Rather, just practically it makes sense and can save hrs and hrs of time plus countless emotions, its up to the person involved to decide. She is more than welcome to say no I’m not comfortable. It’s than up to him to decide to research further. But people lie so badly by information, its scary. You cant blame some of us (including myself) that don’t want to ‘just give it a shot’ anymore.
You are definitively right about the shtark point. There are many guys that learn all day but do not really internalize it. I see this day in and day out, it’s a real petty.
And about your last point, I apologize but you are really off. I have unlimited internet access because I need it for college work. Honestly, do you really think I need that I need an 8*6 picture of a bais yaakov girl to fuel my Yetzer Harah? We aren’t malachim, but please babies we certainly aren’t. As you said, unfortunately there are no shortages of fuel out there. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a while. And I know the same is with all guys as all my friends are in the market so I know the scoop.
And lastly, I think the American Girl Dolls are much more sophisticated than Barbie. You cannot compare the elegance. I hope I have shed a flicker of clarity in your oblivion.
Most guys i know check out the girl the second that she walks into the room. before you can blink we have decided either DOA or potential… Picture can never hurt…. Well, actually one did, but I think it was fake.. Or at least I hope so….
The point I am trying to say is that the hashkafos of the shtark yeshivos is that you have to be attracted to her. And the bochurim usually internalize that. I probably didn’t stress this enough but that doesn’t mean that she has to have a supermodels body etc. None of the guys I know requires it. As you said, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. But that beauty still has to be in his eyes.
I still think this is an argument between the attractive vs the unattractive. Keep in mind that when you consider you’re friends pretty it doesn’t mean guys do. also keep in mind that apparently you don;t seem to know this integral fact that it’s ok for looks to matter (even for a ben torah) so why should you;re friends who probably went to the same bais yaakov (and were taught the same hashkafos) as you.
workandlearn
All guys are like that. Its not a Chisaron, its how guys are hard wired. Anyone who tries to deny it, is just lying.
Sacrilege
Finally we can agree on something again lol! Many girls try to lie to themselves or just don’t get reality. We were created this way for a reason. There’s also a reason why the female body was created to be attractive and that females are more beautiful than males. Men are wired to be visual beings. We see things and size it up instantly. Women work differently and looks are much less important. I guess you can say women have more depth perception (binah) and look past the surface to see what’s really there. Women focus on how this person makes me feel as opposed to oh they look nice. That’s not to say men can’t and don’t have that capacity, its just that it isn’t our primary nature and requires a little work for us to try and see past the facade and get into the emotional realm.
WIY
This is becoming more than I can handle… lol
apushteayid,
Seforim are pretty clear on the matter. But regardless of what fulfillment he may have had, I doubt all of his 1,000 wives had what you could call fulfilling marriage.
Cargo ships indeed 🙂
I think that is important for a boy to find his wife attractive. Having said that, what boys are looking for today is not simply attractive, they are looking for perfection. Where does this come from? It is obvious that these ideas of “perfection” do not come from jewish sources, but rather from the ideas of the goyim.
A boy can be sufficiently attracted to a girl who is a size 10 (gasp!)
Perfection? I never knew anyone who was looking for perfection. Most guys get married, and most of their wives are not supermodels.
Popa and sacrilige-
I am not discussing particular people, but rather the concept of beauty in general.
Where did Jewsih boys learn that a size 8 is too fat?
Where did they learn that a girl must look like a supermodel, or else she is not worthy of his precious time?
I can assure you these concepts did not originate within the Yeshiva world.
If anyone has ever read any goyish fashion or beauty magazines (and I’m not saying you should…)you can see exactly where these ideas came from.
Like I said before, its important to look good and attractive, but supermodel perfection is not what is meant by that
Squeak. I didnt ask how the wives felt 🙂
Pumper
It comes from the mommies and sisters who are obsessed with weight and looking good who read those fashion magazines or any womens non Jewish magazine for that matter…
Size 8 is unhealthy. For size 8 to be a healthy weight, you would need to be at about 7 feet tall.
squeak: Does this imply I’m single? It at least implies that if I’m married my wife either has a sense of humor, is a size 2, or doesn’t know my username.
I pick sense of humor as the most likely based on what I’m presenting.
pumper/WIY
Non-Jews are so much more receptive to girls who arent a size 0.
The Frum world has its own intense obsession/fascination with extremely skinny girls.
This is a fact not an opinion.
Not every comment has underlying implications.
it is an opinion not a fact
some in the frum world have such a fascination..that is a fact
80
Tomato Tomahto
Heres a photo story for you. A girl passed along a picture of her grandmother when the shadchan asked for a photo. She said, this is what I will look like in 60 years, be’h, if he wont want me in 60 years, I dont want him now! 🙂
Regarding checking the girl out when she walks in…
Guys, please. Not so obvious! My friends have told me about guys who stare at them for a REALLY long time. By all means, check her out, just please be a little more discrete about it.
The term “check her out” is very unbecoming of people in the “yeshiva world”.
if someone stared at me for a long time i’d be creeped out regardless if its the girl or the boy.
Heres a photo story for you. A girl passed along a picture of her grandmother when the shadchan asked for a photo. She said, this is what I will look like in 60 years, be’h, if he wont want me in 60 years, I dont want him now! 🙂
So the guy picked her up, brought her to a nursing home and let her hang out with his grandfather for a few hours.
New2the scene –
I did go back and re-read your posts (plus the new ones)
You are not the target of my anger. In fact, you and I are on the same side of this issue. The boys I have issue with are the ones that are not taking the responsibilites of earing a living as seroiusly as the girls in shidduchim are. Therefore, they should not be complaining.
You, on the other hand, are taking your future responsibilites VERY serously, and while that does not give you a licence to complain (Don’t feel bad, I don’t have one either) more of your focus should be on who the person is, and less about what does she look like.
ON the whole, girls in shidduchim are very presentable. Focus on the person, not the packaging.
Oylam:
The main thing that is checked out now is the size of the bank account.
Jail is also good, as we can assume Cayman Islands.
If you don’t have those (Chas V’Shalom), then you might need a picture.
But at that point, you lost the top 20% of Bochrim anyway.
i did
cshapiro
Too true no denying that. (sorry for the delay in answering)
When I get a proposal I used to look at the picture first and go from there. Now i look at the whole ‘picture’ first and if it’s still noigeah then I will take a peek. 5’9 and overweight, I wouldn’t have b’chlal listened to if I wouldn’t have seen the picture first.
Hada:
After you saw the 5’9″ overweight it was better?
popa…..if someone is big….theres more to love :))
Excellent bp, now with your approval I will only go out with girls size 0-2 instead of my last hakpadah of below 4.
OK OK!!! I’m just joking around. . .
But, if a guy is seriously using his learning time properly then I respect him just as much, and if not more than myself doing learning and college simultaniously.
I guess it depends on what your ideals in life are.
I understand very clearly and believe that learning is what keeps the world going, and is what the world stands on. It sounds that you believe that earning money is more important. I respect your opinion but I beg to differ.
There are plenty of girls that have good jobs and are extremely happy to be the breadwinners. I personally do not wish to live such a lifestyle and so I’m in college part time, but what’s wrong with a guy that does?
And no, I’m not naive. I know there are plenty of guys that are fakers. I’m not talking about them.
Thus being so, I personally don’t understand how you believe that one who is learning must compromise on looks. Did I read you right?
if someone is big….theres more to love
Or hate. 🙁
popa:
After I saw the picture I was willing to meet. 🙂
whats up with the negative attitude popa?? u seem very cynical, what does ur shrink say about that??
That wasn’t such a bad comment. Was it?
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