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“Posing” for a photograph is almost the same thing as altering it later. Neither is the natural setting and thus the emes. In fact, photography itself is problematic from a halachic point of view. Some G’dolim refused to be photographed due to “avoda zora” and other issues with it.
Insofar as dress codes and “uniforms” are concerned, Bnei Torah and Jews have always dressed differently than society at large. And we always had a limited uniform that we conformed to. It varied somewhat, but it was never anything goes. The Sfardim had a different uniform than the Ashkenazim, who had a different uniform than the Yemenites, etc. Just as, l’havdil, each branch of a military (Army, Navy, Air Force) each have their own distinct uniform.
If an officer of the U.S. Navy decided that instead of the mandatory dress blue uniform consisting of a navy blue suit coat, trousers, and white shirt he will substitute the white shirt with a blue shirt and refuses to any longer wear a white shirt, he will be court maritaled, probably incarcerated and dishonorably discharged.
Are we yidden any less?
I am not a halachic authority so I will only respond with my personal feelings. It’s very wrong if the purpose is gain monetary benefit. It’s just as wrong if the purpose is to make prospective students think that the yeshiva is different than what it actually is. It’s wrong even if the purpose is just to improve the yeshiva’s PR, because whatever the reason, a picture is intended to convey a visual fact that’s there when the picture was taken. By altering the picture you are essentially creating a picture that lies. Do that in a court of law without indicating that it was altered and you can go to jail.
Has anyone thought about how the boy whose shirt color was altered would feel? People look to see if they know anyone in the picture or if they are in it when it is sent from a familiar setting/yeshiva/organization. He is being told, by photoshopping the picture, that he is “not ok” and his style of dress is wrong for the school. If the yeshiva feels this way, an official dress code should be in place and/or he should not be accepted. I am not commenting on the blue shirt/white shirt debate, but rather the perspective of the yeshiva and their desire to photoshop pictures.
(continuation: sorry about the misplaced “Send.”)
instead of wire-framed glasses. This sort of thing is guaranteed to turn people off. I can’t tell you the heartache I’ve seen with friends who have had a child “off the derech” and in a lot of cases it starts with a blue shirt. The R’Y comes down on the boy, who had no idea he was committing such a heinous aveirah. So, he figures, why shouldn’t I commit more if I’m going to get put in herem anyway?
A clean blue shirt is just as kavodik – if it’s clean and pressed.
MM: Well said. One should conform if they are in the army, as those are The Rules; follow or leave. Same thing for a bochur in yeshiva, but no one has been able to tell me if this is a dress code or not (or if he was a member of the yeshiva)!?
Midwest2- well said! Wearing a colored shirt is not a sign of “going off the derech” or either is wearing a different type of jacket, hat or yalmuka. They have just chosen a different derech but as I learned in school a long time ago- when moshiach comes all of bnei yisrael will sit in a circle, none closer than the rest, around the shechina and state “this is my Hashem”. No matter how they look, or what shul they go to, they are all part of “the servants of Hashem”.
White shirts are not kavodik at all if they are sloppy, messy, dirty or in need of a very good pressing. If i had to say what was more kavodik, a messy white shirt or a clean and neat blue shirt, I’d pick the blue one in a second! Yidden need to look presentable and neat as the rest of the world looks at them. “Look at those slobs… those yeshiva bochurim look disgustingly dirty- have they showered in the last month?” and yes- I have heard people comment about frum people’s looks. From the frum to the frei to goyim, yes they do look and they do care.
“Posing” for a photograph is almost the same thing as altering it later. Neither is the natural setting and thus the emes.
So, are you saying that every chosson, kallah and bar-mitzvah boy who poses for pictures is engaged in sheker?
Yes there is also an element of “sheker” in any pose, as compared to the journalistic photographic capturing of an event…80
If an officer of the U.S. Navy decided that instead of the mandatory dress blue uniform consisting of a navy blue suit coat, trousers, and white shirt he will substitute the white shirt with a blue shirt and refuses to any longer wear a white shirt, he will be court maritaled, probably incarcerated and dishonorably discharged.
Are we yidden any less?
Not less, but different. For all the use of terms such as “Hashem’s Army” and the like, the fact remains that Yiddishkeit (or at least our present practice of it) is not martial in nature. In other words, the analogy is a bad one.
The Wolf
The first part of my last post seems to have gotten lost in cyberspace, so:
Recap:
What if the boy didn’t have a clean white shirt that day and thought it was more important to be in bais medrash learning than in the laundromat? What if he didn’t have enough white shirts to last the week and his mother had just had a baby and couldn’t do his shirts for him? It’s premature to conclude he was making any ideological statements simply from seeing him in a blue shirt. As long as the shirt was clean and presentable, and not neon-orange, how could it disrupt the learning in the bais medrash?
The “dress code” hasn’t just mandated “white and black” – it also informally decides what type of shirt, what type of hat, etc., and you’d better have the money to buy them or face social consequences. Many years ago The Jewish Observer had an article written by the father of a little boy who was ostracized in school because he only had plastic-framed glasses instead of wire-framed ones.
Havesomeseichel,
Do you think that someone who wears a wrinkled white shirt will automatically have a pressed neat shirt if it is blue? The same way a person can wear a blue shirt, he can wear a white shirt if that is what everyone in the yeshiva is doing. (No, do not kick him out, or belittle the person, just be aware that he is making a statement by dressig differently)
Why don’t we turn it around and compare a pressed white shirt and dark dress slacks and leather shoes as compared to a grungy t-shirt, ripped faded jeans and flip flops?
It seems that it is much more likely that a person who dresses down will wear less b’kovodik clothing then they would when dressed up. Look at so many respectable buisnessman who wear expesive suits and clothing yet when they dress down will wear clothing as described above.
If you have issues with someone looking slobby, it is most likely that the person is not neat and not that wearing a white shirt make him look like a slob.
As far as the fellow in the picture feeling bad, it is an old picture that was printed many times with the blue shirt. The bochur in the picture may even have grey hair at this point, that is how old the picture is. I hardly think he cares, if he even knows. But I may not be a sensitive as you.
Midwest 2, I have a very difficult time believing your story that “in a lot of cases it starts with a blue shirt. The R’Y comes down on the boy, who had no idea he was committing such a heinous aveirah. So, he figures, why shouldn’t I commit more if I’m going to get put in herem anyway?”. The truth is very likely the opposite, that the child started wearing different clothing than the others as a sign of rebellion or to excluded from the rest of his classmates.
Jose-
I dont think that if someone wears a wrinkled white shirt, their blue shirt will be neatly pressed. I am just saying that we shouldnt categorize people as being “less frum” or worse off because of their blue shirt. I am just saying that people who dress neater should be praised, rather than white shirt/blue shirt. I dont care what they wear as long as it is neat and presentable (up to a point. T-shirts and blue jeans can be neatly ironed but that, by no one’s standards, is professional dress.)
Wearing a blue shirt is not “dressing down” as many business people wear blue shirts, rather than white. Look at many professionals, or if you dont know any, look in at fancy stores. many times the blue shirts cost more than the white ones! Many suits are shown in stores with colored shirts, rather than white. White does not equal fancy, respectable ect. Dressing down means a sloppy look, a casual (non suit) attire, or vacation clothes.
Wolfish, A jew wears the jewish uniform (which like someone mentioned, differs based upon local customs.)
The Jewish “uniform” may really be the dress of an American businessman of the 50s, a Russian Cossack, or a Polish nobleman. Throw in the Borsolino and you have an Italian monk. What does any of this have to do with being Jewish?
Mezonos Maven wrote:
” Insofar as dress codes and “uniforms” are concerned, Bnei Torah and Jews have always dressed differently than society at large. And we always had a limited uniform that we conformed to. “
if it’s emes and sheker we are worried about … this statement is simply sheker. Absolutely untrue and there are hundreds if not thousands of pictures to prove it. a litvish yeshiva student in many pre-war European yeshivos were clean shaven and wore stylish suits and hats. when walking in the street they fit right in with the general crowd.
i also find it fascinating that in this entire conversation regarding uniform no one has mentioned the only real uniforms that we have, as ordered by the commander in chief – tzitzis & tefilin. all the rest are social norms that change. When i went to one of the big yeshivos in NY they didnt allow wire frame glasses. 5 years later the roshei yeshiva were wearing them.
Let’s stop obsessing on the tafel.
BTW – for all those who proclaim themselves soldiers in the army of hashem based on their “levush”. I’m curious if you have made the effort and spent the time to fully know the language that Hashem uses to command his army. While we’re squabbling about the color of the shirt, most yeshiva guys don’t know the difference between a Hebrew word in binyan kal v.s. binyan hif’il. This difference gives an an entirely different meaning to the word. Pretty hard to be a soldier in the army, if you barely understand what the commander in chief is saying.
Attention ! Get back to basics !
To Volvie: you say based on local customs. How monolithic is any one locality? Do you mean as per the individual yeshiva?
If so, yeshivos may send the dress code info to the parents but do they post it on the yeshiva doors, i.e. don’t come in if you’re not wearing a white shirt, etc.?
Torah is a morasha to the entire kehillas Yaakov, when I last checked.
monolithic – wow, do you work for Artscroll? 😉
And no they don’t send the dress code to the parents rather before enlisting into a Yeshiva you should have done a lot of painstaking research to find out that that is the best place for you/ your son to shteig and will therefore know exactly if it’s the norm there to come in with a coloured shirt.
And obviously even a white shirted yeshiva is not gonna kick out any blue shirts, come on, rather a blue shirt will feel uncomfortable (hopefully) surrounded by white shirted yeshivish looking guys…I can’t see a blue shirt wanting to come to a white shirted yeshiva anyways…
Yitzy99,
What you are missing is that it is the uniform of the yeshiva today, it is irrelevant as to where you posit it came from. You are just trying to confound the issue.
Norman,
Learning the differences between binyan kal and binyan hi’fil does not change the fact that by dressing differently from the rest of the group, you are seperating your self from that group, be it consciously or sub-consciously. You want to discuss learning additional dikduk, fine, but that does not change the issue at hand.
Tzippi,
No one is excluding these people from Torah and invalidating them. The issue is are you identifying with a group and being part of it or do you wish to stand seperate and apart. The fact is that the norm, as accepted by the yeshiva as whole in many yeshivos is to wear white shirts. That is how the talmidim theselves dress. In most cases that I am aware of, from my own years in yeshiva as wells as my sons’ and nephews there is no letter that goes out and says wear white shirts, or we reccomend wearing such, rather, it is understood that the white shirt is the de facto uniform of yeshiva leit in those yeshivos.
There are yeshivas that are not that way and they too are wonderful yeshivos, this is one of the factors that go into selecting a yeshiva. NO not white shirt or not, rather will I be part of that group or will I chose to be outwardly and visibly different from the group by design.
To notiallmr
Yes, yeshivos do send dress code info.
And my point was, someone who comes in off the streets, say is visiting for a simcha, or has time in the late afternoon, etc. shouldn’t feel welcomed because he’s not in levush, even if he’s tucked in and respectable enough to be working in an office somewhere?
P.S. I don’t work for Artscroll, I just have a decent vocabulary.
I know of a baalbos who spent a good few years in kollel who had to start dressing down at work due to every day being casual day (wearing striped or colored shirts is still considered fairly dressed up but it’s as casual as he’ll go). He would davka learn with his kids at night in their yeshiva in his work shirt so that they would never feel disenfranchised should they opt out of the uniform.
noitallmr
you wrote:
And obviously even a white shirted yeshiva is not gonna kick out any blue shirts, come on, rather a blue shirt will feel uncomfortable (hopefully) surrounded by white shirted yeshivish looking guys…I can’t see a blue shirt wanting to come to a white shirted yeshiva anyways…
(emphasis mine)
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To say that a blue shirted bochur should hopefully feel uncomfortable is beyond my reasonableness. it is complete nonsense!
what if the more wise and understanding boy buys him a few white shirts and he still wears a blue shirt, should the others boys point and laugh when he walks by.
And if he still doesn’t get it, should other boys refuse to learn with him so that his taste in clothing doesn’t negatively impact them. should they not sit with him during meals or trip him when he walks by carrying his tray of food? Just how far should they take it to ensure his ultimate uncomfortableness?
To address the original question:
Not enough information was given to form a conclusion.
-Was there an attempt to deceive?
-Could a false impression have been made, even inadvertently?
-Did the alterations change the entire meaning/context of the picture?
-Was there a false portrayal of the number of people in the yeshiva?
A Google search brought up the original picture and its subsequent alteration.
The yeshiva is very well-known.
Here are the facts.
1) The picture was taken from above the bais medrash using a fisheye wide-angle lens. No individual is recognizable.
3) I would estimate there are about eighty tables in the photo with all but two or three occupied by learners.
5) The blue shirt is in the left foreground.
6) The altered table is in the right foreground.
7) There are a couple of empty tables in the left background that were left unaltered.
Based on my experience as an amateur photographer and videographer, here are my conclusions:
-A tempest in a teapot.
-Much ado about nothing.
-Making mountains out of anthills (not even molehills).
Is it also misrepresenting the Yeshiva that the Mashgiach shown in the picture was niftar nearly four years ago? Would it be more or less deceitful to crop him out?
As ICOT said,
Hacer una tempestad en un vaso de agua
Fare una tempesta in un bicchiere d’aqua
???? ???? ???? ???
The yeshiva meant nothing by this. True, it would have been best for them to take a new picture, but that’s not the point here. This is just about a bunch of bloggers looking for a fight with the yeshivish crowd.
This is just about a bunch of bloggers looking for a fight with the yeshivish crowd.
squeak, you have a gift. seeing what is going on backstage.
feivel,
I could only have learned that from you. Thank you. Your “kurtz und scharf” posts are a beacon.
we have gone too far off the OP and the questions posed.
EDITED
***unofficiallyCLOSED***
Hey 72, you mind if I have a shot at closing this thread? Haven’t had a chance to do that yet…
Thanks 🙂
This thread is officially CLOSED
Hey, this is fun!
26 It’s still open!
thanks 80, I just realized it :O
I think you need a little refresher course on topic closing…80
80, you should not be posting in a thread after it’s closed! That’s cheating!
If you would have closed it PROPERLY like I taught you, I wouldn’t be able to post in it…80
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