PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane

Daniela, you’re upset that I even mentioned Bat Ayin, on a thread that was obviously a joke (and not started by a 14-year old at all)? I’m sure it’s not for everyone (as I suggested in my initial post on that thread), but I have no reason to believe that Bay Ayin is so problematic that it shouldn’t ever be mentioned on the Internet. Certainly, people should thoroughly investigate an institution before they go there. I never said otherwise.

ah, so it’s a public relations issue. I wonder if you people feel embarrassed that the Torah commands us something you find absurd (“what’s with this difficult concept of tuma, anyway”). If so, please by all means do whatever you see fit, the world is wide and there’s all sort of people including the frei, the reforms etc, just please don’t mislead others by falsely suggesting it is a “stringency”.

Why is this only a problem in Israel?

Why isnt a problem in NY

There are quite a few cemetaries in Queens near LaGaurdia Airport and the airplanes go over them

There might be others elsewhere as well.

I’m not quite sure why i’m responding here.

It’s absolutely astounding how ignorant people are to basic tumah v’tahara issues.

1- as said before Tumah goes up to the Raki’ah (why some people think it stops at the clouds , not quite sure

2- the idea that it cant have a hole is false. 2a- Mukaf Tzamid Pesil can have holes, it’s a common misconception that it cant

2b – thats not even (IMHO) the issue here

3- the issue as discussed in MANY mishnayot in Ohalot is that something which is not mekabl tumah is Chotzetz befnei Hatumah

A hole if smaller then a tefach will not transmit tumah into the bag

4-plastic since it was not around at the time of the gemara is a mechloket achronim (similar to the tevilat kelim issue) if it’s mekabel tumah. the Kohanim that are prepared get something that is made out of something that definitly isn;t mekabel tumah

regardless i’m assuming he relies on a sfek sfeka for the plastic

I have no doubt that this individual was doing what he was told was right. That said, I’m an observant person and seeing this makes me question whether I should be less observant. Honestly. There is no way that Hashem intends us to wrap ourselves in plastic bags when we travel on airplanes.

Aside from causing us to be the object of ridicule amongst the nations to whom we are meant to be light, wrapping yourself tightly in plastic needlessly endangers your own life and also those of others around you, in the event of an air emergency. This itself is against halacha and should remove the plastic as a viable solution to the problem this man was trying to solve.

I am not as learned in our texts as many of the other posters…and while that is nothing to brag about, in this case it gives me enough distance to suggest we step back from the legalistic minutiae to realize what even we moderately learned individuals can see. That a cohen sealing himself in plastic during a flight is a bad idea all around.

P.S. Been on many flights out of NYC with haredeim flying over the many Jewish cemeteries near JFK and never once saw something like this.

Zaidy: That’s why this is a joke. Any moving Ohel is an Ohel Zaruk. If the bag works, then the plane works. And if the plane doesn’t work, then the bag doesn’t work. Also, the concept of Tzamid Pasil doesn’t apply here at all. Whoever mentioned that doesn’t know much about Tumah and Taharah.

I have only one word to say on this entire debate.

PHOTOSHOP!!!!

Midwesterner no one could dream up such a thing to photoshop its so weird that it has to be real.

Definition of I Made things up

I created a work of fiction and passed it to Haaretz, the Gothimist , All the “anti-Semeic ” Blogs and the many other posters who who also seemed to think it was based on a Tshuva by Rav Elyshiv (or maybe his son as suggested)

I am so amazing, Its amazing all the falsehoods one anonymous poster can come up with on a blog

Sam, a Tzamid Passil is with any substance that is Chotzetz from Tuma. Plastic is not a Keli, it might be Pshutei Keili, if it was a sheet and not a bag, and it might not be Mekabel Tuma at all, like Limey said.

The question I have is that an Ohel Zaruk is not an Ohel. We know this by a bird carrying Tuma, that it is not Maahil. Why don’t we apply the same to the Kohen himself, that he is not being Maahil on the Tuma.

As far as other places, this problem is only where we know for a fact that he is flying directly over Jewish graves.

Ad Larakiya is a good theorhetical discussion, sofar. There isn’t much to go by so we can’t really be Meikel with Dimyonos (???? ???? ????? ???? ????). But we can have fun speculating if the planet has a planetary Techum, perhaps a Mehalech of 500 years. This is 10 Parsa a day multiplied by 365*500. That’s 7,300,000 Mil, whatever that comes out to.

Another possibility is as long as you feel the pull of Earth’s gravity. Or perhaps from when you start to see the world as a Kadur. Maybe we can draw the line at the level where the rocket has to come at the critical angle, since that is like a layer, the Kipa.

SJ:

“There is little that justifies this kind of insanity.”

See, us crazy ultra-Orthodox Jews believe in this thing called “halacha”, which we follow no matter what. However, there are other streams of so-called-Judaism may deviate from the halacha if they deside it looks “insane”; try Reform.

“I don’t buy Kanievsky’s psak at all, it’s stringent for the sake of being stringent.”

Mods, don’t you think that accusing “Kanievsky” of completely making up halachos is well over the line of an acceptable comment?

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/photo-orthodox-jewish-man-covers-himself-in-plastic-bag-on-plane#post-455677

pou_bear:

“DaasYochid – I said turned off. The issur of creating a chillul Hashem is not only amongst non-Jews , its amongst your fellow brethren as well. The reason why I am saying this is because many times we have to do things that non-jews think are completely absurd and look down at us for(i.e.bris mila, davening in public)”

So according to your definition of Chillul Hashem (which I’d love to see a source for, by the way), why isn’t bris mila and davening indeed a Chillul Hashem?

“but in this case , it goes both ways and is obviously not halacha.”

Says you. Apparently, R’ Elyashiv disagrees.

yytz:

“I’m sure there are Jews who are very close to accepting the truth of Orthodoxy and becoming complete ba’alei teshuvah, who see something like this (or some other ultra-machmir practice), and get turned off for good.”

First of all, basing your opinion entirely on something that you merely assume is true does not make for a very convincing argument. (The same goes for your previous statement “I find it hard to believe no major poskim would find grounds for leniency”.)

Secondly, we do not believe in whitewashing Judaism for the sake of PR. Our job is to keep the Halacha as best as we can, not to change it to make it palatable to the world.

michaelw:

“I have no doubt that this individual was doing what he was told was right. That said, I’m an observant person and seeing this makes me question whether I should be less observant. Honestly. There is no way that Hashem intends us to wrap ourselves in plastic bags when we travel on airplanes.”

If you’ll excuse me for being so blunt, when did Hashem tell you exactly what He does and doesn’t want?

“Aside from causing us to be the object of ridicule amongst the nations to whom we are meant to be light”

Would you similarly advocate that we drop our objections to homosexuality, abortion, etc. due to the nations’ ridicule?

zdad:

“So why is it a problem in Israel , but not a problem at LaGaurdia Airport, Plenty of Charedim use LaGauadia Airport (It might be a problem at JFK too, but im not sure) .”

According to this shita, it very well might be. However, Chareidim are not made in molds and are not necessarily in lockstep on every issue; some follow other shittos.

@KolHaolam 13m

ISRAEL: El Al tells Gothamist a viral pic showing Kohen

wrapped in plastic on a plane is 10 yrs old & El Al no

longer flies over cemeteries.

An example is the principle of bending rules when not doing so puts Torah to ridicule.

You’re assuming that there exists a legitimate loophole for Kohanim to fly over a cemetary. As a hedyot, you shouldn’t be doing that.

Kohanim (even those without a shtar yichus) are proscribed from entering or passing over a cemetary even if they are previously tamei.

ZD,

It’s also possible that this is a legitimate solution.

why is the Cohen, when he is Zaruk, considered Maahil?

Who says he is? He just needs something to be matzil him from the tum’ah of the beis hakvoros.

The Kohen who flew in a bag was instructed by his Rav Rav Yosef Bruk – Rosh Yeshiva Netivot Olam

he is a former IDF Air Force officer and a B T

When one sits in a Succah when its Pouring, Its considered to be a Chassid Shoteh. So one doesnt have to go to such extremities to be a Chassid Shoteh

Many here do think this is a Chilul hashem are saying this man is a Chassid Shoteh. Its certainly within Halacha to say someone is a Chassid Shoteh especially in a case where most agree this was a little extreme

There are cases in halahcha where we are don plastic as k’ma she’eino, and the case of Eruvin 31 for the cemetery itself is mukaf mehitzot, lav davka a top or a bottom, and not hermetically sealed. Could be that is so he is not maahil to the sides, and it would not work in a bais hapras. Whether this chaver was right or wrong, he was mezake the oilam to do some iyyun on the daf. Close to BGA there is the Givat shaul cemetery, which is big, and Yarkon which is tremendous. We can also count on some bodies in the Hiriya dump, as we have here, mobsters that anyone could be proud of, nusach Meyer Lansky. In NY, I am nearly positive that some flight paths of JFK pass over Beth David and Montefiore. This is not a new issue, and this ‘psak apparently is. Why?

This is not a new issue, and this ‘psak apparently is. Why?

The issue is supposed to be taken care of, as El Al now avoids cemetaries in their flight plans. It’s not a new p’sak or eitzah. I know about this for years; I know someone who did it.

DY, The Cohen becomes Taamei through being Maahil, which is a kind of Magga. If he is not being Maahil on the Kever how does he become Tamei through it?

Zdad, Chosid mean someone doing something that is not the Din. Chosid Shotte is someone doing more than the Din requires while losing out what he is required. Yarei Shamayim is someone who follows Halacha, to the T. There is no such title as Yarei Shamayim Shotte, but there is a title as Boor Yerei Chet, which is someone who doesn’t know the Halacha.

Calling something extreme doesn’t make it unnecessary. Besides, if you think about it, many Halachos are extreme, it’s just that you are used to them. Isn’t it extreme to build a Succah and eat (and sleep) there for seven days? You wouldn’t refrain from putting on Tefillin if you are on a 24 hour flight — which can make headlines. Hilchos Nida are really exreme stuff and so is Shabbos.

Those jokes about him having some highly contagious disease, what if they were true? Would it also be extreme or I’m sure you can find some undergraduate doctor that theorized that the low pressure of the cabin will inhibit the bacteria from flowing about.

It’s not like there’s a mitzva to wear a bag. A situation came up where this was the only viable solution. Funny situations bring funnier solutions. What if you were invited to a dinner with the queen and they change seats for every course, so that you get to meat as many peole as possible, but since you keep Kosher and you had to bring along your own dishes you land up walking around the hall carrying dishes? Chillel Hashem or Kiddush Hashem?

There is no Mitzva to carry dishes, but a funny situation came up and tested you. Even though it is embarrassing, you gotta do what you gotta do.

I wear a kipa on this head of mine.

I daven Mincha at the proper time.

and by Havdalah in my pockets I put wine

I shake a lulav, which my neighbors think insane

I like to bury my gefilte fish in chrein

because the Torah tells me to I do that too,

I do the strangest things a man could ever do,

Oh there are times when I where sneakers with my suit

and I must confess that it looks rather cute

‘Cause I am a Jew I do that too.

Oh once a year I twirl a chicken over my head

because the Torah tells me to I do that too,

I do the strangest things a man could ever do,

Oh, once a month I go outside and bless the moon

and once a year I have to eat all afternoon

and then eat matzah till I have no strength to chew

then I eat horseradish until I am turning blue

because the Torah tells me to I do that too,

I do the strangest things a man could ever do.

by Country Yossi

It is interesting that the photo is about 10 years old, in those days there was the 2nd intifada and disruption to air traffic. Cyprus air space and Larnaca airport were highly overcrowded as well (stopover and refueling for foreign airlines that still flied to TLV were moved there) which had a domino effect in addition to the route modifications for security reasons.

My guess is that there is no problem elsewhere, because there are not that many Jewish cemeteries which are close to approach corridors, El Al probably avoids them as policy, and in the very rare case an observant Cohen is flying another airline at an airport where this is a concern (some mentioned La Guardia, which sounds possible) he will ask before check-in. Personnel are helpful with these issues, why shouldn’t they be helpful to a paying customer? Ground desk is there to help passengers give away more money to the airline, why should they not assist him and if requested, reschedule him, no matter how wierd his reasons?

I would think possibly this passenger did not think of the problem (a problem likely connected to disruption in Israeli airspace which was a constant of 2002-2003) and boarded the flight, realizing the problem after takeoff, maybe while looking at the flight route on the entertainment screen. At that point perhaps he did not know what to do and may have asked staff in the cabin, and the cockpit called the ground on his behalf, relayed the answer to the passenger, and bagged himself he got.

Those of us who fly regularly see all sort of wierd people doing wierd things, so many of them that wierdness hardly gets noticed. What I deduce from this fact, is that the world is huge and populated by many different people with different outlooks. What others deduce is that everyone has a right to be themselves, except for the “ghetto jews” who give a bad name to (insert here whatever you prefer). I can’t accept this. Did he made himself ridiculous? I don’t think he did, but – whatever – people are welcome to think so, if they must. Did he make someone else ridiculous? Someone else! Seems to me that statement is ridiculous, actually, too ridiculous to be debated.

TKND: There are several times in Gemara and Poskim where Chumros are to be avoided because it looks like Kucha V’hitula. (The first one that comes to mind is a Sha’ar Hatziyun that says that one should keep all 5 Inuyim on a minor fast if it’s not a Sha’as Shalom in the world, but to still wear shoes because that looks like a mockery.)

Sam, why is this a chumra?

Sam2, then it’s a kula!