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…all I have to say is this: what does “PIT” mean?
Wisey – so am I correct in understanding that you are saying that it is better not to ask? Then how does one know they are right?
Your question genuinely should NEVER have been asked – asking people to begin a process of justifying evil behavior.
Wisey- You have gone tooooooo far by your outrageous comment equating Hashem as being Torah- has v sholom. The Torah was created by Hashem. It is not incorrect to say it (the Torah) will cease to exist- after all, after Mashiah, it will not be followed in the same way for a start.
ready now – “Your question genuinely should NEVER have been asked.”
That is my question, should I? Thanks for answering.
Behavior can be absolutely evil, but can people? Personally, I think that a perfectly bad person is exactly as common as a perfectly good one; I’ve never met either.
Frum,
You think those guys don’t think? Listen to them. They are completely convinced that they are right, after arguing about it. Bottom line, you usually think what you want to think. We do it and they do it. You look for arguments that support you, and toss or ignore those that don’t.
We aren’t Amish and don’t advocate Rumspringa. We are Mechanech our children (we try to, at least) with a very strong foundation in Emuna. It’s not up to you to choose.
Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon writes that although it is important to understand the arguments, it is equally important to accept what you agreed to. Otherwise, you will have a different faith every day, and you’d be coming back, and switching between, religions twice a day.
From our comfortable pirch we do mull over some arguments and perhaps proofs. We feel moral and sensible. On the other hand I don’t think a person who cares about morality can justly make his life’s goal killing men women and children.
ReadyNow,
Yisroel V’Oraisa V’Kudsha Brich Hu Chad Hu.
Frumnotyeshivish
Rav Dessler was saying that from the perspective of bechira which is something that is between Hashem and man and no human knows or can know where any other persons bechira is holding so he may not be held responsible in Hashems eyes. However in a court of law both Beis Din or a non Jewish court there is an obligation to try him and punish him accordingly. Nobody can walk into beis din and say sorry, this was below my nekudas habechira.
One of many
PIT is PARTNER IN TORAH google it.
Ahaaaa…
I did google it – I got “Programmable Interval Timer,” “Process Improvement Team,” “Passive Immune Thrombocytopenia”…
Our bodies are NOT Hashem – it is our neshamas that are part of Hashem.
However someone who says that bodies are Hashem would not be at all correct to say that. Anything created cannot be eternal.
The Torah was a recent creation by Hashem. The Torah is not Hashem.
Not one and the same!
WIY – Who is talking about bes din (shel mata/court)?
Haleivi – “They are completely convinced that they are right, after arguing about it.” Agreed. Always. Me too. Everyone’s wrong sometimes. Now what?
Advocating Rumspringa = questions? One is action, the other thought. One says that finding the truth lies elsewhere, questions don’t.
“Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon writes that although it is important to understand the arguments, it is equally important to accept what you agreed to. Otherwise, you will have a different faith every day, and you’d be coming back, and switching between, religions twice a day.”
I believe a questioner today would first ask, did I agree to it (don’t answer that question, it’s not the point)? Should they?
Having a different faith daily is implying that one won’t reach the right answer. How do you know? Additionally, If that is the case are you advocating doing something which if you think about it you wouldn’t do it?
frum,
In general it says:
?? ??… ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???
-Rambam Hilchos Milochim Umilchamosehem 10,1
Kozov –
A) They know it is wrong generally, but think that their deity commanded it.
B) We must have laws that punish actions. This does not define culpability.
Frum
” A) They know it is wrong generally, but think that their deity commanded it.”
They are guilty because they should have investigated more and had more education. Rav Dessler clearly says that one is responsible for anything that he could or should have learned. So basically if one changed their bechira point by making conscious bad choices or if he follows a bad path because he neglected to study and look into it more he is responsible. So basically Rav Desslers case of one not being responsible will be nearly impossible to find except by someone who is a prisoner or such where they have zero access to any other info.
WIY – I agree that it is exceptionally rare to have an innocent murderer, and that no human can judge this.
My questions, however, don’t go away because of the extreme example I used.
Wisey says: Haleivi- as I quoted before infinity cannot be divided into parts, even an infinite amount. (Shaar Hayichud) also space is finite that is why we are told not to delve into “mah l’maaleh, mah l’matah”
Which is why I wrote, “Our perception of space.” I’m talking about the concept of how any person relates to it.
Now, The Chovos Halevavos is not a Halacha Sefer, he is explaining and reasoning with you. He explains the logic of that statement that if you subtract a part then you’d have the infinite n-1 which obviouslt can’t be infinite. Then, if you put it back you’d have the new number+1 which can’t equal infinity, because they are two finite numbers.
That statement has nothing at all to do with relating to an area of an infinite object with finite rules. The problem he raises is about separating a part, or considering that it is made up of actual parts. As long as the finite divisions are not divisions of the whole object but are relating to the area that is in focus, these problems aren’t at play
Frumnotyeshivish
I’m not sure where we are holding. What is your question at this point?
Haleivi- actully according to “our perception of space” we couldn’t live in part of it.
What you are essentially saying now is that there is no such concept as infinity. If you can’t point to any single area of the infinite object then there’s nothing of which to discuss.When the Sefarim try to prove that time is finite they do not use your argument to say that since there is a day time can’t be infinite. There is a fundamental mistake here.
When you read an argument in a Sefer it has to make sense to you to the degree that you can argue the theory itself without saying, well such and such Sefer says so. I don’t think you can do that in this case.
Haleivi- actully according to “our perception of space” we couldn’t live in part of it.
“It is known that there is an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.”
^_^
frumnotyeshivish –
I think that someone raised in a Taliban environment who goes and kills people for the sake of his religion is not a bad person. It is not his fault. At the same time, I wouldn’t really call him a person at all. He is simply a robot; a product of the system. There are people like that in every culture, perhaps far more than not. They’re not bad, but they’re not good either. They’re nothing.
“One Of Many”- What you have quoted is absolute rubbish. Hashem made a FINITE world with FINITE space. The quote you gave exemplifies kefira-heresy.
The quote you shamelessly gave is from a secular book – I have warned everyone that most secular books are forbidden:
yitayningwut – so then my question is, is it better to be nothing or to be something?
ready now – slow down… “I have warned everyone that most secular books are forbidden.” You have? Wow. And they didn’t listen? Who do THEY think THEY are?
I suppose everything turns on how all-encompassing the term “heresy” is. Is it infinite? Being that in your world it encompasses everything you don’t agree with, maybe it is…
frumnotyeshivish –
You have to decide that for yourself.
Ready, I don’t know what was quoted but it was obvious to me that it was a joke. Besides, whether true or not, believing something is infinite is not Kefira.
Well, duh it was a joke…
…unless you think everyone you know is a hallucination…?
In any case OneOfMany looks like he/she is sorry for the lapse of sanity.
RN – my orifice is pathetically anti-jewish? Please explain.
All I did was to focus on YOUR reaction to another post. Someone posted a secular quote. Your response was that they didn’t listen to YOUR warning, and that kfira is assur to read. Being that this was self-centered, illogical, and not focused on the only possible argument you have – WHY the quote is kfira – I called you on it.
If you wish to attack what I say, please feel free. Just focus on what I say, and why you are attacking me.
Oh, I’m never sorry for that… ^_^
yitayningwut: I don’t think there’s such a thing as “nothing,” because I don’t think bechirah and conditioning are mutually exclusive. Like, as FFBs we live as Torah Jews because we are conditioned to, but we also constantly seek to renew our faith and make conscious decisions. Also, I don’t think there’s such a thing as a decision that’s entirely devoid of bechirah.
ready now – You googled it. Course you did. Do you google all posts you don’t like to see if they’re word-for-word quotes from random secular books?
Is it compulsory to stop arguing for Torah just because you said so? No. ( That is just one of the reasons your comments are SO un -Jewish).
OneOfMany – What you are saying is of course the ideal. We should be constantly seeking to renew our faith and make conscious decisions. But my (perhaps overly skeptical) observation is that most people are pretty complacent and don’t care to do so on a really conscious level. Furthermore, even among people who do constantly seek to renew their faith and make conscious decisions, it seems to me that a large portion of them only do so within the confines of the Matrix, so to speak, i.e. they allow their entire train of conscious thought to be controlled by preconceived notions which they never developed consciously at all. So even if there is conscious growth, it isn’t really the individual’s, but the system’s.
As for your second point: I’m not sure R’ Dessler would agree, and the questioner seems to be interested in his position. But leaving that aside, how does it really change things? Even if there isn’t no bechirah at all, wouldn’t you concede that the bechira of a conditioned person is negligible?
OneOfMany – True, no one really starts with a blank slate, as you explained. And you anticipated my response by saying, “even if you actively verify with conscious thought what you already believe all the way back to its foundation, you will eventually find that your reasoning must be predicated on some truth that you cannot validate.” However, I don’t accept your conclusion. For even if you find, as you say, that your reasoning must be predicated on some truth that you cannot validate; it is still your choice whether or not to accept that assumption which you cannot validate.
Here’s how I see things. Let’s divide up people’s actions into two categories; Day to Day Affairs and General Way of Life. Day to Day Affairs presents choices such as deciding between Walmart and Target. General Way of Life has choices such as deciding between Judaism and Zoroastrianism. In Day to Day Affairs I find it easy to accept that there is a realm of free choice which most people tap into. But in General Way of Life I find it difficult, mainly because I don’t think many people consider changing their way of life that you could say they ever made the conscious decision to stay. I do think that everyone has a “nekudas habechira,” but I think most people’s is limited to their Day to Day Affairs. But what is the significance of bechira in Day to Day Affairs when one’s General Way of Life is determined by the establishment and not by one’s own choice? What is the significance in the free choice one utilizes to wake up for davening when it is done only because of a premise one did not choose? Frumnotyehsivish is right; the Taliban fellow is no more a “bad” person than a frum Jew who never thought about his or her General Way of Life. Neither are bad; they’re both robots; utilizing free choice only when it comes to questions of apples and oranges.
I guess I am a bit confused about the concept in that the more I agree with it the more I fail to see its relevance.
it is still your choice whether or not to accept that assumption which you cannot validate.
Hmm, that’s true.
I dunno. Essentially I agree with you – a person who doesn’t think about why they are doing what they are doing isn’t using bechirah. I just don’t see bechirah as something that you have or don’t have – in terms of the robot, I see it as just in an inert state.
yitay and OoM thanks for responding. I will focus on what you wrote later. I can’t help but address another point at this juncture. Please forgive me for getting sidetracked away from an interesting conversation.
My orifice disagrees with you.
It was my understanding from the sources you quoted above that the secular book is not assur per se but only because of what’s within it. That makes one count.
As to that one count, once again, please define kfira. Is it defined by writing something that violates the Rambam’s 13 ikrim?
OoM’s quote didn’t do that as far as I was able to see.
Is a silly novel, written by a kofer, kfira? I am not saying it isn’t. Nor am I saying it is.
You are saying it is. From where do you get this knowledge?
Now the question is, is a short neutral quote, of a joke, from a silly novel, written by a kofer, kfira?
You said it exemplifies kfira. Based on your warning.
The problem is that your warning isn’t halacha. Halacha is halacha. Focusing on what you said is self-centered (because it’s really about what God said) and arrogant (because it assuming that we are supposed to care about what you warned).
Douglas Adams would shep so much nachas from this conversation…
frum, it’s hard to tell when you are quoting and when it is you talking. Perhaps you can do what others do and use the format quoting using:
HaLeiVi:…
or
Wisey- …
or surround the quote in quotes, put it in <em></em> tags or <blockquote></blockquote>.
Frumnot,Yeshivishnot.
For that we use our brain. However as a first line of defence, not reading any garbage in the Coffee Room is the best use of the brain.
Be warned, the Coffee Room is forbidden by Halacha because the Gadolim said so.
FNYN, your very unfortunate orifice is shamelessly spewing forth yet again.
Our bodies are NOT Hashem – it is our neshamas that are part of Hashem.
Are you telling me now that your Neshama is holier than the Torah!?
Yitayningwut says, “[T]he Taliban fellow is no more a “bad” person than a frum Jew who never thought about his or her General Way of Life.”
This is where I disagree. Being brought up bad makes you bad, although it may not really be your fault. Beis Din Shel Matta has a Chiyuv to punish such a person, and is Mekayem ????? ??? ??????. Once he goes up, Hashem judges the heart.
Some people are lucky to be good, but they are good. Perhaps Zechus Avos assists in giving someone natural good Middos. Having good Middos, which makes Yiras Shamayim much more probable, no doubt brings him Zechusim. Hashem also sends Mitzvos your way. Not everyone is Zoche to give Tzedaka, to die Al Kiddush Hashem, to Duchen, to learn, or even to have proper Kavana. ?? ??? ??????.
Halevi- You wrote “Are you telling me now that your Neshama is holier than the Torah!?”
Halevi- what do we mourn most, a person who has passed on, or a Torah scroll? I told you above: the Holy Torah is not Hashem, but that our Jewish neshamas are a part of Hashem.
This is yet more proof of how the CR is interfering in normal thought processes-get out of the CR and the internet.
The internet and Cr are an addiction, which is a form of idolatry.
I am formally asking for a rav to specifically ban the YWN and CR as being included in the ban against the internet.
People who have the wisdom of getting a filter for the internet which would allow YWN to come onto their computer are given NO protection against the UTTER filth and twisted anti-Torah garbage posted in the CR.
This is an incorrect idea, as the people who go to the CR do not have time to even look at any advertisments. Further, the whole CR is an abomination, you would not want it whether you got money out of it or not.
The Coffee Room (CR) is actually interfering with advertisers potential for parnassah!
“Where did you get the idea that the Torah was literally infinite? The Torah is described as an ocean. Oceans are very very big, and very, very deep, but they aren’t infinite.”
benignuman, actually it is described as wider than the ocean, and this is what that means:
???? (????? ???): ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???, ??? ?? ???????
???? ???? ?? ??? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???????
??? ??? ?? ?????, ?????: (???? ??): ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??
– ?????? ??? ? ?
It is infinite because it is supernal wisdom. Consequently new insights will always be uncovered. -?? ????
And by your own admission readynow, it is not dependent on any other existence.
Realize, you are comparing a Sefer Torah to the Neshama. The Sefer is the Guf. The Torah itself is what I am talking about, not a specific Sefer Torah. The Torah doesn’t get lost and we don’t mourn it. And, indeed, Torah as a whole supersedes life.
Now that you took this to another dimension, and decided to revert to name calling for fear of losing an argument, Rachmana Litzlan, this discussion will terminate. I feel I am conversing with someone whose thoughts went through a nuclear accelerator. They are getting stranger as they go further from the core.
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