PETA

gmab:

Patience is a virtue.

Do you support aborting the unborn fetuses of animals, or just human abortion?

Stupidity? I don’t think so.

R’ Eliezer Waldenberg permits abortion of a fetus with a life-threatening illness such as Tay-Sachs until the end of the second trimester, and abortion of a fetus with an illness that would cause it to suffer until the end of the first trimester.

The Gemara says that a fetus is considered “mere water” and not an actual life until it is forty days old.

now?

To quote, Mr/Ma’am, Give Me a Break, “If you’re pro-life, shouldn’t you be pro- the life of innocent animals?”

To answer your question, nope I am NOT pro life for animals.

Let me ask you this:

If you had to make a “choice,” to save the life of a kitty or the life of a baby, who would you save? There is BIG difference between the two. You can’t compare the life of a person to the life of an animal.

Me believing in pro life (humans), has no comparison to “pro life,” of animals.

You claim to not support ALL of what PETA is, but you question my beliefs on not supporting ALL pro life subjects, i.e. animals. A little contradicting, don’t you think?

p.s. A fetus has their first heartbeat at 5 weeks, (this is usually around the time a women finds out she is even pregnant).

Now I’m off to enjoy my juicy steak dinner…YUMMY!

Easy for a, “man,” to say, “pro choice,” when it is impossible for you to ever make such a decision. Stick to things you can control, like being a vegetarian.

Believe what you will, but STOP imposing those beliefs on the members of YWN. You don’t seem to like when people do it to you, so why are you doing it back?

p.s.

I ENJOY & LOVE EATING MEAT! 😉 yummmmmmmm

That’s fine, but you didn’t respond to my quote from the Gemara. (And by the way, R’ Waldenberg is a renowned expert on medical ethics, so I would trust his opinion over others’.)

It’s true that most women don’t find out that they’re pregnant until after forty days. But if they do find out before then, I don’t see a problem with terminating the pregnancy.

Give Me a Break – Glad we got that cleared up. & p.s. I love animals (like I’ve mentioned in my previous posts). Where I was from, my family was famous for owning tons of animals (their accommodations were very acceptable, we had a large house with a huge fenced in yard). At one point we had 3 dogs (a 2 dobermans, & a newfoundland), several cats (including persian, himalayan, siamese, maine coon, & mixed.), a large turtle, hamsters, over 40 various breeds of birds (my mom bred birds as well), and more!

Back then we were called, “The *_____ Farm.” hehehe.

I don’t think animals should be killed for game, non medical & non food related reasons. As for animals being killed for food, I’m all for that. And those are my beliefs.

Remember, morality is relative. I can give examples, but we’re all grown up here, and I think everyone can use their imagination’s.

*name withheld

Animals are very nutritious, filled with protein, iron, omega fatty acids, B vitamins, and much more. I don’t think about the killing of the animal while eating it. I was raised for the love of eating meat, so in my eyes it is not an immoral act. I absolutely love food, and meat is just one of those foods I crave.

Your morals are against eating animals and pro choice.

My morals are for the eating of animals and pro life.

gmab: I very much enjoy eating meat. My oneg Shabbos wouldn’t be the same without having a nice hot cholent with a good piece of meat in it. I’m not just saying that, I’ve had times where I didn’t have a cholent, and I told my wife it just didn’t feel like a real Shabbos without it.

Therefore, for oneg Shabbos, I need to eat meat.

Does that satisfy you?

Remember, when Moshiach comes, you will eat a Korban Pesach, and probably won’t have any problem with it.

No, I don’t; I’ve never made it, but tasted it many times at friends’ Shabbos tables. I recommend you try it. There are probably some good recipes on the Web.

I’ll have my steak.

GMAB,

Regarding the first argument, I do believe that the world and all of its living creatures was created for people, to enable us to serve Hashem, so it’s approppriate for people to use the world’s resources to fulfill this task. This can, in my opinion, include eating moderate amounts of meat, and in my opinion definitely includes the use of animals in medical research.

As humans, we are told not to treat animals cruelly. Also, we humans have the responsibility to use the earth’s resources wisely and do what we can to preserve them. This is a simple application of the mitzvas lo ta’aseh of “bal tashchis”, not wasting.

In Bereishis Rabba (9:4) two Sages offer parables for the verse (Bereishis 1:31), “And G-d saw all that He had done, and behold, it was very good,” as follows:

Rabbi Yonasan said: [It may be compared to] a king who married off his daughter and made a canopy and a house for her, and he plastered it and paneled it and painted it; he saw it and it was pleasing to him. He said to her: My daughter, may this canopy display grace before me at all times, just as you have displayed grace before me at this time.

In a similar vein he interprets God’s blessing to Adam and his wife following their creation in verse 28:

GMAB (is it ok if I abbreviate your name?),

I don’t believe that the world’s creatures were created to serve man; I believe that they, and everything else in the world, were created to enable people to serve Hashem. My source for this is B’raishis 1:28-30, in which Hashem tells Adam & Chava to rule the earth (and in B’raishis 9:3 people are given permission to eat meat).

Thank you Joseph for taking the time to answer that. I don’t think any one argues that we have to be carefull in how we treat animals. The aveira of Tzar Ba’ali chaim is a deoriesa and not one to be treated lightly. However, after 120 years I would be worried about coming to terms with having to explain why I didn’t use something so readily available (in this case an animal) in my service to Hashem. Life is indeed precious but for what reason are we all created? To eat drink and be merry or to recognize Hashem and serve him (while making this a better world in it’s process) So too, there is more to life then grazing and eating grass. They have a purpose and we have a right to utilize it for our needs as well.

As for after 120 years, I’m in the good company of many Tzaddikim so I don’t put to much thought behind it. I have spoken about this topic to many Robbonim and they have told me that I have nothing to worry about.

No, I think he’s saying that many tzaddikim are meat-eaters, so he thinks that if they’re not worried, he shouldn’t be.

However, I as a vegetarian am also “in the good company of many Tzaddikim”, among them the notable Rav Kook.

GMAB:

Many murderers wore pants too.

You clearly just want to yak and stretch out this conversation by saying the most ridiculous things.

jf02:

Do you “pick and choose” a different sage for every issue, to meet your liking and approval? Or do you take one posek and follow him regardless of whether you agree or not.

You quote Rav Kook. Rav Kook also opposed women wearing pants (see his Sefer) and opposed women voting.

Actually, I did not quote Rav Kook, I simply mentioned that he too was vegetarian, so I am on solid footing.

(By the way, many murderers do in fact wear pants, but most murderers are male!)

I have not read Rav Kook’s sefer and therefore cannot comment on his prohibition on pants. I have, however, read his 1919 teshuva stating that women should not vote. First, he clearly states in the beginning of the document that he is not really qualified to address the issue and is only writing an opinion because he was asked to by others. Second, remember that he did write this in 1919, at the peak of the women’s suffrage movement. His belief that women should not vote was founded on fears that he had of what such a step would lead to, as outlined later in the document. With the benefit of the passage of time, we can clearly see that these fears were, thankfully, not realized.

I won’t deny that I am influenced by modern society, and sometimes I unconsciously draw conclusions about what is right based on modernity and then have issues when this conflicts with Torah ideas of what is right. I am dealing with this in my own way and I believe that it is an inevitable problem; we just all have it to different degrees. I admire you for sticking by one posek even when you don’t agree with him. But that’s just it- there are instances where you don’t agree with him, where what he says intuitively feels wrong to you! Where do you think this intuitive feeling comes from? Even if you ignore the feeling, you can’t get away from the fact that it exists.

I am not yet a parent, but I can well imagine the tremendous feeling of conflict that faced Avraham Avinu in this week’s parsha. Even putting aside the fact that Hashem had said that an entire nation would come out of Avraham through the line of Yitzchak- who did not have any offspring at the time of the Akeidah- how could Avraham raise his hand to slay his own child? Ideally, we should strive to be on Avraham’s level and have complete faith, but this is not always possible. Child sacrifice is one of those things that seems intuitively and undoubtedly wrong. Yet Avraham accepted it without question. If I were in his position, I think I would fail this test utterly, as would most of today’s Jews.

So, to answer your question directly, I’ll admit that I do “pick and choose” at times, but I would never do something that all poskim unanimously prohibit. (For example, secular society clearly sees nothing wrong with premarital relations, but I recognize that there is no allowance for this within a Torah framework and therefore would not ever consider engaging in such relations.) I would like to be in a place where I can be more consistent in my observance of halacha, and this is something that I am working on, but I am simply not there yet.

GMAB, feminist: if you do some research, you’ll find that Rav Kook wasn’t really a vegetarian. He wrote a pamphlet about his vision for a perfect world, where he said that maybe people would be on the level before the flood and wouldn’t eat meat anymore, but he never advocated being a vegetarian now. He ate only vegetables for a small while for health reasons, but was not a vegetarian for most of his life.

Do some research, you’ll find it.

GMAB: I’m glad that I have made you laugh (yes I know this is just an expression like us being the apathetic imbeciles you say we are) but regardless…

Quote #1: You make me laugh. Are you saying you’re such a tzaddik you have nothing to worry about?

Response: While I can see how you would come to think that was the point I was trying to state, however when looking in context, my reference was in regards to eating meat. There are plenty of things that I will (then and now) have to worry about but eating meat isn’t one of them. I have a source from the Torah that permits me to eat meat. I have the shulchan orach and mishnah brurah that states how meat is preferable to eat in many situations and I have the example of many many Tzaddikim and Gedolim who have no problem today eating meat.

Quote #2: Many murderers ate meat too.

Response: Thank you, but I already knew that. So have many electricians, plumbers and I would even bet many doctors, lawyers and presidents eat meat too. Eating meat does not make me a Tzaddik nor does not eating it. It’s the big picture of all our actions that make us who we are.

Quote #3: Does the permission to eat meat override the prohibition of tza’ar ba’alei Chaim?

I don’t exactly think so.

Response: No, it doesn’t, but then again you have failed to provide a situation where eating all meat and fowl is considered Tzar Ba’ali Chaim. Being that I have connections to many individuals who have worked in meat and chicken slaughter houses I have taken the time to call them up and have yet to find a place that would be problematic. Then I spoke to several local (and not so local) poskim who deal with meat” kashrus and asked them what they feel about it and they all said it was ok both regards to kashrus and Tzar Ba’alei Chaim.

So, do I think that there are “some” people who are abuse animals for profit and gain…Yes I have seen it and have spoken out against it. Is there a reason to stop eating meat…….no there isn’t. I have spoken to Da’as Torah and have yet to see any benefit of going above and beyond what they our representatives of G-d have spoken to me.

Quote #4 (out of order but placed last since it was not directed towards me)

Does it REALLY help us serve HaShem?

You may have a valid point, but consider the following: The way animals are farmed today, don’t you think that (considering it IS helping you serve HaShem) it’s a Mitzvah haba b’aveira (tza’ar ba’alei chayim)?

Response: This is your opinion. You seem to be quite out numbered by the many leaders of our generation who do eat meat.

Now, after all is said and done. It’s nice that you have a cause. It’s nice that you live towards something that you believe to be important. However, you still have yet to bring a proof why we shouldn’t eat meat and you have failed to provide proof that animals are being treated poorly in all situations. You do a disservice to us and yourself to try to guilt us into believing in your cause. The bottom line is that I see nothing wrong and can see that many others who much bigger and greater than I am feel the same way. Somehow if there would be a legitimate concern for this, then there would be more vegetarians out there and yet there are not.

Joseph, let me amend my statement: I would never do something that all ORTHODOX poskim unanimously prohibit.

Of course, there are many people in the world with the title of “Rabbi” who permit actions that I feel are wrong. I am referring here to rabbis of more liberal movements, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. I have a great deal of respect for these rabbis, but I lead a different lifestyle than they do and would never pasken according to their teshuvot. So, no, I don’t do “whatever I want”.

torahls1, you ask “Since when does a human being get to mandate how animals should be treated?”

Since it says in Bereshit that we should “fill the earth and dominate it.” With this dominance comes a responsibility to ensure that when we use animals for our own purposes, we treat them humanely. This does not mean treating them as if they are human; if that were the case, we certainly would not be permitted to eat meat! Rather, it means remembering that WE are human, and as such are capable of feeling compassion. We need to exercise our compassionate natures in our dealings with animals.

For reasons that I hope are obvious to you, I’m not going to respond to the rest of your illogical rant.